teddyaware Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Is there a difference between non-essential and not a fundamental principle? I think in the answer to that is the answer to your question. Within the framework of the gospel, I don’t see any noteworthy differences in meaning between between essential and fundamental principles of the gospel. Although not mentioned in Joseph Smith’s testimony on the centrality of the death and resurrection of Christ, do you believe repentance, baptism, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost are all essental principles of salvation, in spite of the fact that they are “appendages,” or are all or any one of these less than essential to salvation? 1
The Nehor Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 20 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: GREAT analogy! edit: I have a vague recollection of Paul doing something similar, claiming to represent the "unknown God" the Greeks included in their pantheon, covering their hineys in case they had left one out. I think it is more likely that Paul was trying to play the Greek’s game and making a philosophical argument for God. It seems to have been a bust. 2
Rivers Posted January 27, 2022 Author Posted January 27, 2022 11 minutes ago, teddyaware said: Within the framework of the gospel, I don’t see any noteworthy differences in meaning between between essential and fundamental principles of the gospel. Although not mentioned in Joseph Smith’s testimony on the centrality of the death and resurrection of Christ, do you believe repentance, baptism, the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost are all essental principles of salvation, in spite of the fact that they are “appendages,” or are all or any one of these less than essential to salvation? They are appendages in that they are merely a means to an end. 1
rpn Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 My reply is that one doesn't have to have a testimony of any doctrine or principle to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. We just have to have a tiny seed size of a mustard hope, Baptism, and do our personal best to live the commandments and quickly repent of actual sin to be perfect in Christ in each moment of our lives, through the atonement. (Granted it is not at all easy to do when one hasn't get gotten a testimony, but our Heavenly Parents and Savior take us wherever we are if we are working on it.) 1
The Nehor Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 29 minutes ago, rpn said: My reply is that one doesn't have to have a testimony of any doctrine or principle to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. We just have to have a tiny seed size of a mustard hope, Baptism, and do our personal best to live the commandments and quickly repent of actual sin to be perfect in Christ in each moment of our lives, through the atonement. (Granted it is not at all easy to do when one hasn't get gotten a testimony, but our Heavenly Parents and Savior take us wherever we are if we are working on it.) I thought the faith was the mustard seed? Now I have to have two mustard seeds? 1
Calm Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rpn said: Baptism Are we not disciples even if we haven’t reached the baptism stage yet if we are seeking in faith/hope? Edited January 28, 2022 by Calm 2
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rpn said: My reply is that one doesn't have to have a testimony of any doctrine or principle to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. We just have to have a tiny seed size of a mustard hope, Baptism, and do our personal best to live the commandments and quickly repent of actual sin to be perfect in Christ in each moment of our lives, through the atonement. (Granted it is not at all easy to do when one hasn't get gotten a testimony, but our Heavenly Parents and Savior take us wherever we are if we are working on it.) A disciple of Christ isn't necessarily a member of his church. I was a disciple of Christ before I became a member of his church. And I thought I was a member of his church until I found out what the true church of Jesus Christ IS in these latter days. Edited January 28, 2022 by James 1 5 edited to emphasize IS
The Nehor Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 16 hours ago, James 1 5 said: A disciple of Christ isn't necessarily a member of his church. I was a disciple of Christ before I became a member of his church. And I thought I was a member of his church until I found out what the true church of Jesus Christ IS in these latter days. The Unitarians?
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The Unitarians? Nope. One of those other churches that is not the true church of Jesus Christ.
The Nehor Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 1 hour ago, James 1 5 said: Nope. One of those other churches that is not the true church of Jesus Christ. I was asking if the Unitarians were the true one.
HappyJackWagon Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 On 1/26/2022 at 6:16 PM, The Nehor said: “Do not try to locate the line where God will not go. That is impossible. Instead….try to realize the truth.” ”What truth?” ”There is no line.” And that is terrifying. Nice Matrix reference. On 1/26/2022 at 5:11 PM, bluebell said: Everyone has that place where they draw their personal lines in the sand. That place where they say "God will go this far, and no farther." All that we really disagree on is where the line is. This is true. Everyone has a line. I have a devout friend who is getting married in a month. He and his fiancé decided NOT to get married in the temple because of the mask requirement. Whatever floats his boat I guess 1
rongo Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: This is true. Everyone has a line. I have a devout friend who is getting married in a month. He and his fiancé decided NOT to get married in the temple because of the mask requirement. Whatever floats his boat I guess They should ask the temple about that. @Rain said her daughter and husband didn't have to in Mesa for their sealing. As I've said before, we haven't been asked to mask in Gilbert or Mesa (endowments, own endowments, own initiatories). It would be a real hardliner who would insist that that the bride and groom in a live sealing wear masks at the altar. No kiss, or would a kiss be like taking the mask off in a restaurant? I can understand not wanting to look like The Shredder at your own live sealing, as you are asked to look into the mirrors reflecting eternity.
Rain Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, rongo said: They should ask the temple about that. @Rain said her daughter and husband didn't have to in Mesa for their sealing. As I've said before, we haven't been asked to mask in Gilbert or Mesa (endowments, own endowments, own initiatories). It would be a real hardliner who would insist that that the bride and groom in a live sealing wear masks at the altar. No kiss, or would a kiss be like taking the mask off in a restaurant? I can understand not wanting to look like The Shredder at your own live sealing, as you are asked to look into the mirrors reflecting eternity. No. They were sealed in Gilbert and were asked that everyone have one. I didn't see a single person without one. But this was back in the beginning of November. Agh. Wait. Sorry. I was thinking my husband, not hers with the way you worded it. She actually did wear it into the temple. It was only within the sealing room where it was off. Edited January 28, 2022 by Rain 1
rongo Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 52 minutes ago, Rain said: No. They were sealed in Gilbert and were asked that everyone have one. I didn't see a single person without one. But this was back in the beginning of November. Agh. Wait. Sorry. I was thinking my husband, not hers with the way you worded it. She actually did wear it into the temple. It was only within the sealing room where it was off. That's what I mean. I think it's very presumptuous and premature to decide to get married civilly instead of sealed (in the U.S.) because the nominal temple policy is masking. Especially without talking to a member of the temple presidency and asking if the couple will have to wear one at their live sealing. I'll bet the answer in all but the most hard-core temples is "no" (I know that @Scott Lloyd has said that Draper asks and insists on it, but Jordan River didn't say anything, either. And would Draper insist on the bride and groom wearing them at the altar for the ceremony, and then allowing removal for a kiss? I doubt it). We've never been asked to wear one when we've gone (nobody says anything when we walk in or anywhere else, and there have been others not wearing them, too). There has never been any tension or conflict, and we would have worn one if directly asked to. But what we've found through this whole thing with stores, restaurants, etc. is that despite the posted signs, we haven't actually been asked/reminded to wear one. The signs are posted to make certain people feel better, but few people really want to be mask police. The same thing has been true in wards and temples in our experience.
The Nehor Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 People wanting to see the lower face of their spouse before and even during their wedding? Scandalous and obscene if you ask me. 3
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 3 hours ago, The Nehor said: I was asking if the Unitarians were the true one.
Rain Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Nice Matrix reference. This is true. Everyone has a line. I have a devout friend who is getting married in a month. He and his fiancé decided NOT to get married in the temple because of the mask requirement. Whatever floats his boat I guess Is it possible that is only one of the reasons? My daughter is devout, but chose civil marriage and then sealing because 1. they wanted certain people close to them be able to be at the wedding 2. to have a small sealing when making covenants. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 22 hours ago, rpn said: My reply is that one doesn't have to have a testimony of any doctrine or principle to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Well one would presumably have to have a testimony of Christ? Or are you suggesting you can follow Christ without believing in him or his atonement? 1
rongo Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 Just now, Rain said: Is it possible that is only one of the reasons? My daughter is devout, but chose civil marriage and then sealing because 1. they wanted certain people close to them be able to be at the wedding 2. to have a small sealing when making covenants. I was thinking that, too. I think there are probably other reasons besides mask policy, such as what you mentioned. Especially since they can be sealed any time after the civil wedding.
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 3 hours ago, rongo said: (I know that @Scott Lloyd has said that Draper asks and insists on it, but Jordan River didn't say anything, either.) Perhaps now would be a good time to review the First Presidency direction: On September 22, 2021, the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sent this letter to Church leaders around the world. The letter is also available in French, German, Italian, Japanese, Portuguese, Spanish and Russian. Dear Brothers and Sisters: We are grateful that in recent months, some level of ordinance work has resumed in every temple. Our desire is to keep temples open. As cases of COVID-19 increase in many areas, we want to do everything possible to allow temples to remain open. Therefore, effective immediately, all temple patrons and workers are asked to wear face masks at all times while in the temple. These safety protocols are temporary, based on COVID-19 conditions, and will be rescinded as soon as circumstances permit. Our urging Church members to be vaccinated and to protect themselves and others from the spread of disease has precedent. Prior First Presidencies shared similar messages in 1900 about smallpox and in 1957 regarding polio. Please do all you can to protect yourself and others so the work of the Lord on both sides of the veil can move forward. Sincerely yours, Russell M. Nelson Dallin H. Oaks Henry B. Eyring 3
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 On 1/27/2022 at 7:05 PM, Calm said: Are we not disciples even if we haven’t reached the baptism stage yet if we are seeking in faith/hope? A disciple is, by definition, a follower. From 2 Nephi: 10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? 11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. 12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.
Calm Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: A disciple is, by definition, a follower. From 2 Nephi: 10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? 11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. 12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Lots haven’t been invited to be baptized though or cannot participate yet. Or have an incomplete idea of baptism even if they have very developed discipleship in serving others and helping the poor, for example. It we can’t be considered followers until we know everything we must do as followers, none of us qualify to be called disciples of Christ. Line upon line and all. For some baptism might be an early line, for others it comes much later. 4
Scott Lloyd Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 43 minutes ago, Calm said: Lots haven’t been invited to be baptized though or cannot participate yet. Or have an incomplete idea of baptism even if they have very developed discipleship in serving others and helping the poor, for example. It we can’t be considered followers until we know everything we must do as followers, none of us qualify to be called disciples of Christ. Line upon line and all. For some baptism might be an early line, for others it comes much later. I think that undergirding the concept of discipleship is commitment. Baptism signifies commitment. 1
Calm Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think that undergirding the concept of discipleship is commitment. Baptism signifies commitment. What is your point? Surely not that no one can be treated as committed unless they are baptized…and I am assuming you mean baptized by the priesthood and not baptisms in other faiths? Do you believe there were disciples of Christ in the centuries the Church was not around? Do you believe there are disciples of Christ in locations today the Church does not have access to? 1
bluebell Posted January 29, 2022 Posted January 29, 2022 7 minutes ago, Calm said: What is your point? Surely not that no one can be treated as committed unless they are baptized…and I am assuming you mean baptized by the priesthood and not baptisms in other faiths? Do you believe there were disciples of Christ in the centuries the Church was not around? Do you believe there are disciples of Christ in locations today the Church does not have access to? I think of the "famous in church circles" Vincenzo Di Francesca, who discovered a BOM without a cover or title page in 1910 while he was in New York, read it, prayed about it, learned it was true, and taught from it as a Methodist pastor for years before he ever found out what the book was called or which church it belonged to. Eventually he was excommunicated from his church because he refused to stop teaching from the book, and refused to burn it. He was sent back to Italy. Eventually he did learn what the book was and what church it belong too and wanted to be baptized, but by then Europe was dealing with WWI and eventually WWII and church headquarters could not get anyone near Di Francesca to baptize him. He ended up having to wait until 1951 (and was the church's first baptism in Sicily). I would say that he was definitely a devoted disciple of Christ for all of those years, despite not having been baptized. 3
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