The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[Rain]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We believe there will be a 1,000 year period, after Jesus' return, called the Millennium during which spirits will be able to appear to living people, and request Baptism.

I've not heard this.  Do you have a source for it?  I mean I have heard things similar for people living now, but not really a millenium thing.  Personally, I thought of it as heavenly records given to us rather people coming individually to request baptism, but that was just my own thinking.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Think of the millions who lived before Jesus was on earth, who perhaps never even knew the name of Jesus much less his teachings, who now want, after instruction on the other side, by already Baptized missionaries to the dead, to be baptized themselves, and will be by proxy by living members. 

That is the major function of Temples and baptism for the dead.

 

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks! If I'm still here after 25 posts, I'll try to remember to come back and get this post a Like 😄

One thing I am ahead of my quota on is rep points (likes) due to my board addiction and all around pleasant demeanor, so there is no need.   

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've not heard this.  Do you have a source for it?  I mean I have heard things similar for people living now, but not really a millenium thing.  Personally, I thought of it as heavenly records given to us rather people coming individually to request baptism, but that was just my own thinking.

 

I don’t have a source, may try to find one later, but this was common in descriptions of the millennium in the past in my experience (not from leaders, but us common folk   ).  My guess is there has been less speculation in teaching in seminary, etc as years went on.  The general idea was the Millennium will be a mix of the living and dead on earth, so of course the dead would be helping out.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Rain said:

Do you have a source for it?

Quote

Many people have died without receiving these ordinances. People on the earth must perform these ordinances for them. This work is now being done in the temples of the Lord. There is too much work to finish before the Millennium begins, so it will be completed during that time. Resurrected beings will help us correct the mistakes we have made in doing research concerning our dead ancestors. They will also help us find the information we need to complete our records. (See Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:167, 251–52.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-45-the-millennium?lang=eng
 

Everyone needs to refresh their memory by reading GP every now and then.  
 

I just realized this does not answer your CFR as this is not the spirits themselves, but resurrected beings.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

The general idea was the Millennium will be a mix of the living and dead on earth, so of course the dead would be helping out.

The dead will likely just be visitors for some reason (crowded conditions, off creating worlds?):

Quote

Joseph Smith
While in conversation at Judge Adams’ during the evening, I said, Christ and the resurrected Saints will reign over the earth during the thousand years. They will not probably dwell upon the earth, but will visit it when they please, or when it is necessary to govern it. There will be wicked men on the earth during the thousand years. The heathen nations who will not come up to worship will be visited with the judgments of God, and must eventually be destroyed from the earth. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.268)

https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/PDF/Quotes/Millennium 2.pdf (great collection of quotes on the Millennium)

Quote

He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them when they shall have been officiated for, and bring them up. And we will have revelations to know our forefathers clear back to Father Adam and Mother Eve, and we will enter into the temples of God and officiate for them. 

 (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.116)
 

Quote

President Brigham Young has said that during the millennium those on the other side will work hand in hand with those in mortality and will furnish the names of the dead which we are unable to obtain through our research, and thus every soul that is entitled to these blessings shall be ferreted out and his work done for him. I fully believe that many among the dead, those who are worthy, are even now engaged in compiling records and arranging information, if it has not already been done, for this very purpose. Why should they not be so engaged? (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:120)

Quote

The great work of the millennium will be the salvation of the dead, and those who are on the other side will help us, too, by bringing us information. The ordinances for the salvation of the dead are mortal ordinances, because all these ordinances pertain to this life, and immortal beings cannot perform them. (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.166)

Quote

Joseph Fielding Smith
Those who will be living here then will be in daily communication with those who have passed through the resurrection, and they will come with this information, this knowledge that we do not have and will give it to those who are in mortality saying, “Now go into the temples and do this work; when you get this done, we will bring you other names.” And in that way every soul

who is entitled to a place in the celestial kingdom of God will be ferreted out, and not one soul shall be overlooked. The Lord has not overlooked these things. He has seen the end from the beginning. Every name is recorded. Bless your soul, when the Lord says that a sparrow cannot fall without the notice of the Father, do you think he will overlook the people who lived upon this earth, who have tried to the best of their ability to live righteously, but never had the privilege of receiving the gospel? He will give unto them these privileges of salvation and the right, through their obedience to the gospel which shall come unto them, of receiving exaltation in his kingdom. To think anything less than this would be an evil thought. God is just. He is merciful, and while mercy cannot rob justice, yet in the wisdom of our Father in heaven every soul shall receive blessings according to his merits and according to the mercies of our Heavenly Father, and he will do for the people the best he can. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:167)

Quote

Joseph Fielding Smith
Will resurrected beings during the millennium actually take part in the endowment work of the temple along with mortal beings? The answer to this question is no! That is, they will not assist in performing the ordinances. Resurrected beings will assist in furnishing information which is not otherwise available, but mortals will have to do the ordinance work in the temples.

 (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:178)
 

Quote

In this manner those who have passed through the resurrection, and who know all about people and conditions on the other side, will place in the hands of those who are in mortality, the necessary information by and through which the great work of salvation for every worthy soul shall be performed, and thus the purposes of the Lord, as determined before the foundation of the world, will be fully consummated. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:251-252)

So it looks like the majority of teaching is those resurrected will help for those not yet resurrected since they need their ordinances first, that records are being complied now as needed to be used later as well, but some quotes can be interpreted as the spirits themselves are either sought out or come calling to provide the info.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks! Now, not to beat this to death, but if everyone who wants baptism can be baptized during the millennium, what's the rush to baptize for the dead now?

 

Is it that going to the temple and performing ordinances there for dead people benefits the currently living Saint as well as the dead person?

As Malachi said, we must turn the hearts to the fathers, and the fathers to us, or else the earth would be wasted.  We are all to be ONE family of humanity, even Father, seen as one of us.  Everyone wants to help their own family, and genealogy is the tool, it's easy to pray for grandma, but someone unknown for 5000 years? Not so much.

We will need facilities (temples) to continue the work, and now is the time, the belief says, to do that.

It must be done on earth, I believe, to turn the earth itself into a one world wide temple; the earth itself is exalted as a dwelling place for a  resurrected and perfected Humanity.

We LDS are humanists raised to a level present "Humanism" cannot fathom- yet.

We seek the perfection of mankind, led by Our Father, as one family.

Thus also our stress on " family values"

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

what's the rush to baptize for the dead now?

 

Is it that going to the temple and performing ordinances there for dead people benefits the currently living Saint as well as the dead person?

Definitely, there can be a huge personal benefit as one goes to the temple, not only in making the connection with our ancestors and others, but all the benefits of service just as when we serve the living.  There is also the belief that many are waiting and it is a good thing to shorten their wait, that being limited in the Spirit is a form of bondage (thus we call it spirit prison, when for the righteous it is more a place of learning, probably better to call it a school or chapel).

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks! Now, not to beat this to death, but if everyone who wants baptism can be baptized during the millennium, what's the rush to baptize for the dead now?

Is it that going to the temple and performing ordinances there for dead people benefits the currently living Saint as well as the dead person?

Questions are an LDS bread and butter, the main idea is that the more work we do now will be less work in the millennium, which scriptures tell us that we'll be using the temple "day and night" for a millennia. An uncommon theory is that because the earth genealogy records are so poorly kept, that most if not all of it is basically just "practice" for the millennium.

We do think temple work is a benefit to the temple goer. 

7 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Okay... I can see that if basically everyone makes it in the end, it doesn't really matter if you're in the church now or not. I mean, if that's what you're saying 🤔❤️

So, somewhat related question popped up in my mind while reading your post. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask it or not, but here goes 😃 : People that aren't baptized before they die, do they have to be baptized by name by someone here on Earth? If so, how does that work for people who lived in times and places where those records weren't kept?

Not everyone, as C.S. Lewis put it, you have to accept that some people are going to be rebels to the end. That there will be those who can't or won't accept a proxy baptism done for them.

That is a great question. We don't know how, we assume better information will be available in the millennium, and with Christ himself on earth, overseeing the work, that at least he'd know.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Questions are an LDS bread and butter, the main idea is that the more work we do now will be less work in the millennium, which scriptures tell us that we'll be using the temple "day and night" for a millennia. An uncommon theory is that because the earth genealogy records are so poorly kept, that most if not all of it is basically just "practice" for the millennium.

We do think temple work is a benefit to the temple goer. 

Not everyone, as C.S. Lewis put it, you have to accept that some people are going to be rebels to the end. That there will be those who can't or won't accept a proxy baptism done for them.

Can't? What kind of people are you thinking can't accept? The third who followed Lucifer?  If someone else then how does that work with the atonement being for everyone?

6 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

That is a great question. We don't know how, we assume better information will be available in the millennium, and with Christ himself on earth, overseeing the work, that at least he'd know.

 

[Pyreaux]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

Can't? What kind of people are you thinking can't accept? The third who followed Lucifer?  If someone else then how does that work with the atonement being for everyone?

Sons of Perdition can't accept a baptism. Granted, they only became Sons of Perdition having already knowingly chosen to reject Christ and the atonement, so they made their choice already. I also don't know if they ever regret their decisions, and then find they are barred from accepting it during some lucid moment.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Leaf474]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

One thing I am ahead of my quota on is rep points (likes) due to my board addiction and all around pleasant demeanor, so there is no need.   

That's cool, then I'll just give you a heart now ❤️ 😄

[Leaf474]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

As Malachi said, we must turn the hearts to the fathers, and the fathers to us, or else the earth would be wasted.  We are all to be ONE family of humanity, even Father, seen as one of us.  Everyone wants to help their own family, and genealogy is the tool, it's easy to pray for grandma, but someone unknown for 5000 years? Not so much.

We will need facilities (temples) to continue the work, and now is the time, the belief says, to do that.

It must be done on earth, I believe, to turn the earth itself into a one world wide temple; the earth itself is exalted as a dwelling place for a  resurrected and perfected Humanity.

We LDS are humanists raised to a level present "Humanism" cannot fathom- yet.

We seek the perfection of mankind, led by Our Father, as one family.

Thus also our stress on " family values"

Thank you for that information ❤️

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Definitely, there can be a huge personal benefit as one goes to the temple, not only in making the connection with our ancestors and others, but all the benefits of service just as when we serve the living.  There is also the belief that many are waiting and it is a good thing to shorten their wait, that being limited in the Spirit is a form of bondage (thus we call it spirit prison, when for the righteous it is more a place of learning, probably better to call it a school or chapel).

Very interesting 🙂

[Leaf474]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

Questions are an LDS bread and butter, the main idea is that the more work we do now will be less work in the millennium, which scriptures tell us that we'll be using the temple "day and night" for a millennia. An uncommon theory is that because the earth genealogy records are so poorly kept, that most if not all of it is basically just "practice" for the millennium.

We do think temple work is a benefit to the temple goer. 

Not everyone, as C.S. Lewis put it, you have to accept that some people are going to be rebels to the end. That there will be those who can't or won't accept a proxy baptism done for them.

That is a great question. We don't know how, we assume better information will be available in the millennium, and with Christ himself on earth, overseeing the work, that at least he'd know.

Thank you for the input ❤️

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

That there will be those who can't or won't accept a proxy baptism done for them.

 It's hard to imagine that.

Our paradigm of death is that spirit prison is like earth life.

What I will now say is a parable about how I see it, and I believe my parable is doctrinal 

One will be aware that there are others who are better off than they are?  Isn't that unfair?

Asking around, they will find missionaries, from the "nicer neighborhoods" who will teach The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and those in "prison" will discover how to improve their immortal lives.

They will be taught by ancient and modern prophets and apostles and will SEE Jesus's kingdom, perhaps far off

Who would not accept that invitation to become like the folks "over there", by repentance?

Some might be perfectly happy staying as the are, and inherit the Telestial Kingdom, which we are told is still better than earthly life; yet most will want to go on toward perfection.

Edited April 18, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 It's hard to imagine that.

Our paradigm of death is that spirit prison is like earth life.

What I will now say is a parable about how I see it, and I believe my parable is doctrinal 

One will be aware that there are others who are better off than they are?  Isn't that unfair?

Asking around, they will find missionaries, from the "nicer neighborhoods" who will teach The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and those in "prison" will discover how to improve their immortal lives.

They will be taught by ancient and modern prophets and apostles and will SEE Jesus's kingdom, perhaps far off

Who would not accept that invitation to become like the folks "over there", by repentance?

Some might be perfectly happy staying as the are, and inherit the Telestial Kingdom, which we are told is still better than earthly life; yet most will want to go on toward perfection.

Cain. Cain can't or won't accept a baptism. Cain is a certified Son of Perdition. The Son(s) of Perdition are irredeemable, having cut themselves off from saving grace. We can't fathom a reason why they'd choose such a thing, which is probably the reason why we wouldn't choose to. It's the price of true freewill / agency. If it's all really a choice, someone is going choose against it, angel and human alike.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Cain. Cain can't or won't accept a baptism. Cain is a certified Son of Perdition. The Son(s) of Perdition are irredeemable, having cut themselves off from saving grace. We can't fathom a reason why they'd choose such a thing, which is probably the reason why we wouldn't choose to. It's the price of true freewill / agency. If it's all really a choice, someone is going choose against it, angel and human alike.

Didn't they technically already accept baptism and then go against it?  Can you have a son of perdition who died before they were baptized?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

Didn't they technically already accept baptism and then go against it?  Can you have a son of perdition who died before they were baptized?

Yes, they would have had to have at least the priesthood from what I understand. Sounds like full on endowment even or whatever was the equivalent of their era to me given what that level of knowledge needs to be first.

Quote

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

At the very least, Gift of the Holy Ghost (or the equivalent)…know God’s power and been made partakers of it sounds like priesthood to me.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?

Edited April 19, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Didn't they technically already accept baptism and then go against it?  Can you have a son of perdition who died before they were baptized?

Please know I'm not being argumentative.  I just couldn't think of a time where "can't" applies except pre-earth life and was curious what I was missing.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Yes, they would have had to have at least the priesthood from what I understand. Sounds like full on endowment even or whatever was the equivalent of their era to me given what that level of knowledge needs to be first.

At the very least, Gift of the Holy Ghost (or the equivalent)…know God’s power and been made partakers of it sounds like priesthood to me.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76?

It is said that they must have KNOWN the true glory of God, like looking directly into the sun, and denying its brightness. Sounds like full exaltation and then denying it due to total pride.

"Nothing CAN be greater than ME!" while seeing God face to face.

Even I couldn't do that. 👹

😇😉

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sounds like full exaltation and then denying it due to total pride.

I agree this is sounds right, but exaltation is after resurrection and judgment so more likely in the stage where one could be exalted, but then for whatever reason…perhaps the one sin one couldn’t set aside is pride…someone steps off the Way and full out rebels and hates the Father and the Son..  What a tragic exercise of agency.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Calm

[Dario_M]

Well one thing. The LDS church is really unique. The most unique church there is in my opinion. And that's.... kinda positive. This church is really colorfull. Like a 🌈.

[Tacenda]

Thought some would like this story! 

 

[InCognitus]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thought some would like this story! 

Thanks for posting this!   I haven't watched the full movie length 1.5 hour video you posted yet, but fortunately there's a 6:36 minute version trailer for it here