The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[Calm]

PS:  we do tend to ignore predestination, not going to argue that one.  

I can’t think of how we actually use those verses, for example. Perhaps someone else can though. 
 

added:  we do deal with it by using a word we see as more accurate for the teachings, Foreordination.  So it is not so much that we ignore it, but that we reject the interpretation of predestination and substitute our own interpretation Imo. Now who is right can be debated. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/predestination?lang=eng

How the difference in interpretation is taught to seminary students:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/new-testament-teacher-manual/the-epistle-of-paul-the-apostle-to-the-ephesians/lesson-44-ephesians?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1990/12/i-have-a-question/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

“To Latter-day Saints, the idea of predestination is unscriptural. Not only does it deny what Paul and other prophets taught about agency, but it also limits God’s love to only a select few. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith stated emphatically that “no person is ever predestined to salvation or damnation. Every person has free agency.”³ Similarly, the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob taught that “one being is as precious in [God’s] sight as the other.” (Jacob 2:21.)

The problem with the idea of predestination, as C. H. Dodd put it, is that it “sets the ground of a man’s hope of salvation entirely outside himself.”⁴ Elder James E. Talmage also denounced the concept of predestination, saying that it makes us merely “automatons,”⁵ acting out a predetermined destiny decreed by God.

The problem is one of definition and interpretation. Many Christian churches regard the words predestine and foreordain as synonymous.⁶ However, our modern-day Church leaders have distinguished between them. Predestination is not a part of Latter-day Saint doctrine; foreordination is.

The Prophet Joseph Smith clearly taught that individuals were foreordained in premortality to certain missions in mortality. “Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council in Heaven before this world was,”⁷ he wrote.

Several scriptures refer to foreordination; they tell us that Abraham was “chosen” before he was born (Abr. 3:23) and that Jeremiah was “ordained … a prophet unto the nations” before his birth. (Jer. 1:5.) The Book of Mormon says that others were also “called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works.” (Alma 13:3.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote that “the Lord foreordained chosen spirit children in pre-existence and assigned them to come to earth at particular times and places so that they might aid in furthering his divine will. These pre-existence appointments, made ‘according to the foreknowledge of God the Father’ (1 Pet. 1:2), simply designated certain individuals to perform missions which the Lord in his wisdom knew they had the talent and capacities to do.”⁸

Foreordination is thus different from predestination. There is no divine compulsion to ensure that a person who is foreordained to a particular calling will fulfill his or her tasks….”

”Paul’s letters also make it clear that “the elect” can fall from grace and thus lose their reward. (See Rom. 11:17–21.) In fact, Paul claimed no guarantee of his own salvation; one of his favorite themes was the necessity of holding “stedfast unto the end.” (Heb. 3:14; see also 1 Cor. 9:27.) Such constant exhortations to righteousness would hardly seem necessary if he had believed that human beings did not help determine their own eternal destinies by their conduct during mortality.

From these scriptures, it seems clear that Paul did not believe in predestination—at least as a Calvinist defines the term. But then, we might ask, did Paul believe in and teach the doctrine of foreordination—as we define the term?

Again, to find out, we need to study Paul’s writings. He himself said that he had been set apart “before [he] was born.” (Gal. 1:15, Revised Standard Version.)¹² He wrote to Timothy of their “holy calling” given “before the world began.” (2 Tim. 1:9.) To the Ephesians, he said that the Lord “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” to receive the gospel and its blessings. (Eph. 1:3–5.)¹³He told the Thessalonian members that “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” (2 Thes. 2:13.) Indeed, all people are foreordained to salvation and exaltation, but to fulfill that foreordination they must accept the ordinances of the gospel, keep the commandments, and endure to the end.

But if Paul did not believe in predestination, why does the passage in Hebrews refer to it? Could those who translated the King James Version have erred in using the English word predestinate to convey the meaning of foreordain?

Possibly. The problem arises because the Greek word proorizo, which is made up of the prefix pro (meaning “before or in front of; beforehand, or earlier”)¹⁴ and the verb orizo (meaning “to determine, mark out, designate, destine, ordain, or appoint,” or “to divide or separate from … to pre-appoint or pre-ordain)”¹⁵ can be translated a number of different ways. In fact, various combinations of words have been used to translate the term over a period covering hundreds of years.¹⁶ The examples on page 31 come from various translations of Romans 8:29–30. Note how the same idea is translated in a number of different ways.”

Edited July 28, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes you have to accept the LDS gospel and receive all the LDS ordinances.  Baptism, confirmation, priesthood if you are male and temple endowment and sealing of your marriage. If you do not have the opportunity to hear the message and accept it in this life you can be preached to in the spirit world and accept is then the ordinances can be performed to you in an LDS temple by proxy.  Without that no highest heaven for you.  And what is not clear is what does an opportunity to hear and accept in this life mean. If one knows about the LDS gospel and rejects it in this life will they have another chance in the spirit world before the resurrection and judgement?  Not sure. Lots f different opinions about that.

And you will have to accept everything else the Lord presents you with as part of the comprehension process of exaltation.  The Restored Gospel is not a special case where you can accept it and reject the rest of God’s instruction. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Love and worship in spirit 

To love is the greatest commandment.  If obeying commandments are considered a work, then love is a work.  And love/work is requirement, as you suggest.  

How do we fulfill this commandment to love?  Are we only supposed to love "in spirit"? 

Quote

Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

"Strength" suggests physical work.  Are we only supposed to confess our love and acceptance of Him?

Quote

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth

How can we know if we truly are fulfilling the commandment and "requirement" to love?

Quote

John 14:21, 23-24

He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me... Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."

Quote

2 John 1:6
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

Quote

John 14:15
"If you love Me, keep My commandments.

How do we enter into eternal life?

Quote

Matthew 19:17
... But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 17:3 teaches that eternal life is to "know" Him.  Can we know Him by not following His commandments in good works- thus removing Him as our Lord? 

Quote

1 John 2:3-6

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.  6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." 

Quote

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

What happens when we disobey the commandments, aka sin?

Quote

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

How do we recover?

Quote

Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.

To love God and to know God is to obey God.  Period.  And to know God is eternal life. 
 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Question so is the BOM part of the restoration??

It was restored to the knowledge of man during the restoration, so I would say yeah. 

[InCognitus]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

To love is the greatest commandment.  If obeying commandments are considered a work, then love is a work.  And love/work is requirement, as you suggest.  

How do we fulfill this commandment to love?  Are we only supposed to love "in spirit"? 

"Strength" suggests physical work.  Are we only supposed to confess our love and acceptance of Him?

How can we know if we truly are fulfilling the commandment and "requirement" to love?

How do we enter into eternal life?

John 17:3 teaches that eternal life is to "know Him".  Can we know Him by not following His commandments in good works- thus removing Him as our Lord? 

What happens when we disobey?

How do we recover?

To love God and to know God is to obey God.  Period.  And to know God is eternal life. 
 

Now we wait to see if you get actual answers to your questions.  

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

John 17:3 teaches that eternal life is to "know Him".  Can we know Him by not following His commandments in good works- thus removing Him as our Lord? 

1 John 2:3-6:  "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.  6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."  

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Now we wait to see if you get actual answers to your questions.  

1 John 2:3-6:  "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.  4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.  6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."  

That there is a good one!  I am going to steal that and put it in my post.  Thanks

[Ranch2727]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

That is the beauty of the restored gospel which teaches us of "other sheep" in other folds.  It speaks of God's involvement with all people in all lands and isles of the sea who have heard his word and write it.  We have one of these records - the Book of Mormon.  We are told there are other sacred writings from other folds that will be brought to light too.   Now that really does seem legit. 

The reason I asked if the BOM is part of the restoration is this… LDS teaches if you mess up with your time on earth and don’t except Jesus and or the LDS stuff and have been told about it that you get another chance.  I posted a scripture that says work can’t be done and it’s too late.    

And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not ^bprocrastinate the day of your ^crepentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the ^dnight of ^edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

[Ranch2727]

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

That there is a good one!  I am going to steal that and put it in my post.  Thanks

For me love takes no effort at all, love is easy (for me) maybe not for everyone.  If you have to work for love that’s sad, it’s not work to love God. God is spirit and we are told to worship God in spirit, I know you think he has a body.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. You might be able to keep the commandments, I can’t.    
I will have eternal life with God, Romans 10:9 

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.  
   Hopefully when one disobeys, which is most days we recover by repenting.
 

 

 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

The reason I asked if the BOM is part of the restoration is this… LDS teaches if you mess up with your time on earth and don’t except Jesus and or the LDS stuff and have been told about it that you get another chance.

This seems like a tangent from the thread, but ok. 

This isn't entirely true.  As you note in the passage you quote, some won't be able to repent in the next life.  Not because they can't per se, but because they won't - If they won't, then I guess it is actually true to say that they can't.  Our scriptures teach us to "judge not".  So, we don't.  God is the only capable judge of these things.  We are simply expected to "improve our time while in this life".  If we do so, there are no reasons why we won't or can't repent in the next life too.  

Quote

if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the ^dnight of ^edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Note this is a conditional statement.  Work wont be performed in the next life only "if we do not improve..."  Improvement does not imply perfection.  In fact, it implies the opposite. We are not expected to be perfect before we die.  We are just expected to seek to improve ourselves while alive.  If we do so, then we will not meet the condition which will keep us from laboring towards repentance/improvement/change in the next life. 

The next verse is enlightening as to they why work can't, or perhaps better won't be performed.  

Quote

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

I think it can safely be deduced from this passage that the spirits who are not resistant to change and improvement in this will have that same spirit possess them in the next life, making further improvement and repentance possible.

I think this passage is speaking more about over-all attitudes of resistance or openness to repentance/change/improvement in this life.  That same attitude will possess us in the next life, either leading us to repentance, or keeping us from it. 

This is not saying anything about church membership (that one must be a member or baptized in mortality), nor is it requiring perfection of obedience/repentance in mortality, rather it is speaking of an over-all spirit and attitude towards spiritual improvement.  

In fact, we teach that one cannot be baptized without first exercising faith in repentance.  So, the very fact that we perform baptisms for the dead proves that we believe and teach that repentance is possible after death.  How else could the dead accept baptism without first repenting?

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

For me love takes no effort at all, love is easy (for me) maybe not for everyone.

So love requires no "strength" eh?  See Mark 12:20

Feelings of love towards God are easy indeed when we understand his nature, but I think you are watering down love if you think it is just a feeling.   That is not the kind of love that God demands/commands from us.  See my previous post for proof. 

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

If you have to work for love that’s sad

No, it is required for true love.  Are you married, or have kids?  I'm guessing not by that comment.  If I don't work for my wife or kids and put in effort for them, then I don't truly love them do I?  They certainly won't be convinced anyway.  Same with God. 

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

God is spirit and we are told to worship God in spirit

What do the scriptures say about love though?  All of your heart, might, mind, and strength - not just spirit. 

A "spirited person" is said to be active.. Curious indeed.  Someone who works hard for a cause/purpose is said to "have spirit".  Also curious. To do something "in spirit" is to be inspired to action by the spirit.  

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

You might be able to keep the commandments, I can’t.    

I bet you can keep many of them perfectly.  You can try your hardest on the rest.  That is all that is expected. 

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

Hopefully when one disobeys, which is most days we recover by repenting.

Agreed!  Now you are getting it!

Edited July 28, 2022 by pogi

[Ranch2727]

46 minutes ago, pogi said:

So love requires no "strength" eh?  See Mark 12:20

Feelings of love towards God are easy indeed when we understand his nature, but I think you are watering down love if you think it is just a feeling.   That is not the kind of love that God demands/commands from us.  See my previous post for proof. 

No, it is required for true love.  Are you married, or have kids?  I'm guessing not by that comment.  If I don't work for my wife or kids and put in effort for them, then I don't truly love them do I?  They certainly won't be convinced anyway.  Same with God. 

What do the scriptures say about love though?  All of your heart, might, mind, and strength - not just spirit. 

A "spirited person" is said to be active.. Curious indeed.  Someone who works hard for a cause/purpose is said to "have spirit".  Also curious. To do something "in spirit" is to be inspired to action by the spirit.  

I bet you can keep many of them perfectly.  You can try your hardest on the rest.  That is all that is expected. 

Agreed!  Now you are getting it!

Working for my wife and kids doesn’t work for that example, I go to work to pay my bills. My love for my family is effortless, it’s in my heart and have been blessed by God to have the wife I do.  I can say I would really Love to not work 😁 I don’t do things by feelings, that’s all I hear from my LDS friends and family. “ I feel that the church is true,I had a burning feeling in my chest” I’m a fact guy. Nope guilty of all the laws, because if you break one law you are guilty of them all.   
King James Bible
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

im going to pull the old LDS favorite, I don’t think you have interpreted Alma correctly. It plainly says “no labor can be performed” now it did change in the P of G P. I find the BOM says one thing and then the other two books say something different. 
     On a lighter note and I have said this before on this forum, I’ve been challenged by good thoughts and great questions.  I would say some are sarcastic as hell but I love witty sarcasm.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If I don't work for my wife or kids and put in effort for them, then I don't truly love them do I?

My sister ended up divorced because he walked when it got hard with the reasoning “you shouldn’t have to work at love”.

[Chum]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

My sister ended up divorced because he walked when it got hard with the reasoning “you shouldn’t have to work at love”.

I think we don't work at love. We work at the relationship. Love is a potential byproduct of that.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Chum said:

I think we don't work at love. We work at the relationship. Love is a potential byproduct of that.

I agree. Much more accurate. 

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

If you have to work for love that’s sad, it’s not work to love God.

I think you are using the wrong definition of "work" in this context.  You seem to be thinking that "work" must be hard to be called "work".  "Work" in this context simply means DOING something other than sitting on your couch and thinking happy thoughts about your imagined standing with God.  That's not showing love for God.   Nor can anyone "know" God by doing nothing.  In fact, the Bible says that you can't "know" God unless you keep his commandments (quoted earlier).  And it says that if you say you know God but don't keep his commandments, you are a liar!  (I'm not saying you are this, but this is what the Bible says about those who say they know God but don't keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3-6).

I know you also believe that works are necessary, because in another post you acknowledged that a person can lose their salvation.  You said if a person stops worshiping God, then they would lose their salvation.  What does a person need to "do" to worship God?  You also said by "denying God" you could lose your salvation.  You remember how the Bible says a person denies God, right?  And what Jesus said would happen to such a person?

Jesus said:  Mat 10:33  "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Paul said:  2 Tim 2:12  "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us"

And Paul said how people deny Jesus:  Titus 1:16  "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."  (There's that "work" word again).

How do you respond to this, and how can these Bible teachings possibly be in harmony with what you have been teaching here?  (And please answer this time).

[pogi]

12 hours ago, Chum said:

I think we don't work at love. We work at the relationship. Love is a potential byproduct of that.

The feeling of love, maybe.  But the love the savior is talking about is more than a mere feeling or empty words, it is a verb, and that requires work.  If I am loving someone, I am working at the relationship.  Same thing.

Love as a byproduct of work is the same to me as saying that we need to work at love.  I don’t believe love can exist without effort/work.  I see it as a positive feedback cycle.  Love is a byproduct of work, and work is a byproduct of love, which is a byproduct of that work, which is a byproduct of love…
 

Work is a necessary manifestation of love for any relationship to work.  Your partner or kids simply won’t believe the words “I love you” when your actions/work says otherwise.

My kids require a LOT of work, which work is the byproduct of a LOT of love.  Without work and physical effort, no one can convincingly pretend that they love their kids.  They would be neglectful and unresponsive parents. 

Work is the only legitimate proof and source of love, hence Christs requirement to obey/work if we truly love him.  Such work will only increase our love for the savior…and the positive feedback cycle begins.

Edited July 29, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

“Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.”

James 1:27

I interpret “pure religion” as “pure worship”. And visiting the fatherless and widows and keeping oneself unspotted certainly sounds like works to me. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Working for my wife and kids doesn’t work for that example, I go to work to pay my bills.

I was not talking about work in the form of employment.  But that too is a manifestation of love.   Kids are expensive.  "The bills" represent your family.  That is really what you go to work for - not for the bills, but what the bills pay for - food, shelter, clothing, insurance, etc. for your families well-being and protection   You literally work for them because you love them.   Work is a necessary manifestation of love.  Where there is no work, there is no love.    If you didn't work for them, and neglect them, then clearly you don't really love them.   We make sacrifices for our children and spouses.  We do hard things for them.  Not all of it is hard though.  Much, if not most of the work is effortless and easy and enjoyable, as you say.  But anyone who has raised an infant knows that it is not easy.  It is hard work, and love REQUIRES it.  

Edited July 29, 2022 by pogi

[MiserereNobis]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:57 AM, teddyaware said:

I’ve always found it fascinating how non-LDS Christians, who really have no excuse for not knowing better,  seem to take it for granted that apostles and prophets are not essential to the true Church of Christ;

🙄

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

im going to pull the old LDS favorite, I don’t think you have interpreted Alma correctly. It plainly says “no labor can be performed” now it did change in the P of G P. I find the BOM says one thing and then the other two books say something different. 

I always love it when non-LDS try to interpret our own scripture (that they don't even believe in) for us.  

The fact that you think those two books say different things on this topic convinces me that you are the one misinterpreting things, with respect. 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by pogi

[Rain]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I was not talking about work in the form of employment.  But that too is a manifestation of love.   Kids are expensive.  "The bills" represent your family.  That is really what you go to work for - not for the bills, but what the bills pay for - food, shelter, clothing, insurance, etc. for your families well-being and protection   You literally work for them because you love them.   Work is a necessary manifestation of love.  Where there is no work, there is no love.    If you didn't work for them, and neglect them, then clearly you don't really love them.   We make sacrifices for our children and spouses.  We do hard things for them.  Not all of it is hard though.  Much, if not most of the work is effortless and easy and enjoyable, as you say.  But anyone who has raised an infant knows that it is not easy.  It is hard work, and love REQUIRES it.  

This is the kind of thing that I share with moms who tell me they have no choice, but to work. 

"Yes you do.  You love your children so you work so they can be clothed and fed.  You could certainly make the choice not to work which will make it so you are kicked out of your apartment and your children will be hungry, but you are choosing to work because that provides your children with the things they need. What a great choice. You have shown that love through taking care of them." 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Rain

[teddyaware]

13 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I think you are using the wrong definition of "work" in this context.  You seem to be thinking that "work" must be hard to be called "work".  "Work" in this context simply means DOING something other than sitting on your couch and thinking happy thoughts about your imagined standing with God.  That's not showing love for God.   Nor can anyone "know" God by doing nothing.  In fact, the Bible says that you can't "know" God unless you keep his commandments (quoted earlier).  And it says that if you say you know God but don't keep his commandments, you are a liar!  (I'm not saying you are this, but this is what the Bible says about those who say they know God but don't keep his commandments - 1 John 2:3-6).

I know you also believe that works are necessary, because in another post you acknowledged that a person can lose their salvation.  You said if a person stops worshiping God, then they would lose their salvation.  What does a person need to "do" to worship God?  You also said by "denying God" you could lose your salvation.  You remember how the Bible says a person denies God, right?  And what Jesus said would happen to such a person?

Jesus said:  Mat 10:33  "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Paul said:  2 Tim 2:12  "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us"

And Paul said how people deny Jesus:  Titus 1:16  "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."  (There's that "work" word again).

How do you respond to this, and how can these Bible teachings possibly be in harmony with what you have been teaching here?  (And please answer this time).

I believe the problem that’s preventing a meeting of the minds on these points of contention is that there is a lack of awareness on the part of non-LDS Christians that the writers of the New Testament often focused on the very real need for believers to go beyond the rudimentary “mother’s milk” stage of spiritual growth. Rather than wanting the members of the Church to remain at the starting point of Christian discipleship, the New Testament authors urged for progress toward a far deeper relationship with God wherein one goes far beyond a mere profession of faith in Christ as personal Lord and Saviour (justification) and into  the “strong meat” stage of spiritual progress, wherein one actually becomes more and more like the Saviour in word, thought and action through the process of sanctification through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly testifies that even the inheritors of the telestial mansions of heavenly glory will first have to bow their knees to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is Christ the before they can enter into that loss glorious realm of salvation. But those who inherit the celestial degree of heavenly glory are required to go beyond the easy to digest mothers milk stage of gospel progress and onto the harder to digest strong meat stage of gospel progress in which one fully submits to the will of God and overcomes the devil and this fallen world through unalloyed faith in Christ. After baptism one must not only continue to believe in Christ but must also  hunger and thirsts after righteousness until they are filled with his glory. The Apostle Paul expresses what I tried to say above more more clearly and succinctly…

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,                                                                                                                                14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3)

Edited July 29, 2022 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Working for my wife and kids doesn’t work for that example, I go to work to pay my bills. My love for my family is effortless, it’s in my heart and have been blessed by God to have the wife I do.  I can say I would really Love to not work 😁 I don’t do things by feelings, that’s all I hear from my LDS friends and family. “ I feel that the church is true,I had a burning feeling in my chest” I’m a fact guy. Nope guilty of all the laws, because if you break one law you are guilty of them all.   
King James Bible
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

im going to pull the old LDS favorite, I don’t think you have interpreted Alma correctly. It plainly says “no labor can be performed” now it did change in the P of G P. I find the BOM says one thing and then the other two books say something different. 
     On a lighter note and I have said this before on this forum, I’ve been challenged by good thoughts and great questions.  I would say some are sarcastic as hell but I love witty sarcasm.

Thanks for sticking around, we need good dialogue Ranch! For the most part the Book of Mormon passes the mustard for non LDS Christians and the other stuff or the meat not milk is in the D&C and PoGP. But there is the scripture on Grace in the BoM that says this: 15:32 (Mosiah 3:24). We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do, 2 Ne. 25:23. Teach them to never be weary of good works, Alma 37:34.

[pogi]

15 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I don’t do things by feelings, that’s all I hear from my LDS friends and family. “ I feel that the church is true,I had a burning feeling in my chest” I’m a fact guy. 

Love is a feeling.  It manifests as an action/verb.  To do things in love is to do things by feeling.  To worship God in love, is to worship by feeling.  The scriptures are clear that obeying the commandments is a manifestation of love - in other words actions done by feeling. 

God's love which is manifest in our heart is a feeling.

Quote

Rom 5:23

...the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

That is how we know that God lives.  That is the only way we can know that God lives - by feeling Him.   We can't prove that God lives through "facts", other than the "fact" that we feel him.  That feeling, that experience, that knowledge is what inspires us to work/worship/serve/love God back.     

When it comes to religion, we can't prove any facts.  We can't prove that Christ atoned for our sins.  We can't prove that God even exists by undeniable and falsifiable facts.  The only way we can know these things is via feelings as bestowed through the Holy Spirit.  When we do anything, including worship, prayer, etc. it is only a manifestation and action performed by feeling.   So, I hope and trust that you actually do do things "by feeling", including loving (the verb) your family. 

[Chum]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The feeling of love, maybe.  But the love the savior is talking about is more than a mere feeling or empty words, it is a verb, and that requires work.  If I am loving someone, I am working at the relationship.  Same thing.

Love as a byproduct of work is the same to me as saying that we need to work at love.  I don’t believe love can exist without effort/work.  I see it as a positive feedback cycle.  Love is a byproduct of work, and work is a byproduct of love, which is a byproduct of that work, which is a byproduct of love…

You're not wrong but I prefer a relationship-centric focus; because when love is the goal, it's is also the barometer.

Our challenge is that love wanes in the best relationships, perhaps to where it isn't felt. If love is our goal and that falls to zero, we can perceive that as a failed relationship. When we're in that place, it's seamless to just continue to work on the relationship - rather than try to will love into existence.