Nonnegotiable

[Navidad]

What do you all think are the non-negotiables for Christ at the final judgment, or if you believe in multiple judgments, at whichever judgment determines the interviewee's final destiny? The question assumes that the decision will be to live forever with Christ and the Father for eternity, or for eternity absent from them, whether you think that is heaven and hell, or one of the five or six (I am not sure what how to label perdition) or so levels of LDS eternity? Let me provide several scenarios:

1. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the faithful LDS deceased person who has had all the "right" ordinances by the right authority and remained faithful?

2. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased person who lived from 200-160 BCE in northern Benin in west Africa, who never heard of Christ?

3. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased Navidad who lived in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries as a faithful servant of Christ in another Christian denomination and did not respond favorably to the LDS missionary in the spirit world? Or what if he did respond favorably there after living his mortal life in another faith?

4. What will be the criteria and questions asked of the deceased formerly faithful member of the LDS church who converted to another faith or who simply remained faith-agnostic after her departure from the LDS church?

5. What will be the criteria and questions asked of the faithless person who lived in the twenty-first century who investigated and rejected the LDS church? 

There are many permutations of what the actual situation will be of the  dead person standing at the judgment seat. But, that is enough. My wife and I had a long chat with our new bishop two nights ago. It was fascinating. That conversation and this thread has me asking the questions. Thanks in advance for any answers you might provide.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Navidad

[Olmec Donald]

Obviously this will just be my opinion, as a Number Four on your list.  This is my understanding of what matters most to Jesus Christ, based on what I think he emphasized in his teachings:

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

1. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the faithful LDS deceased person who has had all the "right" ordinances by the right authority and remained faithful?

How much did you love, and how much did you forgive? 

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

2. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased person who lived from 200-160 BCE in northern Benin in west Africa, who never heard of Christ?

How much did you love, and how much did you forgive?

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

3. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased Navidad who lived in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries as a faithful servant of Christ in another Christian denomination and did not respond favorably to the LDS missionary in the spirit world? Or what if he did respond favorably there after living his mortal life in another faith?

How much did you love, and how much did you forgive?

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

4. What will be the criteria and questions asked of the deceased formerly faith member of the LDS church who converted to another faith or who simply remained faith-agnostic after her departure from the LDS church?

How much did you love, and how much did you forgive?

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

5. What will be the criteria and questions asked of the faithless person who lived in the twenty-first century who investigated and rejected the LDS church? 

How much did you love, and how much did you forgive?

If there are also technicalities which need to be set in order, imo that will happen, but I don't think that is the primary thing we were put on earth to do. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think of the "famous in church circles" Vincenzo Di Francesca, who discovered a BOM without a cover or title page in 1910 while he was in New York, read it, prayed about it, learned it was true, and taught from it as a Methodist pastor for years before he ever found out what the book was called or which church it belonged to.  Eventually he was excommunicated from his church because he refused to stop teaching from the book, and refused to burn it.  He was sent back to Italy.

Eventually he did learn what the book was and what church it belong too and wanted to be baptized, but by then Europe was dealing with WWI and eventually WWII and church headquarters could not get anyone near Di Francesca to baptize him.  He ended up having to wait until 1951 (and was the church's first baptism in Sicily). 

I would say that he was definitely a devoted disciple of Christ for all of those years, despite not having been baptized.

There’s much to be said for having faith and for earnestly seeking truth. But it’s not quite the same thing as discipleship, which connotes a level of commitment and dedication such that one will readily receive the ordinance of baptism without equivocation, reservation or hesitation, and will “hunger and thirst” to obey all of the commandments of God. 
 

I’m well acquainted with the story of Vincenzo Di Francesca and have been for a long time. For many years, he knew the Book of Mormon only as “the book without a cover” because the copy he found was missing its cover and he could not find out more about it. I’m confident from what I understand that during those many years he would have jumped at the chance to be baptized by one having authority had he only been given the opportunity. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

What is your point?  Surely not that no one can be treated as committed unless they are baptized…and I am assuming you mean baptized by the priesthood and not baptisms in other faiths?

Do you believe there were disciples of Christ in the centuries the Church was not around?  Do you believe there are disciples of Christ in locations today the Church does not have access to?

I think my point is quite clearly expressed. See my reply to Bluebell above. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m confident from what I understand that during those many years he would have jumped at the chance to be baptized by one having authority had he only been given the opportunity. 

And yet he wasn’t baptized. If you call him a disciple then nonbaptized people can be disciples. 
 

If someone believes authority is outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and are baptized through that authority or would do so if they could, it seems appropriate to call them a disciple as they are following the commandment to be baptized according to the law they have been given so far to the best of their ability. 
 

If someone does not yet understand the need to be baptized, but would immediately accept baptism by authority if they realized it, it also seems appropriate to call them disciples as they are following the law they have been given to the best of their ability. 
 

Incomplete and imperfect in their understanding and therefore incomplete and imperfect in their action, but there are many who are baptized by the appropriate authority that are incomplete and imperfect in their discipleship. 
 

Discipleship starts where we stand and choose to make the first step. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

What do you all think are the non-negotiables for Christ at the final judgment, or if you believe in multiple judgments, at whichever judgment determines the interviewee's final destiny? The question assumes that the decision will be to live forever with Christ and the Father for eternity, or for eternity absent from them, whether you think that is heaven and hell, or one of the five or six (I am not sure what how to label perdition) or so levels of LDS eternity? Let me provide several scenarios:

1. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the faithful LDS deceased person who has had all the "right" ordinances by the right authority and remained faithful?

2. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased person who lived from 200-160 BCE in northern Benin in west Africa, who never heard of Christ?

3. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased Navidad who lived in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries as a faithful servant of Christ in another Christian denomination and did not respond favorably to the LDS missionary in the spirit world? Or what if he did respond favorably there after living his mortal life in another faith?

4. What will be the criteria and questions asked of the deceased formerly faithful member of the LDS church who converted to another faith or who simply remained faith-agnostic after her departure from the LDS church?

5. What will be the criteria and questions asked of the faithless person who lived in the twenty-first century who investigated and rejected the LDS church? 

There are many permutations of what the actual situation will be of the  dead person standing at the judgment seat. But, that is enough. My wife and I had a long chat with our new bishop two nights ago. It was fascinating. That conversation and this thread has me asking the questions. Thanks in advance for any answers you might provide.

Just to answer, I think no one knows, can know, or ever will know.

These are questions about mechanics, like science questions, of how things work

We should be thinking about WHY we make up theories about judgement and what purpose such theories have to make us one as Christians. 

It's using a scientific mode of thought on a topic that is not scientific!  How do we experiment on which theory is right?

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

2. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased person who lived from 200-160 BCE in northern Benin in west Africa, who never heard of Christ?

3. What will be His criteria and questions asked of the deceased Navidad who lived in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries as a faithful servant of Christ in another Christian denomination and did not respond favorably to the LDS missionary in the spirit world? Or what if he did respond favorably there after living his mortal life in another faith?

Surely you know the answer?  How could you not?

Ar you aware of why we do genealogy?

Our belief is that after you meet the person from Benin, and know more about the spirit worlds, you will both most likely be baptized choose to follow our way and be baptized, and have access to all the blessings we all can access, to be endowed and become like God. 

Frankly this is one reason I have never understood your objection to what you see as our superiority complex-- I betcha you will be baptized posthumously!!

See you then!  . 

 

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Just to answer, I think no one knows, can know, or ever will know.

These are questions about mechanics, like science questions, of how things work

We should be thinking about WHY we make up theories about judgement and what purpose such theories have to make us one as Christians. 

It's using a scientific mode of thought on a topic that is not scientific!  How do we experiment on which theory is right?

Exactly. I am sure you will be pleased (not) that I agree 100% with you! 😃

There is no way to know - but in absence of that knowledge,how can folks be so certain? I mean all folks - LDS and Non-LDS? The sin of certainty is at time ubiquitous - whether in matters of faith or of science. I think neither science nor faith teaches certainty. That is why we continue experimenting and developing and testing new hypotheses.

Developing new faith-related hypotheses about God is fairly easy, especially when there are claims of specific individual and direct revelation that themselves cannot be tested. I remember singing a song in Sunday School (our equivalent of Primary). The repeated words went like this "How do I Know? The Bible Tells Me So!" That is obviously simplistic and reductionist, but perhaps appropriate for little children's faith. We hear that enough, then we become youth who "know." Then adults who "know." We learn the specifics of our specific faiths over repeated years of teaching. 

I have a strong faith, but I have learned to differentiate that from certainty with the help of a few key teachers who approached things differently than my Sunday School teacher. I think it has made be a better person and Christian.

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Surely you know the answer?  How could you not?

Ar you aware of why we do genealogy?

Our belief is that after you meet the person from Benin, and know more about the spirit worlds, you will both most likely be baptized choose to follow our way and be baptized, and have access to all the blessings we all can access, to be endowed and become like God. 

Frankly this is one reason I have never understood your objection to what you see as our superiority complex-- I betcha you will be baptized posthumously!!

See you then!  . 

 

I think my post is more specific and literal than you have made it. It was not meant to rehash our disparate beliefs. It was meant to be quite literal. What do you think Christ's questions and comments will be during our interviews? Yes, I am aware or your beliefs. I am trying to be more granular? How will those beliefs actually play out in your interview with Christ? Do you believe you will be examined by Him prior to a decision, or will He simply know you were LDS on earth so he will wave you through without a glance? I am very serious in that question. What does "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" mean to you? To me it is a literal statement of a literal event I will participate in, just as real as my final dissertation review next year. My supervisor is already prepping me for the questions, especially from the outside examiner. I think that some day Christ will be that outside examiner of my life. I am uncertain as to the questions both I and you will be asked, or the comments that will be made. It is the final exam so-to-speak. I have tried to live as a faithful Christian. I do not believe (I certainly am not certain) that I will be waived through based on that faithfulness. As I said earlier, my wife and I also had a long conversation with our new bishop this week - about 2.5 hours in our living room. That has stirred my thinking about all of this as well. I thought an "essentials" thread is a good place to discuss perhaps the most essential place, time, and person in our eternal existence - the judgment seat. Thanks and have a great Sunday!

Edited January 30, 2022 by Navidad

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

 

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m confident from what I understand that during those many years he would have jumped at the chance to be baptized by one having authority had he only been given the opportunity. 

And yet he wasn’t baptized. 

 

I see a difference between someone like him and those who fail to embrace divine truth in its purity and fullness when it is offered to them. Again, a distinction between a seeker and a disciple. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

those who fail to embrace divine truth in its purity and fullness when it is offered to them.

So as long as baptism in the Restored Gospel isn’t offered someone, you would judge them a disciple if they were trying to follow Jesus?

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Discipleship starts where we stand and choose to make the first step. 

Faith and belief start there. Not necessarily discipleship. 
 

I don’t think either of us is going to convince the other on this. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

So as long as baptism in the Restored Gospel isn’t offered someone, you would judge them a disciple if they were trying to follow Jesus?

“… would you judge them…” (emphasis mine). 
 

A subtle attempt at well poisoning through word choice. Clever. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I think my post is more specific and literal than you have made it. It was not meant to rehash our disparate beliefs. It was meant to be quite literal. What do you think Christ's questions and comments will be during our interviews? Yes, I am aware or your beliefs. I am trying to be more granular? How will those beliefs actually play out in your interview with Christ? Do you believe you will be examined by Him prior to a decision, or will He simply know you were LDS on earth so he will wave you through without a glance? I am very serious in that question. What does "no man cometh unto the Father but by me" mean to you? To me it is a literal statement of a literal event I will participate in, just as real as my final dissertation review next year. My supervisor is already prepping me for the questions, especially from the outside examiner. I think that some day Christ will be that outside examiner of my life. I am uncertain as to the question both I and you will be asked, or the comments that will be made. It is the final exam so-to-speak. I have tried to live as a faithful Christian. I do not believe (I certainly am not certain) that I will be waived through based on that faithfulness. As I said earlier, my wife and I also had a long conversation with our new bishop this week - about 2.5 hours in our living room. That has stirred my thinking about all of this as well. I thought an "essentials" thread is a good place to discuss perhaps the most essential place, time, and person in our eternal existence - the judgment seat. Thanks and have a great Sunday!

I still don't understand.

We have temple recommend interviews, but Christ already knows our answers. Interviews are for US to put things into perspective, and see how comfortable we are with our progression.

Christ knows every thought in every heart, or silent prayer would not work.  And no, don't ask me How He does it.  It is a wonderful paradigm in which to believe,  but I am CERTAIN he does it, because He has blessed me with answers I could never have come up with my self

And your new bishop may have quite different opinions than your old one, I have not heard of non-members teaching lessons, praying for the company, or speaking in sacrament meetings.

I suspect no one else on the board has either

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

“… would you judge them…” (emphasis mine). 
 

A subtle attempt at well poisoning through word choice. Clever. 

Not in the least.  I don’t play those kinds of games.  I am not trying to discredit anyone right now, it is not that common of an activity for me. And those I do attempt to persuade others they are wrong, I will do so with their own original words and actions as paraphrases and misquotes just make me look sloppy too often and more likely I will look like a jerk.
 

 I’m trying to figure out why it seems so Important to you to draw a line for discipleship when you don’t appear to be drawing lines for Christian, for example. 

It feels like the same sort of discussion I had with a good friend of why he would never pray with me.  Once he explained the reasoning (confusing someone currently unsaved about their salvation which praying with them might give the appearance their beliefs were acceptable to Christ when they are not in his view is not being kind to them), he had a very valid point and I wouldn’t have prayed with me either if I held the same beliefs about salvation out of concern and love.

If “judge” has a nuance you don’t like, what about identify or evaluate?

Edited January 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not necessarily discipleship. 

I am not trying to convince you. I am trying to understand you.
 

Discipleship may not start at baptism either. I still don’t get why you draw the line there. 
 

Maybe the stand and steps comment isn’t as well known as I thought. Sorry I didn’t provide the quote.  
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2009/04/the-way-of-the-disciple?lang=eng

Quote

The first step on the path of discipleship begins in the exact place where we stand! We do not have to prequalify to take that first step. It doesn’t matter if we are rich or poor. There is no requirement to be educated, eloquent, or intellectual. We do not have to be perfect or well-spoken or even well-mannered. You and I can walk in the path of discipleship today….

I invite you to start where you are and come to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Walk again in the way of the Lord. I testify that the Lord will bless your life, endow you with knowledge and joy beyond comprehension, and distill upon you the supernal gifts of the Spirit. It is always the right time to walk in His way. It is never too late.

 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Do you believe you will be examined by Him prior to a decision, or will He simply know you were LDS on earth so he will wave you through without a glance?

LDS?  What does that matter? Anybody can be LDS and fake it. Look at this board!

I think it is a continuous conversation with Him

I simply cannot see it your way. And of course we only come through to God through Christ BECAUSE that is who we are talking with during that life long continuous conversation.

Christ is not your EXAMINER. He knows your heart at every second of every day. We examine ourselves

If anything it will be "Well, Mark, where do you think you belong?"

THAT may be the one tough question on the test.

The last question on the Recommend interview is " Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the temple?  It's never easy

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not in the least.  I don’t play those kinds of games. 

… If “judge” has a nuance you don’t like, what about identify or evaluate?

Too late for that. The well is already poisoned, right?

There are a number of words you could have used with approximately the same meaning — consider, regard, deem, apply — but you went with the one that, in a Christian context, is loaded with baggage. Again, cleverly played from an argumentation standpoint. Take the compliment. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Discipleship may not start at baptism either. I still don’t get why you draw the line there. 
 

Maybe the stand and steps comment isn’t as well known as I thought. Sorry I didn’t provide the quote.  
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2009/04/the-way-of-the-disciple?lang=eng

 

The not-yet-attributed Uchtdorf quote was your ace in the hole. Again, well played. I’m impressed. 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Discipleship may not start at baptism either. I still don’t get why you draw the line there. 

I agree it may not start there. But it does signify commitment. 
 

It’s like marriage in that respect. Many marriages fail, but marriage does signify commitment. 

[Calm]

On 1/30/2022 at 9:09 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

at. The well is already poisoned, right?

Can something be poisoned unintentionally?  My apologies if you think the conversation can’t be salvaged. 
 

It is an insult to me, no compliment.  Playing mind games is something I have chosen not to do because I have seen the harm it causes. 
 

Since I said I hadn’t meant to and yet you continue to push my choice as consciously chosen to poison the well, you are now implying I am lying. Perhaps that is unintentional on your part. I will try snd take it that way and not be further insulted that you see me as manipulative, etc. for some reason. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The not-yet-attributed Uchtdorf quote was your ace in the hole. Again, well played. I’m impressed. 

Scott, I was lazy and distracted last night. Assuming the worse…what does that get you?  Certainly not the truth. 

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

There’s much to be said for having faith and for earnestly seeking truth. But it’s not quite the same thing as discipleship, which connotes a level of commitment and dedication such that one will readily receive the ordinance of baptism without equivocation, reservation or hesitation, and will “hunger and thirst” to obey all of the commandments of God. 
 

I’m well acquainted with the story of Vincenzo Di Francesca and have been for a long time. For many years, he knew the Book of Mormon only as “the book without a cover” because the copy he found was missing its cover and he could not find out more about it. I’m confident from what I understand that during those many years he would have jumped at the chance to be baptized by one having authority had he only been given the opportunity. 

Yes, he was a disciple of Christ before baptism because Christ had his heart.  Baptism is not required for one to be a disciple.  Many baptized people are not disciples and many unbaptized are.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Too late for that. The well is already poisoned, right?

There are a number of words you could have used with approximately the same meaning — consider, regard, deem, apply — but you went with the one that, in a Christian context, is loaded with baggage. Again, cleverly played from an argumentation standpoint. Take the compliment. 

What the heck?  You really think she's trying to score points?  It takes real talent to interact with someone over so many years and yet not know them at all.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What the heck?  You really think she's trying to score points?  It takes real talent to interact with someone over so many years and yet not know them at all.

I am clueless why he went that route, so I got major talent, lol.