The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[Ranch2727]

3 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Why do you never address any of the Bible verses and the questions I ask in my posts, but always respond to me by restating your beliefs or by trying to change to another topic?  You can believe whatever your choose to believe, I have no problem with that.  But you make accusations about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not being in harmony with the scripture, when about 80% of what you say contradicts scripture.  How do you account for the contradictions to scripture in your teachings?

Well first I don’t think that I bounce around, but you do so ok. Second I don’t think I contradict things at all. You throw out a scripture and I counter. But when I do I’m told either I don’t understand or that I didn’t read the entire thing.  I do read the entire thing, just like when I studied all of the Mormon books. I came to the conclusion that if I had to trust one book over the other I would take the Bible. As far as accusations I find all my stuff of of church websites so if you don’t agree take it up with them.  You also can believe how you want and I also respect that.  I can say that I have learned some from this group and although what the church says about the Bible I’m glad you use it.

[Ranch2727]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is not the message of the Restored Church.  That is your interpretation of it.  It is not surprising you left if that is how you understood it to be.  You aren’t the only one unfortunately.

Do you believe Christians should be eager to do God’s work?

How do you follow Jesus?  How do you worship him?

Oh with out a doubt we should be eager to do work for God and mankind. I just don’t think it’s required.

[Ranch2727]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is not the message of the Restored Church.  That is your interpretation of it.  It is not surprising you left if that is how you understood it to be.  You aren’t the only one unfortunately.

Do you believe Christians should be eager to do God’s work?

How do you follow Jesus?  How do you worship him?

I worship through love for him, I try my best to honor him, praying, putting others first with love. Thanking him and study.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

I worship through love for him, I try my best to honor him, praying, putting others first with love. Thanking him and study.

Quote

Again a gift isn’t a gift if you spend your life paying for it.  

Would you explain the difference between Grace as you understand it and what has been labeled “ cheap grace” by others, please?

Edited July 28, 2022 by Calm

[Ranch2727]

Gods life, power and righteousness given to us free. Grace gives us a new life which is not condemned by God and allows us the comfort that we will make mistakes but can ask forgiveness by repentance.  I haven’t really heard of cheap grace.  But if I were to guess, maybe someone who takes Gods grace but never really excepts God into their heart. I will ask you the same? Hope you have a blessed day.

[Calm]

Cheap or Free Grace…

”Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap?...

Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.”

Dietrich Bonhoffer

Also…

”The idea of carnal Christianity essentially teaches that as long as one makes a profession of faith in Christ, he or she is saved (Romans 10:9), even if there is no immediate obedience to the commands of Jesus and the apostles to live a life of holiness. It is the idea that we can have Jesus as Savior, but not necessarily as Lord. People who advocate for carnal Christianity, or “free grace” as it’s often called, do not deny the necessity of good works (i.e., holy living) for sanctification, but they distinguish the call for salvation from the call to sanctification (or discipleship).

There are many Scripture passages that free grace advocates use to support their position. It is not necessary to cite them all, but two of the most popular and forceful passages are John 3:16 and Romans 10:9.

• For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

• Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

Clearly, these passages, and others, teach that the one who believes in Jesus Christ “has eternal life” and “will be saved.” There is no disputing this. However, what people like John MacArthur and others were objecting to is not that salvation and eternal life are free gifts of God’s grace, but rather the teaching that the call to salvation does not also include a call to repentance and holy living. In other words, they were objecting that the doctrine of free grace was becoming a doctrine of cheap grace. What the proponents of Lordship Salvation assert is that salvation is a call to discipleship, that one cannot have Jesus as Savior without also acknowledging Him as Lord.”

https://www.gotquestions.org/cheap-grace.html
 

Is not repentance a work?  Is not holy living a work?

[Calm]

If a parent gives their teen a car as a gift, but the teen has not made an effort to prepare to receive the gift by learning how to drive, does the gift of the car benefit the teen?

[Teancum]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:57 AM, teddyaware said:

I’ve always found it fascinating how non-LDS Christians, who really have no excuse for not knowing better,  seem to take it for granted that apostles and prophets are not essential to the true Church of Christ; and they continue to believe this even though the Bible makes it crystal clear that the true Church of Christ cannot exist without living apostles and prophets presiding over the Church. I find it difficult to imagine how someone with critical thinking skills could read and digest the following powerful testimony of the Apostle Paul and not come to the realization that living apostles and prophets are absolutely necessary to the proper function of the true Church of Christ (I suppose that they miss the obvious meaning of scriptures like the following simply because, at least in their experience, the church’s they attend have no apostles and prophets).

 

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17I If.the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.(1 Corinthians 12)

I am always fascinated how myopic most Latter day Saints are about what other Christians believe and how the misconstrue much of it to score points with their arguments like you do above.  They don't bother to really ask no LDS Christians why they believe what they do on many doctrinal topics.

[Teancum]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:37 AM, Ranch2727 said:

So I don’t have to except LDS while I’m alive but I will when I’m dead. I’m not talking about Jesus I have excepted him. Do I have to except LDS at some point?

Yes you have to accept the LDS gospel and receive all the LDS ordinances.  Baptism, confirmation, priesthood if you are male and temple endowment and sealing of your marriage. If you do not have the opportunity to hear the message and accept it in this life you can be preached to in the spirit world and accept is then the ordinances can be performed to you in an LDS temple by proxy.  Without that no highest heaven for you.  And what is not clear is what does an opportunity to hear and accept in this life mean. If one knows about the LDS gospel and rejects it in this life will they have another chance in the spirit world before the resurrection and judgement?  Not sure. Lots f different opinions about that.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So I see you missed my — and the Apostle Paul’s — whole point! If you believe you can be a member of the body of Christ (His Church) in good standing while saying you have have no need to be connected to the most important members of that body  — totally putting aside Paul’s most solemn warning not to do so —  you are free to do as you wish. But do understand that in doing so you are preaching and adhering to another gospel than that preached by Paul.

This is rich and so fun to watch.. This bolded part is EXACTLY what other Christians say about the LDS gospel.  Religion is such a mess.  If there is a god behind this all he/it has done a sloppy job with it all.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Absolutely we listen to Paul.  We just need to read ALL of Paul and not just our favorite parts    Even the parts where Paul contradicts what you are saying, where he says apostles and prophets are to continue.

Sure.  🙄 And the parts LDS love to ignore.  Like the saved by grace not by works.  And Latter day Saints really don't like Romans much.  Not Paul's teachings about pre-destination.  Lots of Paul LDS love to ignore.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

It is the idea that we can have Jesus as Savior, but not necessarily as Lord.

4 hours ago, Calm said:

What the proponents of Lordship Salvation assert is that salvation is a call to discipleship, that one cannot have Jesus as Savior without also acknowledging Him as Lord.”

Oooh, I like that! 

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This is irich and so fun to watch.. This bolded part is EXACTLY what other Christians say about the LDS gospel.  Religion is such a mess.  If there is a god behind this all he/it has done a sloppy job with it all.

Don't know how true....food for thought. 

[Ranch2727]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes you have to accept the LDS gospel and receive all the LDS ordinances.  Baptism, confirmation, priesthood if you are male and temple endowment and sealing of your marriage. If you do not have the opportunity to hear the message and accept it in this life you can be preached to in the spirit world and accept is then the ordinances can be performed to you in an LDS temple by proxy.  Without that no highest heaven for you.  And what is not clear is what does an opportunity to hear and accept in this life mean. If one knows about the LDS gospel and rejects it in this life will they have another chance in the spirit world before the resurrection and judgement?  Not sure. Lots f different opinions about that.

As a believer that is crazy and sure sounds work based. All of that from one man’s mind, sure takes away what Jesus said in the Bible. In fact if that’s the case I’m not sure Jesus had to go to the cross.  You could believe in him but basically not really worship him on earth the do the work up there. But that’s just me. It sure did take a great deal of communication to get that answer, honestly it was a rhetorical question.   
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not ^bprocrastinate the day of your ^crepentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the ^dnight of ^edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

[pogi]

17 hours ago, Ranch2727 said:

Oh with out a doubt we should be eager to do work for God and mankind. I just don’t think it’s required.

Why "should" we where there is no obligation, duty, responsibility, or requirement of any eternal consequence?

The moral obligation you seem to impart on the word "should" becomes about as milk toast as the commandments (should/shalt/shalt not).  It is no longer a "command-ment" by a "Lord", but a mere suggestion of no eternal consequence.

When the Lord commands and we obey not, we do not accept Him as Lord over us.  To accept him as our Lord is salvation - such requires obedience.   

[pogi]

Quote

I worship through love for him

Do you consider love for God a requirement?

Edited July 28, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Don't know how true....food for thought. 

That is the beauty of the restored gospel which teaches us of "other sheep" in other folds.  It speaks of God's involvement with all people in all lands and isles of the sea who have heard his word and write it.  We have one of these records - the Book of Mormon.  We are told there are other sacred writings from other folds that will be brought to light too.   Now that really does seem legit. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by pogi

[Teancum]

51 minutes ago, Ranch2727 said:

As a believer that is crazy and sure sounds work based. All of that from one man’s mind, sure takes away what Jesus said in the Bible. In fact if that’s the case I’m not sure Jesus had to go to the cross.  You could believe in him but basically not really worship him on earth the do the work up there. But that’s just me. It sure did take a great deal of communication to get that answer, honestly it was a rhetorical question.   
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not ^bprocrastinate the day of your ^crepentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the ^dnight of ^edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

Just an FYI I don't believe the LDS dogma on this.  But I don't believe yours either. I just wanted to give you a straight answer. I am a disaffected Latter day Saint who is skeptical of all religious claims these days.

[Ranch2727]

32 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Just an FYI I don't believe the LDS dogma on this.  But I don't believe yours either. I just wanted to give you a straight answer. I am a disaffected Latter day Saint who is skeptical of all religious claims these days.

Yeah I get that

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

And what is not clear is what does an opportunity to hear and accept in this life mean

B.I.N.G.O. I have thought on this for years. It's really worthy of an entirely new thread. ; )

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

If there is a god behind this all he/it has done a sloppy job with it all.

If indeed it is sloppy, He has allowed us to make it that way. I agree it's sloppy. ; )

Edited July 28, 2022 by Vanguard

[Ranch2727]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Do you consider love for God a requirement?

Love and worship in spirit 

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That is the beauty of the restored gospel which teaches us of "other sheep" in other folds.  It speaks of God's involvement with all people in all lands and isles of the sea who have heard his word and write it.  We have one of these records - the Book of Mormon.  We are told there are other sacred writings from other folds that will be brought to light too.   Now that really does seem legit. 

Question so is the BOM part of the restoration??

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

 And the parts LDS love to ignore.  Like the saved by grace not by works. 

Come on, Teancum, you know better than that surely. Our focus is faith without works is dead. We don’t believe works alone save us. Remember the CS Lewis’ quote many of us appeal to of grace and works being the two blades of a scissor?  
 

https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/reflections-april-2007/

“Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come…

The Bible really seems to clinch the matter when it puts the two things together into one amazing sentence. The first half is, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”—which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on, “For it is God who worketh in you”—which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid that is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into water-tight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, “He did this bit and I did that.” But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside you as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith tell you to do good actions.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2005/03/tough-topics-are-you-saved-by-grace-or-works?lang=eng

https://whytheldschurchistrue.com/grace-salvation-works-all-we-can-do/
 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/the-theology-of-c-s-lewis-a-latter-day-saint-perspective/
 

“From my reading of Lewis, I conclude that there was no question in his mind that salvation was in Christ alone and that the renovation of men and women’s souls was the work of a God. At the same time, he was perfectly clear about the fact that persons who chose to come unto Christ were expected to be more than grateful and passive observers of the changes taking place within them. “We profanely assume that divine and human action exclude one another like the actions of two fellow-creatures so that ‘God did this’ and ‘I did this’ cannot both be true of the same act except in the sense that each contributed a share.” He continued: “In the end we must admit a two-way traffic at the junction.…We have nothing that we have not received; but part of what we have received is the power of being something more than receptacles.”³² As Lewis stated elsewhere, “Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.…You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into water-tight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together.”³³

Latter-day Saints have often been critical of those who stress salvation by grace alone, while we have often been criticized for a type of works-righteousness because we give work any significance at all. For us the gospel is, in fact, a gospel covenant. The Lord agrees to do for us what we could never do for ourselves—to forgive our sins, to lift our burdens, to renew our souls and re-create our nature, to raise us from the dead and qualify us for glory hereafter. Whereupon, we strive to do what we can do: have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized, love and serve one another, and do all in our power to put off the natural man and deny ourselves of ungodliness. In short, we believe that more is required of men and women than a verbal expression of faith in the Lord, more than a confession with the lips that we have received Christ into our hearts. Without question, the power to save us, to change us, to renew our souls, is in Christ. True faith, however, always manifests itself in faithfulness. Thus, the real question is not whether one is saved by grace or by works but rather, In whom do we trust? On whom do we rely? (See 1 Ne. 10:6; 2 Ne. 2:8; 31:19; Mor. 6:4.)

Mormons feel that few things would be more sinister than encouraging lip service to God while discouraging obedience and faithful discipleship. On the other hand, surely nothing could be more offensive to God than a smug self-assurance that comes from trusting in one’s own works or relying upon one’s own strength. What is perhaps the most well known passage in LDS literature on this delicate matter is found in the Book of Mormon: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23; see also 10:24; Alma 24:10–11). That is, above and beyond all we can do, we are saved by the grace of Christ; salvation is still the greatest of all the gifts of God (D&C 6:13; 14:7). Further, the more we learn to trust the Lord and rely on his merits and mercy, the less anxious we become about life here and hereafter. “Thus, if you have really handed yourself over to Him,” Lewis wisely remarked, “it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way.”^34”

[Calm]

“C. S. Lewis wrote that this dispute "does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary" (p. 129). And in one way or another almost all Christian denominations ultimately accept the need for both grace and works, but the differences in meaning and emphasis among the various doctrinal traditions remain substantial.

LDS doctrine contains an affirmative sense of interaction between grace and works that is unique not only as to these concepts but also reflects the uniqueness of the restored gospel's view of man's nature, the Fall of Adam, the Atonement, and the process of salvation. At the same time, the LDS view contains features that are similar to basic elements of some other traditions. For example, the LDS insistence that such works as ordinances be performed with proper priesthood authority resembles the Catholic teaching that its sacraments are the requisite channels of grace. Also the LDS emphasis on the indispensability of personal faith and repentance in a direct relationship with God echoes traditional Protestant teachings. The LDS position "is not a convenient eclecticism, but a repossession [through the Restoration] of a New Testament understanding that reconciles Paul and James" (Madsen, p. 175).

The Church's emphasis on personal responsibility and the need for self-disciplined obedience may seem to de-emphasize the role of Christ's grace; however, for Latter-day Saints, obedience is but one blade of the scissors. All of LDS theology also reflects the major premise of the Book of Mormon that without grace there is no salvation: "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Ne. 25:23). The source of this grace is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ: "Mercy cometh because of the Atonement" (Alma 42:23).”

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Grace

Edited July 28, 2022 by Calm