The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

their first prophet sure did, that’s not respect.

And if it was God who said that as Joseph stated, would we not be foolish to pretend he didn’t?

But do you understand what was meant by their creeds were an abomination and what is implied by that, why Saints believe God views certain creeds as abominations?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Ranch2727 said:

Thank you for your honest answer, you are not in the same company of the LDS people I talk to including my beautiful wife and her very LDS family. You could say that I’m the elephant in the room when thay all get together 😂 

You need to quote who you are responding to, so we can connect conversations when multiple people are responding to you.

[Ranch2727]

Calm, I think we might be able to agree on this…. Most LDS do not know their church doctrine or study. At least in the Springville Provo area.

[Ranch2727]

Just now, Calm said:

You need to quote who you are responding to, so we can connect conversations when multiple people are responding to you.

Ok thanks that makes sense oops

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Thank you for your honest answer, you are not in the same company of the LDS people I talk to including my beautiful wife and her very LDS family. You could say that I’m the elephant in the room when thay all get together 😂 

This hopefully will give you an outlet to speak your mind, it has been for me when I've needed an outlet amongst all of my very LDS friends and extended family. People on this board are not your average LDS, they know every wart under the sun in the church. And you're able to discuss those warts as long as it's a respectful discussion or keeping the board rules is a must. You see, I'm on "Limited" status which means I only get 12 posts a day. I've been banned from certain threads and I started way too many threads I guess, so now being on limited limits my ability to do that anymore. And maybe I crossed the line in things I've said as well. I hope you stick around, I hope it helps your mixed faith marriage too. Just come here, haha. Edit to add: I know you meant your comment for Calm. Just responded anyway.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Tacenda

[Ranch2727]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

And if it was God who said that as Joseph stated, would we not be foolish to pretend he didn’t?

But do you understand what was meant by their creeds were an abomination and what is implied by that, why Saints believe God views certain creeds as abominations?

I understand the creeds, as far as having faith that Joseph Smith talked to God that day, I have no faith in that.  Too many different visions recorded, one shouldn’t have to decide which one to believe.

[Ranch2727]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

This hopefully will give you an outlet to speak your mind, it has been for me when I've needed an outlet amongst all of my very LDS friends and extended family. People on this board are not your average LDS, they know every wart under the sun in the church. And you're able to discuss those warts as long as it's a respectful discussion or keeping the board rules is a must. You see, I'm on "Limited" status which means I only get 12 posts a day. I've been banned from certain threads and I started way too many threads I guess, so now being on limited limits my ability to do that anymore. And maybe I crossed the line in things I've said as well. I hope you stick around, I hope it helps your mixed faith marriage too. Just come here, haha. 

Well thank you, I have a pretty level head and know where not to dive into. I do like this group, they make you think, I hope I can do the same for others.

[Ranch2727]

13 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes and LDS do believe that you will get that opportunity.  One does not need to go the Celestial kingdom to serve God. Your desires can be 100% fulfilled in a Terrestrial kingdom state.  The LDS Church is for those who desire the Celestial Kingdom.  If one wants to give that kingdom up, they don't need to be LDS.   Its a good, better, best choice.   The Celestial kingdom is the best choice but if good or better is all one wants, they can get that without ever accepting the LDS view of things. 

See that’s honestly, so one must be LDS and do all the temple work to be exalted to the highest kingdom where God lives that others can’t visit. The place that you must have a passport drone Joseph Smith. Thanks 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

See that’s honestly, so one must be LDS and do all the temple work to be exalted to the highest kingdom where God lives that others can’t visit. The place that you must have a passport drone Joseph Smith. Thanks 

Members rarely say much about Joseph Smith giving passports. In fact if you watch General Conference the church is definitely speaking more on Jesus Christ than Joseph Smith. I still watch every conference if I can. Just go on LDS.org and you'd see that the church seems to be more mainstream than ever. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

What I can’t understand is I asked a question but didn’t see any answer. Also when someone writes something that has a great deal of information in it and you say this is a total lie.

Please repeat the question.  With multiple people responding to different parts of your conversation, they may see a connection in a comment to a question that you do not and assume that answers it for you or they may not be intending to deal with it.

As far as the response to mob’s “total lie” sentence…rather than say “someone”, please use the name of the poster you are referring to.  It is hard to understand what point you are making if we don’t know what post you are referring to.  
 

I believe Mfb (and hopefully he will clarify if I am wrong) was saying the claim all our prophets have said Mormons are saved and you (a nonmember) are not is the total lie.  The idea all Mormons and only Mormons are saved isn’t true in a couple of ways.  When Saints speak of salvation, we mean it two ways usually.  One is physical salvation and everyone ever born is saved from physical death through the Atonement and will be resurrected.  The second reference for salvation is being saved from spiritual death, and this may be saved in any kingdom, so all but a few who were born on earth are saved in this context.

But salvation is often used by Saints as a synonym for exaltation…where there is a full acceptance of the Atonement and we are fully one with the Father and the Son and therefore suffer no spiritual separation from them.  Some leaders have used spiritual death for spiritual separation, so that those who do not fully accept the Atonement with all their mind, heart, and soul are said to suffer some amount of spiritual death…but I think that is confusing since we never speak of being partially dead.  It is all or nothing.  But full spiritual death is Outer Darkness and very few mortals are heading there.

As to why Mfb said your comment about salvation was a total lie, no prophet has ever said all Saints are saved (if by that you mean headed for exaltation) and no nonmember is ever saved.  In fact, some have made a point to say many in the Church won’t be receiving exaltation while others outside the Church may eventually.  I will try and find quotes to back this up unless someone else posts them.

If you still believe that our prophets have said in essence “Mormons are saved and [you’re] not”, please provide the quotes that support this (the board rules requires a poster to document if asked any factual claim, you may be asked to do this as a challenge as I am doing here as I want to know why you have concluded our prophets say this when they haven’t or because others are interested in learning more or to help clarify what you mean if it is confusing.). In the future I may say “CFR”, which is short for “call for references”.  I like to understand how people got to their conclusions more than to debate them…I am not that interested in debating, but will speak up if someone has the wrong idea about our beliefs and teachings or practices or history, for that matter, because while I believe there are valid reasons for people not to have faith in the Church, I think it is a shame if they leave the Church or reject it because a false idea (a false idea that often comes from nonmembers misinterpreting our beliefs, but also from members who either are ignorant of details or confused by teachings themselves and haven’t studied them sufficiently well so they can clearly teach them or use poor choice of language to teach/share and instead of clarify, confuse).

On the board, with its mix of believers and nonbelievers, if you [speaking generically and not just to ranch] mean exaltation, it is least confusing to use that rather than salvation as context may not be clear which definition of salvation you are using.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[Ranch2727]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Members rarely say much about Joseph Smith giving passports. In fact if you watch General Conference the church is definitely speaking more on Jesus Christ than Joseph Smith. I still watch every conference if I can. Just go on LDS.org and you'd see that the church seems to be more mainstream than ever. 

Well we will need to agree to disagree, I still go to church as painful as it is for me.  Jesus is usually not always but usually a footnote. During their talks the quote more from prophets and apostles than Jesus. My wife teaches primary and I see her lessons and where they lead to.  Her bishop I actually like, he is one that will kind of preach a little from time to time.

[Ranch2727]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Please repeat the question.  With multiple people responding to different parts of your conversation, they may see a connection in a comment to a question that you do not and assume that answers it for you or they may not be intending to deal with it.

As far as the response to mob’s “total lie” sentence…rather than say “someone”, please use the name of the poster you are referring to.  It is hard to understand what point you are making if we don’t know what post you are referring to.  I believe Mfb was saying the claim all our prophets have said Mormons are saved and you (a nonmember) are not.  This isn’t true in a couple of ways.  When Saints speak of salvation, we mean it two ways usually.  One is physical salvation and everyone ever born is saved from physical death through the Atonement and will be resurrected.  The second reference for salvation is being saved from spiritual death, and this may be saved in any kingdom, but salvation is often used as a synonym for exaltation…where there is a full acceptance of the Atonement and we are fully one with the Father and the Son and therefore suffer no spiritual separation from them.  Some leaders have used spiritual death for spiritual separation, so that those who do not fully accept the Atonement with all their mind, heart, and soul are said to suffer some amount of spiritual death…but I think that is confusing since we never speak of being partially dead.  It is all or nothing.  But full spiritual death is Outer Darkness and very few mortals are heading there.

As to why Mfb said your comment about salvation was a total lie, no prophet has ever said all Saints are saved (if by that you mean headed for exaltation) and no nonmember is ever saved.  In fact, some have made a point to say many in the Church won’t be receiving exaltation while others outside the Church may eventually.  I will try and find quotes to back this up unless someone else posts them.

If you still believe that our prophets have said in essence “Mormons are saved and [you’re] not”, please provide the quotes that support this (the board rules requires a poster to document if asked any factual claim, you may be asked to do this as a challenge as I am doing here as I want to know why you have concluded our prophets say this when they haven’t or because others are interested in learning more or to help clarify what you mean if it is confusing.). In the future I may say “CFR”, which is short for “call for references”.  I like to understand how people got to their conclusions more than to debate them…I am not that interested in debating, but will speak up if someone has the wrong idea about our beliefs and teachings or practices or history, for that matter, because while I believe there are valid reasons for people not to have faith in the Church, I think it is a shame if they leave the Church or reject it because a false idea (a false idea that often comes from nonmembers misinterpreting our beliefs, but also from members who either are ignorant of details or confused by teachings themselves and haven’t studied them sufficiently well so they can clearly teach them or use poor choice of language to teach/share and instead of clarify, confuse).

I think I’ve figured it out and thanks for the help. I have no problem with CFR and I will do that for this conversation and moving forward.But for now it’s late for me and I start early in the AM. God bless

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Well we will need to agree to disagree, I still go to church as painful as it is for me.  Jesus is usually not always but usually a footnote. During their talks the quote more from prophets and apostles than Jesus. My wife teaches primary and I see her lessons and where they lead to.  Her bishop I actually like, he is one that will kind of preach a little from time to time.

Well, I did say General Conference, lol. Yes, I get it. I use to listen while in my journey of a faith crisis and jot down each time Jesus was brought up during Sacrament meetings and it sometimes was only when the prayers were said. And often it's more on temples, missions, BoM, etc and you name it. I was crying inside for stories of Jesus and more emphasis on Him each Sunday. But LDS worship Him through missions, temples, scriptures, prayer etc. It's like Jesus is the bowl of soup and all the other things are the ingredients in the bowl of soup. I know, lame analogy. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

Calm, I think we might be able to agree on this…. Most LDS do not know their church doctrine or study. At least in the Springville Provo area.

Most do not know all of it.  They know a lot of it and imo they know the most important parts of it, which are the first principles and ordinances as named in the Article of Faith #4 and the first two great commandments…”Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

And in the end this is what will get anyone into heaven and exaltation, being one with the Father and Son.

I believe a Saint who is out there spending their time helping the neighbour get their ox out of the more, comforting the widows and poor through their efforts knows the gospel much, much better than those who spend their time in academic study of church doctrine and history and have little time to spare for getting out and seeing who could use a hand.  But academic study can help deepen commitment to the Gospel, so it has great value as well…it just shouldn’t be our primary mode of filling our lives with the Gospel.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

I understand the creeds, as far as having faith that Joseph Smith talked to God that day, I have no faith in that.  Too many different visions recorded, one shouldn’t have to decide which one to believe.

But do you understand why we believe God views their creeds as abominations?

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

Too many different visions recorded, one shouldn’t have to decide which one to believe.

A topic for another thread as it gets too confusing and hard to follow to discuss too much in one thread , so I will just briefly state I think they are relatively easy to reconcile with each other if one is aware of language (the way Joseph, scripture, and the culture he lived in refers to the Father and the Son and about how people vary narratives about their experiences depending on the audience of who they are talking to…similar to how each of the Gospel writers chose to focus on different aspects of Jesus’ life and teachings, yet we assume they do not fundamentally contradict each other).

[Calm]

Ranch, you have enough posts now, you can start a thread in this main forum so that you both get more views and don’t get threads locked as Social Hall is for socializing mostly and no debate.  I would suggest choosing a relative narrow topic for a thread because several of us are nitpickers and detail orientated and a broad topic can inflate a thread quickly and create lots of details.  You can also ask that posters not derail, not socialize or whatever leads us off track if you are the opening poster.

Oh, and you don’t want to have more than a couple active threads going at a time as mods don’t like the board to get flooded with a time of threads as this pushes topics to the second page before they are more or less exhausted.  Threads on the second page may die a premature death if the front page has been flooded with new threads.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I did say General Conference, lol. Yes, I get it. I use to listen while in my journey of a faith crisis and jot down each time Jesus was brought up during Sacrament meetings and it sometimes was only when the prayers were said. And often it's more on temples, missions, BoM, etc and you name it. I was crying inside for stories of Jesus and more emphasis on Him each Sunday. But LDS worship Him through missions, temples, scriptures, prayer etc. It's like Jesus is the bowl of soup and all the other things are the ingredients in the bowl of soup. I know, lame analogy. 

We believe Jesus wants us to do these things and we talk about them in church to mutually support each other in doing what Christ commands.  I know of people who use the Martha and Mary story to complain Saints are too focused on doing things while Jesus was telling us we should be learning the things of God while we have the chance, but Martha was working on dinner and the house and not specifically the work commanded by the Lord.  I think if you look at the talk of the temple and missionary work, etc. as parallel to when Jesus is instructing his disciples and apostles on how they should go about doing good things in his name, you are closer to the reality of what church is meant to be…though we don’t always get there.

We worship Jesus by doing what he asks of us.  He doesn’t want us to just learn of him and feel his love, there is a purpose behind that learning and that is to take what we feel and know of his love and share it with others through the ways he has instructed us (temple and family history work is sharing his love with our families and our dead, missionary work is sharing his love with nonmembers, welfare work is sharing his love with those in need, reading scriptures and praying is sharing his love with ourselves, etc).

Having said that, learning of Jesus Christ himself and the Father will strengthen our desire to be charitable, give deeper purpose to it, so we need to provide a good balance between learning of God and sharing God’s love.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

During their talks the quote more from prophets and apostles than Jesus.

When you quote the Gospels, you are quoting what the authors and translators are saying about Jesus, not Jesus.  I don’t see much difference between hearing Jesus’ teaching from those he has often directly taught through revelation and reading Jesus’ teachings as conveyed by authors who may have been directly inspired themselves or taught by those who received revelations.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Calm

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

See that’s honestly, so one must be LDS and do all the temple work to be exalted to the highest kingdom where God lives that others can’t visit. The place that you must have a passport drone Joseph Smith. Thanks 

One must be LDS or be part of this group

D&C 137:7-8, 10 "Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;  Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;..10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Edited July 27, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

Thank you for your honest answer, you are not in the same company of the LDS people I talk to including my beautiful wife and her very LDS family. You could say that I’m the elephant in the room when thay all get together 😂 

 

1 hour ago, Ranch2727 said:

Calm, I think we might be able to agree on this…. Most LDS do not know their church doctrine or study. At least in the Springville Provo area.

I think it is more that members quite often don't know how to teach it well to those who are not members.  There is a gift to be able to teach things simply and most do not have it.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Please repeat the question.  With multiple people responding to different parts of your conversation, they may see a connection in a comment to a question that you do not and assume that answers it for you or they may not be intending to deal with it.

As far as the response to mob’s “total lie” sentence…rather than say “someone”, please use the name of the poster you are referring to.  It is hard to understand what point you are making if we don’t know what post you are referring to.  
 

I believe Mfb (and hopefully he will clarify if I am wrong) was saying the claim all our prophets have said Mormons are saved and you (a nonmember) are not is the total lie.  The idea all Mormons and only Mormons are saved isn’t true in a couple of ways.  When Saints speak of salvation, we mean it two ways usually.  One is physical salvation and everyone ever born is saved from physical death through the Atonement and will be resurrected.  The second reference for salvation is being saved from spiritual death, and this may be saved in any kingdom, so all but a few who were born on earth are saved in this context.

But salvation is often used by Saints as a synonym for exaltation…where there is a full acceptance of the Atonement and we are fully one with the Father and the Son and therefore suffer no spiritual separation from them.  Some leaders have used spiritual death for spiritual separation, so that those who do not fully accept the Atonement with all their mind, heart, and soul are said to suffer some amount of spiritual death…but I think that is confusing since we never speak of being partially dead.  It is all or nothing.  But full spiritual death is Outer Darkness and very few mortals are heading there.

As to why Mfb said your comment about salvation was a total lie, no prophet has ever said all Saints are saved (if by that you mean headed for exaltation) and no nonmember is ever saved.  In fact, some have made a point to say many in the Church won’t be receiving exaltation while others outside the Church may eventually.  I will try and find quotes to back this up unless someone else posts them.

If you still believe that our prophets have said in essence “Mormons are saved and [you’re] not”, please provide the quotes that support this (the board rules requires a poster to document if asked any factual claim, you may be asked to do this as a challenge as I am doing here as I want to know why you have concluded our prophets say this when they haven’t or because others are interested in learning more or to help clarify what you mean if it is confusing.). In the future I may say “CFR”, which is short for “call for references”.  I like to understand how people got to their conclusions more than to debate them…I am not that interested in debating, but will speak up if someone has the wrong idea about our beliefs and teachings or practices or history, for that matter, because while I believe there are valid reasons for people not to have faith in the Church, I think it is a shame if they leave the Church or reject it because a false idea (a false idea that often comes from nonmembers misinterpreting our beliefs, but also from members who either are ignorant of details or confused by teachings themselves and haven’t studied them sufficiently well so they can clearly teach them or use poor choice of language to teach/share and instead of clarify, confuse).

On the board, with its mix of believers and nonbelievers, if you [speaking generically and not just to ranch] mean exaltation, it is least confusing to use that rather than salvation as context may not be clear which definition of salvation you are using.

EXACTLY!

I just happened on this, and yes thanks.  

You of course got it all right.

I only read posts that are addressed to me, don't have time for more and actually am TRYING to do less here and more on other venues, but I love you folks, and I am rather addicted!

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe Mfb (and hopefully he will clarify if I am wrong) was saying the claim all our prophets have said Mormons are saved and you (a nonmember) are not is the total lie

Yes exactly right as usual !!

ALL are saved, except perdition like what, 3 people?

 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

What I can’t understand is I asked a question but didn’t see any answer. Also when someone writes something that has a great deal of information in it and you say this is a total lie. Well not sure if you are saying my comments about your prophets or the stuff that faithful LDS people have said to me.  Hell my wife is a faithful LDS women and I go to church with her.  She told me if it came down to a serious situation she would like a LDS person to lay hands on her rather than me. It stung a bit but at least she was honest. Are you?  So answer my question. I go to a Bible church, I excepted God and his son Jesus, pay my tithe, baptized, and was born again. Can I go to the highest kingdom that the LDS believe they are all going.  Or do I need to be LDS?

As far as what your prophets said, do I really need to point them out, with only a little bit of effort you can find those things.  After all didn’t Joseph smith say he has done more than even Jesus because his people haven’t left him yet?

 

Sorry for misunderstanding!

It is a lie that you have to be LDS to be saved, even people who never heard of Jesus will be saved.

If someone was born in China in 2000 BC, never heard of Jesus, that person can become exalted!

Sorry I don't have time to go into it, but listen to Calm and others here and they will help you learn more.

My best to you!  

[Ranch2727]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry for misunderstanding!

It is a lie that you have to be LDS to be saved, even people who never heard of Jesus will be saved.

If someone was born in China in 2000 BC, never heard of Jesus, that person can become exalted!

Sorry I don't have time to go into it, but listen to Calm and others here and they will help you learn more.

My best to you!  

No need for an apology but thank you. As a former member but now as a born again I understand the LDS views on being saved. Maybe I’m not not asking the question in the right way. So let me try again.  Now that I’m no longer LDS, but I have have excepted Jesus as my savior.  Can I reach the highest kingdom that all the LDS people are with God? Not the lower kingdoms but the highest not being LDS and excepting Joseph Smith as a true prophet? The statement below is why I ask.

From Brigham Young:
Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them - something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them - namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are - I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation - the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world.  He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim - "Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.     – Journal of Discourses 7:289 (Oct 9, 1859)

the Bible says something way different.      

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.       
I do appreciate all of you helping  a new user. Thanks