The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Thank you for proving my point that Latter day Saints now read into early passages later theology. But before JS became more inovatie in his theology nobody read the passages like you do now

So give me one reason why we "SHOULD"?   THAT is the great error- that we should all perceive the world in identical ways.   We don't.   We experience things differently.

And so now Steven Hawking sees gravity differently than Newton.

But apples still fall on heads- THAT is eternal.   We just describe the process differently.   Paradigms.

Does that help that what is eternal is constantly changing?  The experience of getting clobbered is eternal.   It's been experienced since we were still in the trees, but we just see it differently now.

The experience of what it is like to live a human life is eternal and repeated infinitely.   We all fall- spiritually AND physically.  We all get up again, spiritually but not always, sometimes we fall and cannot get up, and that is termed "death".   You can't have death until you fall!   There is STILL no death before the fall

All of humanity is CONSTANTLY "reading into early passages, later interpretations."

That Process-see "Process Theology" - is eternal from a subjective point of view, but an "eternal" occurance.

So eternal truth is the kind of truth God teaches- and what God teaches us is personal revelation through the still small voice.   You still have that and always will.

Eternal truth is what it is like to be human.

Paradigms are "para-dreams" we all have about what is "out there".  We all agree there IS something beyond our personal experiences but we cannot "Get there" except by talking about it

So what we have is the Eternal Subjective fighting to find something we can all agree on to call "Objective".  It ain't gonna happen.  THAT is part of being human.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Total opposite of what I was saying.

Ok.  Feel free to clarify.  I find your posting style rather rambling at times and hard to follow what exactly your point is.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Your "point" was that Joseph Smith was making this stuff up as he goes along and changed his theology through time.  And you said the "BoM and early passages in the D&C sound more like traditional Christianity".  Now you seem to be changing your "point" by agreeing that they can also be understood to teach Joseph Smith's later theology, which makes no sense if Joseph was really just making it up.  

I just read an essay showing how we we see as "exclusive" LDS doctrine can be found in the OT, the NT, Dead Sea Scrolls, all entwined in the BOM including direct temple practices.   It is literary evidence that is, to me, "proof" - and I do not use that word lightly- that "OUR" gospel in dribs and drabs has been taught through virtually all the time literature itself has existed.  Truly Joseph "Restored" what was ancient and lost!

There is no "earlier" or "later" theology- it is just a matter of our inventing those categories, like a coin showing "heads" AND "tails" at the same time.   The difference is in our perceptions; earlier implies later, and later is just a re-interpretation of the earlier!

Edited July 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  Feel free to clarify.  I find your posting style rather rambling at times and hard to follow what exactly your point is.

Maybe I can work on it a bit tonight.   Yes I know I have trouble communicating this, but it is like the Rorty quote below that no one seems to understand, yet for me it was like a light going on instantly.   Thanks for helping me clarify.   You are a great test for my abilities to explain this stuff!

Does the Rorty quote below help any?  Does it make sense to you?

Quote

 To say that the world is out there, that it is not our creation, is to say, with common sense, that most things in space and time are the effects of causes which do not include human mental states.  To say that truth is not out there is simply to say that where there are no sentences, there is no truth, that sentences are elements of human languages, and that human languages are human creations.

Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there.  The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not.  Only descriptions of the world can be true or false.  The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot."   Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Tacenda]

33 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  Feel free to clarify.  I find your posting style rather rambling at times and hard to follow what exactly your point is.

CP'd mfbukowski's intro under his avatar in the bold below. (I think it explains a lot! I tend to think that if I belonged to any church it'd still be the LDS church. But right now my ward is very toxic. And I don't believe everything in it. But it's still a nice place to be or use to be. And sounds like you're somewhat the same, or correct if wrong, I read something in the ministering thread. And BTW, same thing with me, no one in the ward reaches out. The Bishop dropped me once he knew of my faith crisis, I sometimes wonder if I hadn't told him, if it would have been different.)

"My purpose in being here is to influence others to understand how the philosophy of Pragmatism relates to Mormonism. I found the church through my philosophical understanding of Pragmatism."

prag·ma·tism

/ˈpraɡməˌtizəm/

 

noun

 

1. 1.

   a pragmatic attitude or policy.

   "ideology was tempered with pragmatism"

    
2. 2.

   PHILOSOPHY

   an approach that assesses the truth of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the success of their practical application.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Tacenda

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Contracts

When we work hard for God in order to earn his favor, we are not operating with faith. Instead, we are saying that we must add to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. His work wasn’t enough, and therefore we must work to make him happy — we must take it into our own hands to be accepted by God.  

This is where the confusion comes in. Equating the pursuit of godliness to legalism can cause a world of problems. This mistake eventually leads to projecting judgment on others and even living licentiously. But pursuing godliness and legalism are not the same. Legalism is a matter of the heart, not obedience to God and radical love for others. Legalism is when we’re trying to earn God’s favor to be saved, not when we’re following Jesus because we’re saved by grace.
 

Eph 2: 8-9  

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 
 

You're missing the point. When we work hard for God it's because we have become part of his army, part of his organization. It's not because we think it'll affect our salvation. When I house the homeless or feed the hungry it's not because I'm going to get a gold star and be saved it's because that is what Christ inspires me to do as a private in His army.

Edited July 26, 2022 by rodheadlee

[Ranch2727]

I agree with what you just said, but I’m not missing the point. As a non LDS I’m told from your very first prophet to today that Mormons are saved and I’m not. When I ask why? They say….. because  I don’t go to a LDS church, temples, I don’t do all the temple works, like work for the dead, married in the temple, take out covenants. So my point is, LDS teaches you have to do those things or no heaven for me. And I’m talking about your highest exaltation living with God not the lower kingdoms that the people live in that didn’t except the joseph smith plan. Maybe this group isn’t like that but that’s your stern doctrine from your church.  Your second prophet said “ you must have a passport from joseph to enter in where God dwells.  So can you tell me that the LDS doctrine and people don’t practice that? If I’m born again and only worship God will I go to the highest kingdom that the LDS believe in? 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

just read an essay showing how we we see as "exclusive" LDS doctrine can be found in the OT, the NT, Dead Sea Scrolls, all entwined in the BOM including direct temple practices. 

Essay name please, I want my daughter to read this. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

1. PHILOSOPHY

   an approach that assesses the truth of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the success of their practical application.

THAT to me is what it is all about.  The BELIEF itself that we have a Father  who is a glorified human, whom we can worship-  BECAUSE we believe He is perfect the very practical idea that if you do what this "perfect person" would do, or did, in any situation or story is one of the most important ideas mankind has.

We worship IDEALS of perfection and yet we need not be guilty for falling short, because ultimately we can be forgiven if we do our very best to overcome our faults, and this is guaranteed by our Ideal Father through his "Son" who actually lived as we do in this wonderful world of pain and pleasure.  It is called the "atonement".  The Son was murdered painfully by hanging on a cross though he was completely innocent.   And so he had experienced EVERY emotion good and bad that humans can possibly experience so we humans know that in bad times we know that HE ALSO felt all our trials and was able to overcome them.

And now because he had experienced all this, because of his infinite ability to be empathetic (my personal view of the atonement- I have trouble with the idea of "paying for sin) he is able to help and comfort us through the "still small voice" we know as our "conscience", which guides all humans to know right from wrong.

And so we seek to be perfect humans too.  But how can we?   ONLY by emulating our Father and his Son to the best of our abilities - as THEY also did- !

AND we can actually become LIKE them in the eternities.

Everyone has a shot at this- and if they do not even know about this belief we believe that they will have an opportunity AFTER they die- SO the plan is perfectly fair to every human that has ever lived

And indeed eventually all will see this as a true belief, and "every knee shall bow"

I see this as the best paradigm or theory for the perfection of humanity that has been created.

It is a practical and beneficial set of beliefs that also goes much further 

But here is the clincher:   GOD CAN "SPEAK" to you - through what we call your "conscience" and SHOW YOU that the paradigm is TRUE!   AND HE WILL!

The story of my conversion is much more compliated but this is the basis of how I see the paradigm itself as justifiable through a pragmatic view, but it is justified by the religious experience.   Absent that, it is just a story.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I don’t see any faith there

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/article/articles-of-faith
 

Maybe they assume since you were a member, you would understand it is a given, one of the fundamentals everything else is built on.  A fish probably wouldn’t mention water.  Do you mention breathing air as part of what is needed to serve God in this life?

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These are a small fraction of what gets pulled up when I search the Church’s website for “Faith”.

All through our scriptures we read through every four years…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/faith?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist/believe/bible/bible-verses-about-faith

Throughout our study manuals and teaching aids and messages from leaders…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/faith-in-jesus-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/children/resources/topics/faith?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2018/08/what-is-faith?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-a/gospel-principles-and-doctrines/lesson-27-faith-in-jesus-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2009/05/faith-in-the-lord-jesus-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2012/01/how-to-show-faith-in-christ?lang=eng

In our music…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/faith?lang=eng

(there are a number more, but my browser and the music library are not compatible so it only pulled up the title Faith.)

If you use the Church’s music app, it will pull up around 40 songs from our songbook, very popular ones too as well as show songs about faith that were recently sung in General Conference or published in our magazines.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

As a non LDS I’m told from your very first prophet to today that Mormons are saved and I’m not.

This is a total lie.  Please continue learning the truth.   It takes time and effort.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Essay name please, I want my daughter to read this. 

It is yet unpublished.  I will let you know

[Ranch2727]

What I can’t understand is I asked a question but didn’t see any answer. Also when someone writes something that has a great deal of information in it and you say this is a total lie. Well not sure if you are saying my comments about your prophets or the stuff that faithful LDS people have said to me.  Hell my wife is a faithful LDS women and I go to church with her.  She told me if it came down to a serious situation she would like a LDS person to lay hands on her rather than me. It stung a bit but at least she was honest. Are you?  So answer my question. I go to a Bible church, I excepted God and his son Jesus, pay my tithe, baptized, and was born again. Can I go to the highest kingdom that the LDS believe they are all going.  Or do I need to be LDS?

As far as what your prophets said, do I really need to point them out, with only a little bit of effort you can find those things.  After all didn’t Joseph smith say he has done more than even Jesus because his people haven’t left him yet?

 

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Ranch2727 said:

What I can’t understand is I asked a question but didn’t see any answer. Also when someone writes something that has a great deal of information in it and you say this is a total lie. Well not sure if you are saying my comments about your prophets or the stuff that faithful LDS people have said to me.  Hell my wife is a faithful LDS women and I go to church with her.  She told me if it came down to a serious situation she would like a LDS person to lay hands on her rather than me. It stung a bit but at least she was honest. Are you?  So answer my question. I go to a Bible church, I excepted God and his son Jesus, pay my tithe, baptized, and was born again. Can I go to the highest kingdom that the LDS believe they are all going.  Or do I need to be LDS?

As far as what your prophets said, do I really need to point them out, with only a little bit of effort you can find those things.  After all didn’t Joseph smith say he has done more than even Jesus because his people haven’t left him yet?

 

It's been discussed on the board several times in the past. The difference from what has been said is that yes you will be saved, but only those that are endowed and with a current recommend will be exalted, so I guess become gods/godesses or priests/priestesses and will be able to have spirit children.

And I'm not totally sure about the Celestial Kingdom, if that is your meaning of the highest kingdom. I learned on this board first, that there are three kingdoms within the CK, so you might be able to. So for sure you may live with Jesus, He visits the kingdoms, but not live with God. Which is a big incentive to go to the temple and receive your endowment which I did do, but now that my recommend is expired, I don't know where I'll go if the LDS church is indeed Christ's church on earth. Maybe I'm considered an apostate and will go to outer darkness.

[Ranch2727]

Thank you, that’s my point. I know all about the different kingdoms and where Jesus is allowed to visit, funny men are telling Jesus where he can and cannot go. I am well aware of what they  consider the highest exalted place to live with God.  I think my question is simple, do I HAVE to be LDS get there? Because I have yet to read that in the Bible. How much do the Mormons have to boast?

[Ranch2727]

Also I don’t want to be a God, a priest or have spirit children. I’m a servant to God and have no problem serving God in heaven. One of the saddest things I’ve seen was last year. My wife’s niece was getting baptized, her young dad wasn’t able to dunk her because he was not worthy enough in the eyes of the church.  So does he need to be worthy to the church or try his best to be worthy before God? So sad to see, that was his daughter, disgusting!!!

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Thank you, that’s my point. I know all about the different kingdoms and where Jesus is allowed to visit, funny men are telling Jesus where he can and cannot go. I am well aware of what they  consider the highest exalted place to live with God.  I think my question is simple, do I HAVE to be LDS get there? Because I have yet to read that in the Bible. How much do the Mormons have to boast?

That's a problem since less than 2% are LDS in the world. But then there is the redemption of dead in the temple done on earth and during the millennium I guess. So if you don't rejoin in this life there's a chance you could change your mind in the afterlife.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Also I don’t want to be a God, a priest or have spirit children. I’m a servant to God and have no problem serving God in heaven. One of the saddest things I’ve seen was last year. My wife’s niece was getting baptized, her young dad wasn’t able to dunk her because he was not worthy enough in the eyes of the church.  So does he need to be worthy to the church or try his best to be worthy before God? So sad to see, that was his daughter, disgusting!!!

Ranch2727, it's a belief and we should respect it as that and move on I guess. Took me a few years to be able to move on and get over angry phases. Do you have any Atheists that tell you not everything in the Bible is to be believed? Or maybe you understand already that there are mistakes, not sure. 

[carbon dioxide]

5 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I agree with what you just said, but I’m not missing the point. As a non LDS I’m told from your very first prophet to today that Mormons are saved and I’m not. When I ask why? They say….. because  I don’t go to a LDS church, temples, I don’t do all the temple works, like work for the dead, married in the temple, take out covenants. So my point is, LDS teaches you have to do those things or no heaven for me. And I’m talking about your highest exaltation living with God not the lower kingdoms that the people live in that didn’t except the joseph smith plan. Maybe this group isn’t like that but that’s your stern doctrine from your church.  Your second prophet said “ you must have a passport from joseph to enter in where God dwells.  So can you tell me that the LDS doctrine and people don’t practice that? If I’m born again and only worship God will I go to the highest kingdom that the LDS believe in? 

Almost everyone is saved to one degree or another. Only sons of perdition are the ones that are really screwed.  If your average wicked person on the street will eventually inherit the telestial kingdom. A level of glory that is at least on par with that this world we live in is like.   That is unlike other christians who say that if is not a believer, they are going to hell.  

Very good non-LDS people can inherit the terrestrial kingdom.  A kingdom many times greater than the world we live in right now.  They can even dwell with Jesus as Jesus does administer to that kingdom.   In many ways the Terrestial Kingdom is the heaven that all non-lds christians believe in. If they could be shown the terrestrial kingdom, they would declare that it is heaven.  It checks all the boxes they believe in. 

The Celestial Kingdom is for those who desire more.  It is a kingdom of many exalted beings.  A kingdom of Gods.  So no you will not inherit that kingdom. Why should you inherit a kingdom that you don't believe exists?   Why should God give you a kingdom that you did not qualify yourself for while others in that kingdom did qualify themselves for?  God is a fair and just God.   If you do well he will grant you the desires of your heart.  Things that you do not believe exists are not a part of the desires of your heart. Therefore you will not get them.  It is completely fair.

Edited July 27, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[Tacenda]

Also, Ranch2727, how do you feel about gays and those that are married or dating? Do you believe they are condemned to hell? Where is their salvation if so, at least the LDS don't condemn people to hell. Or maybe in some scriptures in the Book of Mormon hell is mentioned, but not the current doctrine, unless they deny Christ. I'm not trying to be antagonistic but the Bible churches out there and I disagree for the most part. My insurance man, left the LDS church, and became a born again and he was at one time trying to get me to go to his new church, a Bible church. When I told him I support gay marriage and believe that gays for the most part, are born that way. That's when the road ended on me being accepted at his church I believe. So I'm in your boat in a weird kind of way. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Tacenda

[Ranch2727]

I do respect their beliefs. I know what goes on in the temple and that is the one place I stay away from.  It only bothers me when I have a conversation with a member and they say they believe the same things that I do. That is so far off base it’s silly. But when their foundation is based on a man claiming that all other creeds are an abomination. I have to call it out.

Joseph Smith (History of the Church Vol. 4 p. 461)
• The First vision
“I asked the Personages in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join...I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his site.”
Some members might not feel that way but their first prophet sure did, that’s not respect.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Can I go to the highest kingdom that the LDS believe they are all going.  

At this point in time, if you are honestly seeking God, you are as likely to go to the highest kingdom after death and whatever we (all of us, not just nonLatter-day Saints) have to learn of, repent our errors for, and accept from Christ is done and we all are judged by God as worthy for exaltation or not.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Ranch2727 said:

they say they believe the same things that I do.

I suspect they are limiting it to a certain set of beliefs or a specific topic.  I cannot imagine a member saying they have identical beliefs as you because that would me you would either be a Saint or they would be a nonmember.

[Ranch2727]

Thank you for your honest answer, you are not in the same company of the LDS people I talk to including my beautiful wife and her very LDS family. You could say that I’m the elephant in the room when thay all get together 😂 

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

Also I don’t want to be a God, a priest or have spirit children. I’m a servant to God and have no problem serving God in heaven.

Yes and LDS do believe that you will get that opportunity.  One does not need to go the Celestial kingdom to serve God. Your desires can be 100% fulfilled in a Terrestrial kingdom state.  The LDS Church is for those who desire the Celestial Kingdom.  If one wants to give that kingdom up, they don't need to be LDS.   Its a good, better, best choice.   The Celestial kingdom is the best choice but if good or better is all one wants, they can get that without ever accepting the LDS view of things. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by carbon dioxide