The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[Saint Bonaventure]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Why is any canonized scripture written about events after Christ died and was resurrected accepted then?

Those books of Scripture--or really, written works that would eventually be considered Scripture--were determined by the teaching authority of the Church to be Scripture. They were determined to reveal God and were circulated and read during Mass. They were taught alongside Sacred Tradition (the teachings that the Apostles passed on through their preaching and that is referenced many places in the New Testament).

There are volumes and volumes that address various aspects of your question, and at different levels of understanding. Outside of the Bible, works such as The Didache and the writings of St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr, and St. Iraneus of Lyons address aspects of Scripture and early Christianity, and then others have written specifically about canonization, the General Councils that addressed what counts as Scripture and why--there's plenty of material. 

The notion of canon certainly seems like a place for discussion between Latter-day Saints and Catholics. I have thoughts about how the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith impact LDS notions of canon.

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Saint Bonaventure

[Ranch2727]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You're late to the party, Jesus is God now. Or that's what they're saying. So cross that off the list.

And one problem I have is this. How would your family feel if you really were a couch potato and didn't want to support your family. Don't you think that would disappoint God? So I don't think the analogy works so great. But of course like you said you wouldn't do that. But what of the others that don't have much of a moral compass but do accept Jesus as their personal Savior how would that sit with God. So there are rapists, murderers etc. but if someone tells a simple white lie, hey it's a lie, then they are put in the same category? I have to disagree. And maybe I misunderstand. 

There's a heck of a lot of people that need a God judging them to be able to do what is right, they don't always listen to their moral compasses, I tend to think that's why the Bible exists or was created because humans knew the damage that occur without the all seeing eye. 

Also, I believe JS was wrong to boast, that was dumb. But how about your clergy at the EV church you go to or maybe you don't go to any brick or mortar building, that's fine. I only go to Zoom so that's not the best. JS was a human, and IMO probably did what he wasn't suppose to do by using God sometimes to create a new church. I feel like sometimes he was in the right place with his wish for people in the world but went too far with polygamy. I think he didn't like the current churches telling people they're going to hell and would suffer fire and brimstone. Is that your God, no thanks! 

I know for a fact that the authors for the Bible wrote later on about Matthew, Luke and John and ? Kind of like playing telephone as a kid. And through the years the truth sort of fades and we're not always getting the truth, just man made stuff, to keep people from killing each other or keep people somewhat civilized. But the rest of the Bible stinks to high heaven when it puts women at a disadvantage...like women have to have long hair or aren't allowed to pray in church and women are made to marry someone they don't want to, or...you get the picture. You can keep that part of the Bible or the part of the Bible that makes it out that the blacks are the curse of Cain, keep that one or definitely burn that to a crisp. Do you believe the whole Bible? Does your God expect you to? 

That's not my God for sure. 

 

 

John 1:1 in the beginning was the word (Jesus) and the word was with God and the word was God.    
 So with that I know that Jesus didn’t become a God later. 
 

As you can tell I’m not a word smith so I might be confusing you.  I’m saying I can worship God while sitting on my couch or on the mountain hunting.  Anytime you converse with God I would think he is pleased.  Now a man that has a family should go to work and support them, yes I believe that would please God, I agree.

James 2:10 if you break one law you are guilty of them all.     
so if a man lies and doesn’t ask forgiveness he is in jeopardy, if a man kills and ask forgiveness the Bible says he is forgiven.    
 

Agreed some,  all people do need to know Gods judgement, but that doesn’t mean he has to do that in a church of some sort. 
 

You said that people didn’t need others telling them they were going to hell, but before that you said people need Gods judgment. If I’m told by others that I’m going to hell I need to look within myself and talk to God why they would say that, I might need that at that moment.  That’s the God I want, maybe he put that person in my path.

As for how women were treated in the Bible I have no idea, I hope he will explain that. However, I see injustice within the LDS today.  They are told how to dress, how many earrings they can wear.  I know my wife would never wear jeans to church, why is she afraid of what she wears.  God doesn’t care what you have on, he is glad you showed up. Women can’t pray over someone getting baptized, over a grave with the men.  So maybe they can cut their hair but not much has changed for women in the LDS church. Hell the man has to pull his wife through the veil. My sisters that are born again don’t have to worry about any of that stuff, hair, makeup, earrings, it’s called freedom in Christ.  The Black thing was so cruel and an abomination of God that the LDS church will always be labeled.  So I might not understand all that God was trying to say but I’m not going to change it to my liking, we will know one day.  God Bless

[Ranch2727]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Sure. I think most of Christianity holds that view or similar.

Okay. Not what I said but okay. Here you are presenting a generalized measure of success as a qualifier. Your equation runs something like 'Present success, Get considered for bishop'. Yet again, this is a notion that originates with you.

A longer form of what I said (not needed by most people) is that God qualifies men and the way those qualifications manifest themselves is thru ability. After a generation or so of being prepared by God, the way these men are likely to exhibit their qualification is thru concerns they are involved in. In our society, those concerns are most likely to be employment, business or similar endeavors.

So me: God prepares men for religious office and men who've been prepared tend to be good at things that require similar skill sets.

You (prior to now): Men need success to be considered.

Do you see where your reinterpretation isn't in harmony with my explanation?

Again we are looking through a different set of eyes, your Jesus is not the one I follow. So yes I’m not in harmony with your Christ

I probably asked my question wrong, are the prophets, apostles and bishops  called by God? That’s all I really wanted to know.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

The notion of canon certainly seems like a place for discussion between Latter-day Saints and Catholics. I have thoughts about how the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith impact LDS notions of canon.

 

Is there an easy answer to why modern scripture might not be able to have the same rules applied to it?  If the Teaching Authority of the Church were to change their minds about the canon being closed (as opposed to revelation still being open), would that be enough to open the canon back up?

What if a text that had been referenced in the New Testament, but lost was found and proven authentic?***

(Assuming here it is more than just an issue of time or respect for early church fathers who wrote about scripture or tradition.)

***wiki lists the below as referenced in the NT, but missing. Would any of these be considered?  Perhaps the epistle of Paul to the Laodiceans since Paul instructs “read the epistle”?
 

“Non-canonical books quoted or alluded to:^[20]

• Book of Enoch (Jude 1:4, 1:6, 1:13, 1:14–15, 2 Peter 2:4; 3:13,^[22][23] and John 7:38 ^[24]).
• The Book of Jannes and Jambres, according to Origen (2 Timothy 3:8 "... as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses")
• Epistle to the Laodiceans (Colossians 4:16 "read the epistle from Laodicea")
• Life of Adam and Eve (2 Corinthians 11:14 "Satan as an angel of light", 12:2 "Third Heaven")^[25]
• A lost section of the Assumption of Moses (2 Timothy 3:8, Jude 9 "Michael.. body of Moses")
• Martyrdom of Isaiah (Hebrews 11:37 "they were sawn in two")
• Paul's letter to the Corinthians before 1 Corinthians (1 Corinthians 5:9 "I wrote to you in my letter...")
• Paul’s letter to the Ephesians before Ephesians (Ephesians 3:3 “As I wrote afore in few words...”)
• An unknown messianic prophecy possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Matthew 2:23 that states "...he will be called a Nazorian." ("ὅτι Ναζωραῖος κληθήσεται"). "Nazorian" is typically rendered as "Nazarene" ("from Nazareth"), as in Acts 24:5, where Christians are referred to as "the sect of the Nazorians/Nazarenes" ("τῶν Ναζωραίων αἱρέσεως"). This is speculated to be a vague allusion to a quote about Samson in Judges 13:5 that uses a similar-sounding word: "the child shall be a Nazirite" (ναζιρ)
• An unknown version of Genesis (possibly a targum, midrash or other commentary), quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:45, as a reference to Christ's being "the Last Adam who became a life-giving spirit" (οὕτως καὶ γέγραπται· Ἐγένετο ὁ πρῶτος ἄνθρωπος Ἀδὰμ εἰς ψυχὴν ζῶσαν· ὁ ἔσχατος Ἀδὰμ εἰς πνεῦμα ζῳοποιοῦν.). It has been speculated that Paul is simply paraphrasing Genesis 2:7, but there is no clear indication that this is not a complete quote.
• An unknown text quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:9, suggested by Origen to be a lost apocryphal book:^[26]"But as it is written, 'No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him." This may also be an allusion to the similar Isaiah 64:4, "For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.'".^[27]
• An unknown messianic prophecy, possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Luke 24:46, speculated to be a vague allusion to Hosea 6:2:^[28] "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day."
• An unknown messianic prophecy, possibly from a non-canonical source, quoted in Mark 9:12, speculated to be a vague allusion to Isaiah 53: "and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought." “

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I’m saying I can worship God while sitting on my couch or on the mountain hunting.  

And so can Saints. Not sure what your point is unless you believe that is all you would need to do, that you could basically ignore the second great commandment and still become one with Christ. 

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

I also recall New Testament indications of the completeness of the teachings of Christ, such as in Jude 3, which teaches to contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints, and Galatians 1:8, which instructs the Galatians not to accept any gospel other than what has already been preached. The gospel is complete because God himself was revealed veiled only in the flesh of the person of the Son, and the truth of that revelation is what Catholics are referring to when we speak of the Apostolic Deposit of Faith. If the deposit of faith is not complete, then the implications would be dire: what was revealed in the Son of God was somehow inadequate.

I, personally, would say that LDS also believe that Christ taught completely everything that was needed.  In 3 Nephi 27:13-21, Christ outlines the gospel.  The 4th Article of Faith is really just a shortened version of what Christ taught:

Quote

4 We believe that the first principles and ^aordinances of the Gospel are: first, ^bFaith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, ^cRepentance; third, ^dBaptism by ^eimmersion for the ^fremission of sins; fourth, Laying on of ^ghands for the ^hgift of the Holy Ghost.

 

So, why the need for modern prophets?  The same reason for ancient prophets.  Not to teach new doctrine, but to point us back to Christ.  Ancient prophets were looking forward to the day of Christ and pointing their people to Him.  Modern prophets are looking back to His atonement and pointing their people to Him.  That's their main focus, testify of Christ.

4 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Consequently, a closed canon is theologically consistent with an all-true, unchanging God who revealed himself in the person of the Son. 

I believe Catholics actually have an open canon.  Don't you have "Tradition" which is basically extra-biblical teachings?  Isn't it possible to modify/change/reinterpret/increase the Tradition?  Or are you using canon just in the sense of the gospel?  Because if that is how you are defining it, then I would completely agree.  But if we are talking about the teachings that are given to us through prophets, we absolutely need an open canon because we don't interpret things the same way.  I don't want to have to figure out what Paul really meant when I could just read a modern "Paul".  It feels similar to why there is a pope.  He (and maybe the cardinals though I'm no expert) can make corrections to wrong interpretations that have crept into the fold.

[webbles]

13 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I probably asked my question wrong, are the prophets, apostles and bishops  called by God? That’s all I really wanted to know.

Yes

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I probably asked my question wrong, are the prophets, apostles and bishops  called by God? That’s all I really wanted to know.

We believe they are. 
 

How could you not know this, growing up in the Church and having a father as a bishop?  Sincere question
 

Basic doctrine expressed in Article of Faith 5.

Would you like a link?  I am assuming you are familiar with the Church’s website, but perhaps you aren’t. 

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You're late to the party, Jesus is God now. Or that's what they're saying. So cross that off the list.

Sometimes I wonder where you learn this.   Jesus has always been a God in the church.  We've had apostles excommunicated because of false beliefs around it (see Amasa Lyman).  He is the God of the Old Testament.  We don't accept the Trinity, but Jesus is definitely a God in the church.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I thought I did answer your question, maybe it didn’t post. So I will try again.

Your response this time is similar to what you posted to Pogi here, but since that post was in response to Pogi I didn't recognize that you were responding to my questions (especially since you didn't really answer my questions).  Sorry for missing that.

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

My relationship allows me to sit on the couch and do nothing, but if I’m on my couch, fishing or drinking coffee in the morning and thinking happy thoughts about God he will be pleased.  I’m not sure how that’s not showing love for God

I think we can have love in our hearts for God when we're doing any daily activity or recreation.  But if that's all we ever do, then it's not really showing any love for Jesus.  Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15), and: "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." (John 14:21)

I take it that you disagree with Jesus on those statements?

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

As I have said before so listen and wait for it, I can’t keep the commandments. Not sure how you do but I’m guilty of them all.  Remember if you break one you are guilty of them all.

Nobody can keep all the commandments perfectly.  All have sinned.  But that's what repentance is for.  And just because we all sin doesn't mean we need to ignore the parts of the Bible that say keeping the commandments is necessary, or that we should stop teaching what Jesus said about keeping his commandments.  It is by grace through faith that we are able to keep the commandments.   It is his grace that saves us, and faith is our acting upon our trust in him.  

Let me give a hypothetical situation as an example.  Let's say a sinful man learns of Jesus when he is 40 years old.  And after learning of Jesus he repents of all his sins, is born again, has the love of God in his heart, and puts all his sins behind him.  And consequently, he keeps the commandments of Jesus perfectly without fail the rest of his entire life (remember, this is hypothetical, real life is different).  When the man dies, he is saved in the kingdom of God.  But what is it that saved him?  His works?  No, of course not, because the man lived a sinful life for 40 years.  He not only broke one commandment, but he broke many, he is guilty of them all.  But the man repented, and Jesus paid for his sins through his atonement.  The man is perfected forever by the one offering of Christ.  Thus, this man's salvation comes by grace through faith, and not by his works, lest he should boast of them, even though he kept the commandments perfectly after learning of Jesus.  Jesus saved him, plain and simple.  Striving to keep the commandments doesn't disqualify a person from the grace of God.  But striving to keep the commandments makes us useful to God and lets God live in our lives.  We bear fruit, the fruit of the Spirit  People will see God in us when we strive to do what God asks of us. 

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Because of his gift I can do whatever I want, the difference is because I’m born again I choose not to. I would say to someone that tells me they keep the commandments that they are a liar.

Does this mean you disagree with 1 John 2:4 as well?  "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

As far as losing your salvation, sure one can by knowing God then denying him.   Works has nothing to do with that for me.

So this sounds like you disagree with Titus 1:16, right?  "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."   Please correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm just trying to understand how you think you fit in as a Bible believer.

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Just because you do all this work for your church doesn’t mean God is pleased with you.

I agree.  If we do things for the wrong reasons (like to be seen of men), God won't be pleased with us.  We should be doing the right works for the right reasons: doing the will of the Father.   And this is for God, and not for men:

1 Th 2:4  "But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts."

Colossians 1:9-10:
"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;"

1 John 3:22  "And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight."

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

By working or not working has  nothing to do with denying Him.  Yes in your works you can deny him, like doing things that go against him.

You say working or not working has nothing to do with denying him, then you say in your works you can deny him.  Please explain what you mean here, because it seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.  You say that doing things that go against him would be denying him.  Wouldn't that be disobedience to his commandments, and unto every good work reprobate?  Isn't that what it says in Titus 1:16 (already quoted above)?

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Our salvation was a gift (gift word again) that I know you have heard of but not after we do all we can, it’s a gift. When you give someone a gift do you then tell them… well you need to work the rest of your life for it. Not much of a gift.

Depends on the gift, doesn't it?  The gift of salvation isn't like a trophy we can put on our shelf and admire, or otherwise there wouldn't be some risk in losing it, as you seem to agree.  If we can lose our salvation then there must be something we need to do to maintain it.

Lets say your parents gave you a gift of paying for your college tuition.  It's a free gift.  But you would need to do some work to earn the college degree.  Why couldn't they have just given you a diploma instead?  Well, if they just gave you the diploma, that's not much of a gift, is it?  Because if you get the piece of paper that represents a college degree without learning anything, it doesn't help you at all.  And you would be worthless to your future employer.  But having your college tuition paid gives you an opportunity to progress and do something better than you might have done otherwise.  It provides you a way to become something better.

With the gift of salvation, God isn't just paying for our tuition in his school of life, but he also took care of all of our past debts as well.  This sets us free!  We are free from the bondage of our sins that would keep us from progressing in God's kingdom.  We have a clean slate that puts us on a path to an entrance into God's kingdom.  And when we stumble and sin along the way, we can repent and press forward.  But by using God's free gift he is making us into something more.  We become branches on the vine that bring forth much fruit to further the kingdom of God.  We become productive in God's kingdom.  And there is much more of that in the world to come.

And salvation is indeed a gift of God, because nobody can merit salvation by their works alone, because all have sinned.  Nobody deserves salvation.  Even the hypothetical man that kept all the commandments of Jesus the entire rest of his life after coming to Christ, he didn't merit salvation because of his later obedience, he was given salvation as a gift in spite of his past sins.  The gift is what empowers us to keep the commandments.  The gift perfects us.  

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

sometimes I have to remind myself that we believe in a different Jesus. “We don’t believe in the traditional Jesus of the Bible” Good old Gorden B My Jesus is God, my Jesus is not my spirit brother and brother to satan. My Jesus said believe in me and you are saved, my Jesus said you have to go through him to see God.  Your prophet said you must have a passport if JS to see God. Your prophet said he has done more than Jesus ever did because my people haven’t run from me yet.

This is an example of what I meant earlier when I said you tend to try to jump around.  I'm not going after the red herrings. 

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

 I have freedom in Christ and that’s where I will rest.

The "liberty" we have in Christ frees us from the bondage of the law, a bondage caused by our past sins.  

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

That’s the best answers that I can offer you.

Thank you, sincerely.  I appreciate your response. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by InCognitus

[webbles]

4 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Because of his gift I can do whatever I want, the difference is because I’m born again I choose not to.

Why do you choose not to?  What is the point since the gift is free?  And if it is free, then everyone has it so everyone is saved.  What's the point of living on this life if everyone is saved automatically?

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

A bishop must be blameless?

So all the bishops are innocent of all wrongdoing and without guilt? Wow they are some really good men. I’ve known bishops that were not very nice men. My dad was a bishop and although he was a very nice guy he had his human faults, not sure he was without guilt. Anyone know bishops kids that drank and did drugs or had sex? I knew plenty growing up in Happy Valley, I guess they didn’t rule over their kids.  A bishop in an old ward was a very successful business man but went to prison for embezzlement, I guess he was a little greedy.  Not sure these men were called of God to take good care of there church.  I’m not sure those scriptures posted helped your point, or maybe I just don’t understand.

There was a long list of qualifications listed for a bishop in 1 Tim 3:2-7, and you stopped on "a bishop must be blameless"?  You are questioning the Bible here.  What do you think Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy that "a bishop must be blameless"?

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

A bishop must be blameless?

So all the bishops are innocent of all wrongdoing and without guilt? Wow they are some really good men. I’ve known bishops that were not very nice men. My dad was a bishop and although he was a very nice guy he had his human faults, not sure he was without guilt. Anyone know bishops kids that drank and did drugs or had sex? I knew plenty growing up in Happy Valley, I guess they didn’t rule over their kids.  A bishop in an old ward was a very successful business man but went to prison for embezzlement, I guess he was a little greedy.  Not sure these men were called of God to take good care of there church.  I’m not sure those scriptures posted helped your point, or maybe I just don’t understand.

You do realize he is quoting from the New Testament?  Those are requirements for a Bishop as stated in the New Testament.

[Ranch2727]

5 minutes ago, webbles said:

Why do you choose not to?  What is the point since the gift is free?  And if it is free, then everyone has it so everyone is saved.  What's the point of living on this life if everyone is saved automatically?

When I say I choose not to I’m saying I can break the law of the land but because I love God I choose not to.  Everyone that believes in Jesus and confesses it they ARE SAVED. What’s the point on earth be LDS when I can just die and do the work then? Why would Jesus need to die if we can just do it later. I know you don’t except the trinity, I do.  I learn this by studying, if Jesus was in the God in the Old Testament and God was also that becomes two Gods.  

[Ranch2727]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

We believe they are. 
 

How could you not know this, growing up in the Church and having a father as a bishop?  Sincere question
 

Basic doctrine expressed in Article of Faith 5.

Would you like a link?  I am assuming you are familiar with the Church’s website, but perhaps you aren’t. 

Very familiar with the website, Cognitis said bishops need to be blameless. I’m asking because although my dad was a very loving man he was not blameless. Also the other examples about bishops in my life had major problems. So I was just asking if the church was calling them or was God or did they work together on it.  I also wonder why your new prophets really only give advice but really don’t make new prophecies?

[webbles]

6 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

When I say I choose not to I’m saying I can break the law of the land but because I love God I choose not to.  Everyone that believes in Jesus and confesses it they ARE SAVED. What’s the point on earth be LDS when I can just die and do the work then? Why would Jesus need to die if we can just do it later. I know you don’t except the trinity, I do.  I learn this by studying, if Jesus was in the God in the Old Testament and God was also that becomes two Gods.  

So there is something we are supposed to do?  You said grace was a free gift but now you are requiring work for that gift.  Also, can you hate God and be saved?  Or do you also have to love Him in addition to believe in Him and confess to Him?  What other things must I do to receive this free gift?  It is sounding more and more less free.

[InCognitus]

3 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Cognitis said bishops need to be blameless.

Correction.  I'm not the one that said bishops need to be blameless.  Paul said it in his letter to Timothy in the Bible, in the New Testament.  I was quoting the Bible.

Edited July 31, 2022 by InCognitus

[webbles]

2 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Cognitis said bishops need to be blameless

He didn't say that.  He quoted the New Testament which is what says that.

[Ranch2727]

11 minutes ago, webbles said:

He didn't say that.  He quoted the New Testament which is what says that.

No sure how you can hate God and love him at the same time. I know he got it from the Bible. Maybe back then they were called by God and they were men of higher quality. I’m just pointing out the bishops of today are not always good men.  I have said this before, it’s not work to love God or confess and believe. When you are born again and have the scales removed from your eyes love is not work. 

[webbles]

2 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I know he got it from the Bible. Maybe back then they were called by God and they were men of higher quality. I’m just pointing out the bishops of today are not always good men.

I doubt the bishops of back then were any better than the bishops of today.  That doesn't discount the fact that bishops did and still do have requirements set forth by God (per the Bible).

2 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I have said this before, it’s not work to love God or confess and believe. When you are born again and have the scales removed from your eyes love is not work. 

So, after being born again, keeping the commandments isn't work either?  If so, then the beliefs of the church is very much in line with that.  The first principal of the gospel is "faith".  That is equivalent to "born again".  So once you have faith, then all the rest of the stuff that is being asked by Christ isn't work.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

What’s the point on earth be LDS when I can just die and do the work then?

Because your choices in this life influence who you become and why would the person who doesn’t care enough to change in this life care enough to give their all, all their might, mind, and strength and lay it on the altar for God if they have another chance?

Plus even if that wasn’t so, there is the joy of accepting Christ that we have in this life which is more than enough reason to begin our acceptance of Christ’s Atonement when we first learn of him. 
 

And for the very simple reason that if one worships and loves God, one wants to do what God tells us to do and God says “keep my commandments”.  I don’t understand how you can seemingly ignore that when it is all through the New Testament taught be Jesus himself.

Not an Latter-day Saint site:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Keeping-Christ~s-Commands

Quote

Matthew 28:20

teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

John 15:14

You are My friends if you do what I command you.

John 14:15

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21

He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 15:10

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2 John 1:6

And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

John 8:51

Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

John 8:52

The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’

1 John 2:4

The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 2:5

but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Calm

[Ranch2727]

12 hours ago, webbles said:

I doubt the bishops of back then were any better than the bishops of today.  That doesn't discount the fact that bishops did and still do have requirements set forth by God (per the Bible).

So, after being born again, keeping the commandments isn't work either?  If so, then the beliefs of the church is very much in line with that.  The first principal of the gospel is "faith".  That is equivalent to "born again".  So once you have faith, then all the rest of the stuff that is being asked by Christ isn't work.

After throwing a short study on this I have to admit that you are in fact correct.  Thanks for bringing that to my attention.  Really my first question was are those callings from God, Calm finally just said YES. Calm I like that you are able to answer questions without dancing around, I could do a better job at that and will do better. However   I would like to point out one thing.  To be called it said only one wife, how do you account for your early leadership during that bad polygamy era? Not looking to say gotcha, just curious.

[webbles]

16 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I would like to point out one thing.  To be called it said only one wife, how do you account for your early leadership during that bad polygamy era? Not looking to say gotcha, just curious.

Simple answer, the requirements for bishops and other people called of God is decided by God and He can change those requirements.  For example, Christians no longer follow the requirement that only literal descendants of Levi and Aaron may function as a priest.

Another answer is that other translations of that scripture don't require one wife.  For example, the NIV translates it as "faithful to his wife".  It is also possible to argue that the "one wife" is a minimum, not a maximum.

[Ranch2727]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Because your choices in this life influence who you become and why would the person who doesn’t care enough to change in this life care enough to give their all, all their might, mind, and strength and lay it on the altar for God if they have another chance?

Plus even if that wasn’t so, there is the joy of accepting Christ that we have in this life which is more than enough reason to begin our acceptance of Christ’s Atonement when we first learn of him. 
 

And for the very simple reason that if one worships and loves God, one wants to do what God tells us to do and God says “keep my commandments”.  I don’t understand how you can seemingly ignore that when it is all through the New Testament taught be Jesus himself.

Not an Latter-day Saint site:

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Keeping-Christ~s-Commands

 

I know Jesus said to keep his commandments, I’m not saying you shouldn’t try I’m saying good luck on succeeding.  
we cannot be saved by keeping his laws, we are saved by excepting him into our hearts. Again if you break even one law you have broken them all.  If you have been able to do that you are as good as the scribes and Pharisees.  

1 John 1: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.    
again Jesus came to fulfill the law not destroy the law.

Matthew 5:20 unless your righteousness  exceeds the righteousness the scribes and Pharisees you will by no means enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Ranch2727]

4 minutes ago, webbles said:

Simple answer, the requirements for bishops and other people called of God is decided by God and He can change those requirements.  For example, Christians no longer follow the requirement that only literal descendants of Levi and Aaron may function as a priest.

Another answer is that other translations of that scripture don't require one wife.  For example, the NIV translates it as "faithful to his wife".  It is also possible to argue that the "one wife" is a minimum, not a maximum.

Ok not sure about that but ok, as far as Christian’s and the priesthood I cannot agree with that. No nondenominational church that I’ve attended believes in the priesthood being transferable.   
Hebrews 7:24 He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.    
Greek word is aparabatos not transferable.  That’s what Christian’s believe and practice literally.