The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[InCognitus]

16 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

From Brigham Young:
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them - something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them - namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation - the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world.  He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim - "Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.     – Journal of Discourses 7:289 (Oct 9, 1859)

Note the red above.  It's a biblical principle that the prophets or apostles of a dispensation will judge according to the teachings given in that dispensation.  Note what Jesus said of the twelve apostles:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."  (Matthew 19:28)

How do you think that works?

[Ranch2727]

18 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Note the red above.  It's a biblical principle that the prophets or apostles of a dispensation will judge according to the teachings given in that dispensation.  Note what Jesus said of the twelve apostles:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."  (Matthew 19:28)

How do you think that works?

I don’t know any other way to ask the same question.  DO YOU HAVE TO BE LDS AND EXCEPT JOSEPH SMITH AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH!!! To go to the highest kingdom where God is? If I can’t get it answered this time I will just move on.

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I don’t know any other way to ask the same question.  DO YOU HAVE TO BE LDS AND EXCEPT JOSEPH SMITH AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH!!! To go to the highest kingdom where God is? If I can’t get it answered this time I will just move on.

One must accept the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by his prophets - yes.  One does not have to do so while in mortality.  

Think of all the people that Paul converted.  They had to accept and go through Paul to get to Jesus Christ and his gospel.  It is no different here. 

Does that answer your question directly enough?

Edited July 27, 2022 by pogi

[Ranch2727]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

One must accept the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by his prophets - yes.  One does not have to do so while in mortality.  

Think of all the people that Paul converted.  They had to accept and go through Paul to get to Jesus Christ and his gospel.  It is no different here. 

Does that answer your question directly enough?

So I don’t have to except LDS while I’m alive but I will when I’m dead. I’m not talking about Jesus I have excepted him. Do I have to except LDS at some point?

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

So I don’t have to except LDS while I’m alive but I will when I’m dead. I’m not talking about Jesus I have excepted him. Do I have to except LDS at some point?

You have to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by his prophets.  "The Church" will not even exist in the next life to accept.   I believe that you have accepted Jesus Christ, and if you continue in faithfulness, I believe that you will be led into the fullness of his gospel which is required for exaltation.  

It is about accepting the fullness of Christ's gospel.  His authorized servants in the church are simply his mouthpiece.  By accepting them (like converts accepted Paul as Christ's servant, you accept Him.  It is not about them, it is all about Him. 

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Maybe I can work on it a bit tonight.   Yes I know I have trouble communicating this, but it is like the Rorty quote below that no one seems to understand, yet for me it was like a light going on instantly.   Thanks for helping me clarify.   You are a great test for my abilities to explain this stuff!

Does the Rorty quote below help any?  Does it make sense to you?

 

Ok.  I will think about the Rorty quote.  Such things I like to process a bit. I may be away for a bit as I have a minor knee surgery in a couple hours.

[InCognitus]

46 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I don’t know any other way to ask the same question.  DO YOU HAVE TO BE LDS AND EXCEPT JOSEPH SMITH AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH!!! To go to the highest kingdom where God is? If I can’t get it answered this time I will just move on.

You have to acknowledge Jesus Christ and all he has done.  That would include receiving the prophets and apostles he sent out, which in this dispensation would include Joseph Smith.

Remember our prior discussion about what Jesus said about receiving his apostles and the seventy?:

Of apostles, Jesus said:  "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."  (Matthew 10:40)

Of the seventy, Jesus said:  "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." (Luke 10:16)

So according to Jesus, to receive his apostles and prophets is the same as receiving Jesus.   To reject his apostles and prophets is the same as rejecting Jesus.  You reject the authority and administration of Jesus Christ if you reject the way he administers and directs his church.  You would be rejecting Jesus and his teachings, because his teachings are spread throughout the world through the authority of his apostles and prophets.

If you lived at the time of Moses, could you reject Moses as a prophet and still be saved?   If you lived in New Testament times, could you reject Peter or Paul as an apostle and still be saved?   Could you look Jesus in the eye on judgement day and say, "I don't need your apostles and prophets, because all I need to do is believe in you and be saved"?

Edited July 27, 2022 by InCognitus

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You have to acknowledge Jesus Christ and all he has done.  That would include receiving the prophets and apostles he sent out, which in this dispensation would include Joseph Smith.

Remember our prior discussion about what Jesus said about receiving his apostles and the seventy?:

Of apostles, Jesus said:  "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."  (Matthew 10:40)

Of the seventy, Jesus said:  "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." (Luke 10:16)

So according to Jesus, to receive his apostles and prophets is the same as receiving Jesus.   To reject his apostles and prophets is the same as rejecting Jesus.  You reject the authority and administration of Jesus Christ if you reject the way he administers and directs his church.  You would be rejecting Jesus and his teachings, because his teachings are spread throughout the world through the authority of his apostles and prophets.

If you lived at the time of Moses, could you reject Moses as a prophet and still be saved?   If you lived in New Testament times, could you reject Peter or Paul as an apostle and still be saved?   Could you look Jesus in the eye on judgement day and say, "I don't need your apostles and prophets, because all I need to do is believe in you and be saved"?

I’ve always found it fascinating how non-LDS Christians, who really have no excuse for not knowing better,  seem to take it for granted that apostles and prophets are not essential to the true Church of Christ; and they continue to believe this even though the Bible makes it crystal clear that the true Church of Christ cannot exist without living apostles and prophets presiding over the Church. I find it difficult to imagine how someone with critical thinking skills could read and digest the following powerful testimony of the Apostle Paul and not come to the realization that living apostles and prophets are absolutely necessary to the proper function of the true Church of Christ (I suppose that they miss the obvious meaning of scriptures like the following simply because, at least in their experience, the church’s they attend have no apostles and prophets).

 

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17I If.the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.(1 Corinthians 12)

Edited July 27, 2022 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

No need for an apology but thank you. As a former member but now as a born again I understand the LDS views on being saved. Maybe I’m not not asking the question in the right way. So let me try again.  Now that I’m no longer LDS, but I have have excepted Jesus as my savior.  Can I reach the highest kingdom that all the LDS people are with God? Not the lower kingdoms but the highest not being LDS and excepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet? The statement below is why I ask.

From Brigham Young:
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them - something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them - namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation - the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world.  He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim - "Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.     – Journal of Discourses 7:289 (Oct 9, 1859)

the Bible says something way different.      

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.       
I do appreciate all of you helping  a new user. Thanks 

Prophets are not infallible and you should trust your own testimony on your path.

No human can tell you how God will judge you, or which path is the best for you.  Were I in your position I would follow God and what he tells me- it's your life!

Why would you listen to anybody else?

On the other hand, if you feel led back to the church, this might not be a bad start.  But remember there are critics here and diverse opinions so choose carefully that it is the Spirit you are following.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Prophets are not infallible and you should trust your own testimony on your path.

No human can tell you how God will judge you, or which path is the best for you.  Were I in your position I would follow God and what he tells me- it's your life!

Why would you listen to anybody else?

On the other hand, if you feel led back to the church, this might not be a bad start.  But remember there are critics here and diverse opinions so choose carefully that it is the Spirit you are following.

Wow, big thumbs up!! ❤️

[Ranch2727]

26 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I’ve always found it fascinating how non-LDS Christians, who really have no excuse for not knowing better,  seem to take it for granted that apostles and prophets are not essential to the true Church of Christ; and they continue to believe this even though the Bible makes it crystal clear that the true Church of Christ cannot exist without living apostles and prophets presiding over the Church. I find it difficult to imagine how someone with critical thinking skills could read and digest the following powerful testimony of the Apostle Paul and not come to the realization that living apostles and prophets are absolutely necessary to the proper function of the true Church of Christ (I suppose that they miss the obvious meaning of scriptures like the following simply because, at least in their experience, church’s have no apostles and prophets).

 

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17I If.the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.(1 Corinthians 12)

Yeah I know all those but yet there is no mention that you have to be LDS. So all the places  in the Bible that say this King James Bible
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I could go through and list the all but I know you already know about them.  I find it really odd wait very odd that LDS people carry the Bible.  Because you cannot tell me what parts are translated correctly, so I could throw that right back at you. How do you know those scriptures you just sent are correct? I finally after asking many times got my answer that was rhetorical but I wanted to hear it said. So thank you for being honest. Gods church is the body of believing Christian’s and not the body of the LDS church. Are there Mormons that will be saved? (Highest kingdom) Sure why not, but they will be joined with all the members in the body of Christ like me, maybe you.  Now you do need to be careful and not get duped into following false prophets, at least that’s what the Bible says.     I put all my trust in Jesus, my final prophet, high priest, apostle, teacher and My God.  Not all the works of a work based for salvation religion. Jesus says you must go through Him to get to God, LDS say you must have a passport from Joseph Smith. I will take my chances on ole’ Jesus.

[Ranch2727]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Prophets are not infallible and you should trust your own testimony on your path.

No human can tell you how God will judge you, or which path is the best for you.  Were I in your position I would follow God and what he tells me- it's your life!

Why would you listen to anybody else?

On the other hand, if you feel led back to the church, this might not be a bad start.  But remember there are critics here and diverse opinions so choose carefully that it is the Spirit you are following.

 

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Prophets are not infallible and you should trust your own testimony on your path.

No human can tell you how God will judge you, or which path is the best for you.  Were I in your position I would follow God and what he tells me- it's your life!

Why would you listen to anybody else?

On the other hand, if you feel led back to the church, this might not be a bad start.  But remember there are critics here and diverse opinions so choose carefully that it is the Spirit you are following.

Thanks for your honesty and I will just choose God. God Bless you

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I don’t know any other way to ask the same question.  DO YOU HAVE TO BE LDS AND EXCEPT JOSEPH SMITH AND THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH!!! To go to the highest kingdom where God is? If I can’t get it answered this time I will just move on.

Oh good grief - way to pull me out of the woodwork! ; ) I've been following the posts on this thread and now I have to chime in. My position has always been - as unsubstantiated as it is - that your acceptance/rejection of the teachings of the Church in this mortality cannot be a litmus on what happens to you after you die or at least there is no way for us to know. You'll be judged on your conscience alone and whether you stretched sufficiently toward your capacity - as informed by your conscience - while in this life. Does your capacity include acceptance of the LDS faith? Who knows? Having said that, I do believe that the ordinances/covenants made in this life/or after under priesthood authority will ultimately be done/made by everyone who ends up 'residing with Him' (whatever that means!). I don't see how any other position is viable. And as far as what BY said about JS making the big decisions about our future after this life, I believe JS would never make a decision that Christ would not make and hence, JS can be at the 'pearlies' stamping my ticket as long as I know Christ endorses it. For that matter, I don't care who greets me there (Gandhi?, MLK?, Genghis Khan?) as long as it is under the Savior's direction. ; )

By the way, welcome to the forum, Ranch. I appreciate your delivery. : ) 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

You have to acknowledge Jesus Christ and all he has done.  That would include receiving the prophets and apostles he sent out, which in this dispensation would include Joseph Smith.

Remember our prior discussion about what Jesus said about receiving his apostles and the seventy?:

Of apostles, Jesus said:  "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."  (Matthew 10:40)

Of the seventy, Jesus said:  "He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me." (Luke 10:16)

So according to Jesus, to receive his apostles and prophets is the same as receiving Jesus.   To reject his apostles and prophets is the same as rejecting Jesus.  You reject the authority and administration of Jesus Christ if you reject the way he administers and directs his church.  You would be rejecting Jesus and his teachings, because his teachings are spread throughout the world through the authority of his apostles and prophets.

If you lived at the time of Moses, could you reject Moses as a prophet and still be saved?   If you lived in New Testament times, could you reject Peter or Paul as an apostle and still be saved?   Could you look Jesus in the eye on judgement day and say, "I don't need your apostles and prophets, because all I need to do is believe in you and be saved"?

But it still boils down to who ARE the "true" prophets and who are not, so the bottom line is follow the spirit.

Without that, you have nothing!

"But what if I am not feeling the spirit, but my own emotions"?

God is your judge.  Christ knows your heart. Do your best and let the chips fall where they may.

If God is not just we are all up the creek without ANYTHING so it really doesn't matter.

That is why there are atheists.

But if you are here, chances are you are feeling something 

[Ranch2727]

29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But it still boils down to who ARE the "true" prophets and who are not, so the bottom line is follow the spirit.

Without that, you have nothing!

"But what if I am not feeling the spirit, but my own emotions"?

God is your judge.  Christ knows your heart. Do your best and let the chips fall where they may.

If God is not just we are all up the creek without ANYTHING so it really doesn't matter.

That is why there are atheists.

But if you are here, chances are you are feeling something 

Well said!!! Feeling something??

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Wow, big thumbs up!! ❤️

And a big thanks to you!

I think converts have an advantage in helping convert others because they have been there- done that!

If you grow up in the church, you have the problem of thinking about "well is this just my emotions and what I was taught that is indoctrinating me?"

Of course as a convert that is not even a possibility!

So in my initial thoughts when I FIRST started thinking about the church it was a total marvel to me to believe that God could and does actually speak ME?

But then it became common sense.

If "god" is "GOD" he would have to have a way to let us know what is right and wrong- and he does- the still small voice or conscience.

But is it God talking or only my brain!

With a pragmatic approach it doesn't matter !!

Within my mind I have an image of what behaviors are good and bad- and it is only reasonable to do good- or end up with a miserable life in prison and people hating you, lies, stealing etc etc.

On the other hand you have family love.   Pick between the two.   DUH! 

So now suppose God really "is only in my mind"   Yet I want to be the "best" I can be!   What does that mean??

One develops in one's mind what an "ideal human" would be.... always kind, loving, yet standing up for what is right, helping others etc etc.

As an atheist of course we think that stuff has evolved- why?  BECAUSE  IT WORKS!-  The world runs on "what works"

But IF there IS a "God" wouldn't he be the very image of "what works"??   He would be goodness itself, the Ideal Human.

But wait!!!!

This church over here with all the crazy golden plate stories and all that stuff- baptizing dead people- yuck- what does that mean?

But yet they worship the IDEAL HUMAN !!!  In fact they believe that WE CAN become perfect ourselves!   They think that the IDEAL HUMAN has taught us all that has evolved.

But wait!   IF there is an Ideal Human wouldn't he have the ability to tweak the environment here and there to allow ONLY THE CREATURES HE wanted to "evolve"?

I mean he could be doing his business all over the universe and stop in every Wednesday  and see that the Whatsa Bug needed a tweak here because he needs to become ants for the anteaters, and that grass has to be right for cows in a million years, so I have to tweak....

Of course that is not literal- the Ideal Human would have all that "wired" into self running mechanisms....  but that is my concept.  I mean if we can do AI and robots already.... the Ideal Human would be infinitely farther along.

No need for "Ex Nihilo".   Besides the Ideal Human would not need to be a transcendent cloud being everywhere and nowhere- he would be an IDEAL HUMAN we could see and love as our FATHER- not some cloud of glory.

But this is the key to "OUR" gospel- God is the Perfect and Ideal Human 

But what if a prophet goes wacko?   We children would always need a way to determine if that was the case- and besides even if it is "true" that God is an ideal human that is just some idea- we kids would need some special cell phone to call Mom and Dad if we get into real trouble!!

And so we do, the "light of Christ" or "conscience" or "Holy Ghost"-  we have that/ those "special cell phones"!

And once you learn about those specal "cell phones" you KNOW that there IS SOMEONE "out there" with an infinite intelligence who hears every thought.   

But of course this is just a parable, I hope it works for you or someone else, it sure works for me!

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Well said!!! Feeling something??

Who- me?  Yes I have had unspeakable experiences talking with God, but that is me.  I was wondering if you were understanding what you perhaps were not taught earlier in life.

Incidentally I will be very busy for a while and may not reply

 

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Yeah I know all those but yet there is no mention that you have to be LDS. So all the places  in the Bible that say this King James Bible
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I could go through and list the all but I know you already know about them.  I find it really odd wait very odd that LDS people carry the Bible.  Because you cannot tell me what parts are translated correctly, so I could throw that right back at you. How do you know those scriptures you just sent are correct? I finally after asking many times got my answer that was rhetorical but I wanted to hear it said. So thank you for being honest. Gods church is the body of believing Christian’s and not the body of the LDS church. Are there Mormons that will be saved? (Highest kingdom) Sure why not, but they will be joined with all the members in the body of Christ like me, maybe you.  Now you do need to be careful and not get duped into following false prophets, at least that’s what the Bible says.     I put all my trust in Jesus, my final prophet, high priest, apostle, teacher and My God.  Not all the works of a work based for salvation religion. Jesus says you must go through Him to get to God, LDS say you must have a passport from Joseph Smith. I will take my chances on ole’ Jesus.

So I see you missed my — and the Apostle Paul’s — whole point! If you believe you can be a member of the body of Christ (His Church) in good standing while saying you have have no need to be connected to the most important members of that body  — totally putting aside Paul’s most solemn warning not to do so —  you are free to do as you wish. But do understand that in doing so you are preaching and adhering to another gospel than that preached by Paul.

[Ranch2727]

13 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So I see you missed my — and the Apostle Paul’s — whole point! If you believe you can be a member of the body of Christ (His Church) in good standing while saying you have have no need to be connected to the most important members of that body  — totally putting aside Paul’s most solemn warning not to do so —  you are free to do as you wish. But do understand that in doing so you are preaching and adhering to another gospel than that preached by Paul.

Teddy aware, So what I’m reading is the most important part of the body is the members of the LDS church. So you are saying because the LDS have apostles and prophets that they are the important body of Christ. Also you are saying because Paul said that your church is the true church. You ignore Christ’s words in

Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 

So when do we listen to Paul ? Do we listen to him in Galatians? Galatians is one of the books that got me on my search. Paul setting up the church, leaving only to write them saying what the heck are you people doing? To me Galatians is talking about the LDS church right from the beginning.  

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

So you are saying because the LDS have apostles and prophets that they are the important body of Christ.

Not just Teddy, but Paul said that apostles and prophets are essential to the body of Christ:

1 Cor 12:28  "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Eph 2:19-22  "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

And Paul even taught that the offices of apostle and prophet are to continue in the church "till we all come in the unity of the faith":

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive"  (Eph 4:11-14)

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

You ignore Christ’s words in

Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 

It should already be obvious from the statements from Paul I quoted above, that these verses can't possibly be trying to tell us that there will be no prophets sent out after the coming of Christ.   In these verses from Hebrews, "these last days" refers to time recent to the writing of the book of Hebrews.  The writer is saying that God spoke to men through prophets anciently, but recently God sent his Son directly to be with men personally.  Jesus Christ, the Son of God, walked and talked with men on earth.  He spoke his word to them in person, face to face.  But these verses say nothing about what will happen after the coming of Christ.

In fact, Jesus told us:  

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."  (Matt 23:33-36)

Notice that Jesus says "I send unto you prophets" in the present tense.   Notice that the word "prophets" is plural. Notice also that Jesus says "and some of them ye shall kill and crucify" and also "and some of them shall ye scourge… and persecute".  This is speaking of future events.  So Jesus is saying that he is still sending out prophets of God after his time.

And prophets are noted to be teaching throughout the New Testament after the coming of Christ.

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

So when do we listen to Paul ?

Absolutely we listen to Paul.  We just need to read ALL of Paul and not just our favorite parts    Even the parts where Paul contradicts what you are saying, where he says apostles and prophets are to continue.

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

Do we listen to him in Galatians? Galatians is one of the books that got me on my search. Paul setting up the church, leaving only to write them saying what the heck are you people doing? To me Galatians is talking about the LDS church right from the beginning.

Did you read all of Galatians?  Including the ending, where Paul taught that we need to be engaged in well doing so we can reap life everlasting?  A lot of people miss that part.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

So what I’m reading is the most important part of the body is the members of the LDS church. 

The singular "church" (not the splintered and conflicting sectarian plural churches) represents the body of Christ - the whole body of Christ and not just the "most important" parts, according to scripture. 

[Ranch2727]

6 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Not just Teddy, but Paul said that apostles and prophets are essential to the body of Christ:

1 Cor 12:28  "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Eph 2:19-22  "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

And Paul even taught that the offices of apostle and prophet are to continue in the church "till we all come in the unity of the faith":

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive"  (Eph 4:11-14)

It should already be obvious from the statements from Paul I quoted above, that these verses can't possibly be trying to tell us that there will be no prophets sent out after the coming of Christ.   In these verses from Hebrews, "these last days" refers to time recent to the writing of the book of Hebrews.  The writer is saying that God spoke to men through prophets anciently, but recently God sent his Son directly to be with men personally.  Jesus Christ, the Son of God, walked and talked with men on earth.  He spoke his word to them in person, face to face.  But these verses say nothing about what will happen after the coming of Christ.

In fact, Jesus told us:  

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?  Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:   That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."  (Matt 23:33-36)

Notice that Jesus says "I send unto you prophets" in the present tense.   Notice that the word "prophets" is plural. Notice also that Jesus says "and some of them ye shall kill and crucify" and also "and some of them shall ye scourge… and persecute".  This is speaking of future events.  So Jesus is saying that he is still sending out prophets of God after his time.

And prophets are noted to be teaching throughout the New Testament after the coming of Christ.

Absolutely we listen to Paul.  We just need to read ALL of Paul and not just our favorite parts    Even the parts where Paul contradicts what you are saying, where he says apostles and prophets are to continue.

Did you read all of Galatians?  Including the ending, where Paul taught that we need to be engaged in well doing so we can reap life everlasting?  A lot of people miss that part.

Yes, like the Galatians the LDS started there own doctrine. Look how Galatians starts, sound familiar? Paul was letting them know the gospel was good news. I don’t see the teaching of the LDS is good news.  Work work, Gods gift was free to me just like it is for men, women, Jews, Greeks and slaves. Except Jesus and you are saved.  It says to follow Jesus, worship him, love him.  Again a gift isn’t a gift if you spend your life paying for it.  Test the prophets!!! I’ve tested your early prophets. This is what your prophet said about our Savior. Great servant for God. No thanks I will stick to my God!!
Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) 

[InCognitus]

5 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

No thanks I will stick to my God!!

Why do you never address any of the Bible verses and the questions I ask in my posts, but always respond to me by restating your beliefs or by trying to change to another topic?  You can believe whatever your choose to believe, I have no problem with that.  But you make accusations about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not being in harmony with the scripture, when about 80% of what you say contradicts scripture.  How do you account for the contradictions to scripture in your teachings?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Because you cannot tell me what parts are translated correctly, so I could throw that right back at you. How do you know those scriptures you just sent are correct?

How do you know?

We know what is truth when the Spirit witnesses it is truth to us, whether it is words from the prophets, words from scriptures, words from our neighbors or family.

Is it the same for you or do you use another standard and if you do, how do you know it is a standard God wants you to use?

——-

Joseph Smith said it would be a long time after our death before we comprehended the principles of exaltation (quote I am paraphrasing should be in my signature), so no matter who you are on earth and how you lived or what you knew or didn’t know, you will be learning much more of the gospel after death…and repenting of any error you made, including believing you knew enough for forever.  The Restored Church has a portion of what we need to know to get started on the path to be fully one of God’s family as well as some of the ordinances we need to perform or be performed for us in order to prepare to receive God’s blessings.  It may be possible that other faiths also have key principles, possibly even ordinances that we need to learn after death as well if we are not exposed to them in life.  Mortality is a very small part of the progression to exaltation, after all.  No one can be exposed to all we need to learn to be one with God.  Thankfully God is patient and loving and will provide whatever we need to get there is we desire what he desires for us.

Latter-day Saints will not be saved in exaltation if we only accept what we have learned in mortality, we must also be open to whatever further teachings that are coming that will allow us to be fully part of God’s Church of the Firstborn.  Everyone who has ever lived will need to accept what God wants to teach them, the parts he wants us to learn in this life and the parts he wants us to learn in the next.  One of the best blessings I believe is part of being a Saint is developing an understanding that revelation is continuing, there is more to learn and to learn to be open and listening for the Spirit.  When Saints think we have all we need to know ever in order to be saved, we will get into trouble imo.  We have enough for now if we are making use of the gifts God has given us.  Perhaps others of other faith do as well, I don’t know not having been in that situation and not having the Spirit witness to me I was on the right path for that faith…only for the Restored Gospel.  But I have heard enough nonmembers describe their seeking of God and their experience of the Spirit to believe God was pleased with where they were at that time.  Now if I or them are in the same spot in 1000 years, I don’t think God will be pleased with either of us.  He desires us to grow, not stay frozen in one so called perfect state forever.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I don’t see the teaching of the LDS is good news.  Work work…

That is not the message of the Restored Church.  That is your interpretation of it.  It is not surprising you left if that is how you understood it to be.  You aren’t the only one unfortunately.

Do you believe Christians should be eager to do God’s work?

Quote

follow Jesus, worship him, love him

How do you follow Jesus?  How do you worship him?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm