The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Exactly. Begotten = of one substance, not sexually reproduced.

Ok, as long as you define it that way, that is what you believe it means.  Makes as much sense as anything else in this world!

And never the Twain shall meet!

-uh I think that it means we define things differently!  SURPRISE!!

Love y'all!

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

You keep posing these questions as a "gotcha, ya dumb Christians never thought about this, didya!" when in fact it is not a gotcha at all. Of course Jesus was fully human in all aspects of it (do you sit around contemplating whether his farts stank?). Of course he suffered sexual temptation, as he suffered ALL temptation (Hebrews 4:15). This is not troubling at all (and I'm not sure why you think it would be).

ETA: in fact, not only is it not troubling, it is actually a wonderful thing that Christ underwent sexual temptation. When I have sexual temptation, I know He understands and can fully help as he fully experienced it. Sexual temptation is a major part of being human. There would be a gaping hole in the Incarnation and Atonement if for some reason He chose to skip over it. So again, why do you think we believe that?

And here's where you misunderstand the Trinity. God the Father is NOT God the Son. Jesus, being 100% human and 100% God, does not mean that God the Father has a body (He does not). Jesus having reproductive organs as a human does not mean God the Father has a body.

Obviously you think Trinitarianism is wrong, and it is fine that you think so, but you are trying to argue from the point-of-view of Trinitarian Christianity that it isn't "so hard to believe that God ... could be the very literal Father." Since you misunderstand the Trinity, your argument doesn't work.

This is not the definition we use when we say "begotten."

"Filium Dei unigenitum,  ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula" = "the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages"

Notice "omnia saecula" or "before all ages" or "eternally" or "forever and ever" etc.

Christ is begotten and born of the Father eternally. It has always happened and will always happen.

Again, you can disagree with this, of course, but we are using our terms in an internally consistent way.

3DOP wasn't saying it was "titillating." He was being sarcastic and pointing out that the fact you keep bringing it up probably means that you believe it is titillating to us. It is not titillating to us.

Yes.

Catholics do not believe that all are called to be parents.

Jesse,

Thank you very much for saving me a much lengthier post. I am still amazed at how anybody could think we are so ignorant and backwards.

12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by 3DOP

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

So why did you give teddyaware a heart reaction, as he is the one who keeps pushing the discussion of Christ's reproductive organs and God the Father implanting sperm into Mary?

Frankly I had mixed emotions on that one.  But upon further analysis there was nothing wrong with it in context of what was being said, and I found this somewhat helpful, bringing up other reproductive concepts.

@teddyaware said:

"Begotten: past participle of beget. Beget: “to produce offspring by sexual reproduction.” In this regard, sexual reproduction does not necessarily require intercourse as it can be accomplished by implantation.

I find it interesting that you think of my approach to this sacred subject as being “titillating,” when it’s God himself who created sexual procreation, and it is he who commands all of his children, where possible and lawful, to engage in the holy process of bringing sacred human life into the world through sexual reproduction."

Edited June 2, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

45 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Jesse,

Thank you very much for saving me a much lengthier post. I am still amazed at how anybody could think we are so ignorant and backwards.

I will add here that I hope that many LDS would be at least uncomfortable with God taking liberties with the betrothed woman of another man by a method that would defeat her virginity. Secondly, I hope many LDS would be further uncomfortable if God fertilized Mary by the other method teddy mentions in a way that would preserve her virginity. Besides the unwholesome thought of what it would require God to do, it would cheapen the expectations that a virgin will conceive by some extraordinary means. The fulfillment of the prophecy of a virgin birth under such circumstances, would seem like little more than a cheap trick.   

You do not understand righteous polygamy, and are not combining it with "other modes" of reproduction.

Catholics actually defend such a miraculous possibility and we do not reject it

It's none of our business.

I'm outa this one.

Shower time.

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You do not understand righteous polygamy, and not combing it with "other modes" of reproduction.

It's none of our business 

But thanks for giving us the benefit of the doubt!

I'm outa this one.

Shower time.

 

The prophet Nathan scolded King David and affirmed that God gave him multiple wives:

"And Nathan said to David: Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord the God of Israel: I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee from the hand of Saul, And gave thee thy master's house and thy master's wives into thy bosom..." [2K 12:7, 8]

You quote me so people will be able to see what I said. But I am deleting my latest post. I don't want to think about it and I don't wish to invite further discussion. I am sorry. I got lured in by my own self-pride. I was outraged that anyone could imagine that lots of non-LDS teach that our Lord was a defective human being, or that we would be disturbed if He were like us in ALL things, except sin. I'm outa this one too. See you around. 🤐   

 

 

[3DOP]

12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the fact that I believe It’s likely a great many Christians have never even considered the possibility that God could be a sexual being, would you find it disturbing to learn that among the many temptations the man Jesus Christ wrestled with and conquered were the urges of his fully human body’s sexual impulses? Or do you believe Christ was so “above it all,” even though he was fully human, that he never experienced the sexual impulses of his human body? And if Christ was fully human, even though he was simultaneously fully God, would you find it troubling to learn that Christ had ‘seed’ within his body that carried his own fully human DNA?

I ask these questions because at the center of this thread’s debate lies the question of whether or not God the Father could be the literal Father of Jesus Christ after the manner of the flesh? And to me it follows that if God, in the person of Jesus Christ, was/is a sexual being with seed carrying his own unique DNA, then  it shouldn’t be so hard to believe that God, in the person of the Father, could be the very literal Father of his Only Begotten Son.

Begotten: past participle of beget. Beget: “to produce offspring by sexual reproduction.” In this regard, sexual reproduction does not necessarily require intercourse as it can be accomplished by implantation.

I find it interesting that you think of my approach to this sacred subject as being “titillating,” when it’s God himself who created sexual procreation, and it is he who commands all of his children, where possible and lawful, to engage in the holy process of bringing sacred human life into the world through sexual reproduction.

I am sorry that I was offended at you. I have removed the down vote on your post. 

God bless, 

Rory

 

[theplains]

On 5/30/2022 at 4:12 PM, InCognitus said:

No, the identity of "The God" is God the Father.  He is the one God "above all" (Eph 4:6, see also Abraham 3:19).  

Does that mean Jesus and the Holy Ghost are gods in LDS theology?

[theplains]

On 5/30/2022 at 3:34 PM, teddyaware said:

You’re not answering my specific questions. Here they are: 1] Do you believe the man Jesus Christ, during the time of his pre-resurrection sojourn on earth, had a functioning male sexual reproductive system? 2] And if you believe he did, do you also believe he was raised from the dead with an anatomically correct male human body? 3] And if you do believe the latter, does it bother you to know the supposedly “immaterial” God whom you worship has male sex organs? 

1] Yes
2] I would suppose so since there is no indication something vanished from his resurrected body.
3] I don't believe God the Father is an exalted man.  I believe being created in the image of God
(like Adam and Eve were) does not mean having a head, two arms, legs, and sexual organs (for
monkeys and apes were created with them too).

Maybe a question not pondered is how Heavenly Father and Mother (in LDS theology) procreated
to have spirit children were it not for the use of their 'supposed' sex organs?  If the former is
true, I would see nothing wrong with heavenly parents reproducing the same way they designed
for earthly parents.

Edited June 8, 2022 by theplains

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

1] Yes
2] I would suppose so since there is no indication something vanished from his resurrected body.
3] I don't believe God the Father is an exalted man.  I believe being created in the image of God
(like Adam and Eve were) does not mean having a head, two arms, legs, and sexual organs (for
monkeys and apes were created with them too).

Maybe a question not pondered is how Heavenly Father and Mother (in LDS theology) procreated
to have spirit children were it not for the use of their 'supposed' sex organs?  If the former is
true, I would see nothing wrong with heavenly parents reproducing the same way they designed
for earthly parents.

I find it interesting that while you readily admit the one God whom you worship has sex organs, you simultaneously seem to make light of the idea that the one God whom you worship could possibly have sex organs. Meanwhile the Savior testified that he did none other things than what he’d seen the Father do before he did them. Could it be that Christ took upon himself a human body with a male reproductive system because he was following the example of his Father who did the same things before he did them?

 In light of fact that Christ testified he does none other things than what he’d seen the  Father do, do you not find it curious that he repeatedly and emphatically proclaims that the Father of his human body to be male personage? If Christ cannot lie, why does he repeatedly emphasize the fact that the Sire of his human body is a Father and not a mother? Or is the God whom you worship simultaneously both a Father and a mother, even though Mary was the Lord’s mother? And if Christ is “in the express (exact) image of the Father’s person,” does it not follow that God the Father is a male personage? Or do the LBGTQIA advocates end up being right in the end, with God turning out to be a sexless, genderless being, even though his (sic) only begotten Son, whom we’re told is exactly like the Father in every way, will forever be a exalted human personage with male sexual organs?

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, theplains said:

Does that mean Jesus and the Holy Ghost are gods in LDS theology?

I know you already know that Jesus is called God in LDS theology, as both the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants make this abundantly clear (more clear than it does in the Bible, i.e Title Page of the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 26:12, 3 Nephi 11:14, D&C 18:33, D&C 35:1-2, D&C 36:1, for example).   And the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are "one God" in unity of will and purpose in the Godhead (3 Nephi 11:36, D&C 20:28).

But Jesus is subject to God the Father, and the Bible makes it abundantly clear that God the Father is the very God and Father of Jesus Christ (John 20:17, Rom 15:6, 1 Cor 11:3,  2 Cor 11:31, Eph 1:3, Eph 1:17; Heb 1:8-9, 1 Pet 1:3, Rev 3:12), and Jesus is even said to be eternally subject to the Father (1 Cor 15:28).  So obviously Jesus can't be the "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" as described in Eph 4:6, because Jesus is eternally subject to the Father.  Jesus is our mediator, and he fully represents God the Father to us.  

[theplains]

On 6/8/2022 at 11:43 AM, teddyaware said:

Meanwhile the Savior testified that he did none other things than what he’d seen the Father do before he did them.

Did Jesus mimic everything Heavenly Father had done before him?

Joseph Smith and other church leaders taught he (Heavenly Father of our Earth) was once a man
on another planet who became a God.  When he was only a man on this other planet, did he marry
and have children, provide an atonement, or did he have an atonement provided for him and his wife
so they could become Gods?

[theplains]

On 6/8/2022 at 10:13 PM, InCognitus said:

I know you already know that Jesus is called God in LDS theology, as both the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants make this abundantly clear (more clear than it does in the Bible, i.e Title Page of the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 26:12, 3 Nephi 11:14, D&C 18:33, D&C 35:1-2, D&C 36:1, for example).   And the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are "one God" in unity of will and purpose in the Godhead (3 Nephi 11:36, D&C 20:28).

The title page refers to Jesus as the Eternal God.  Do you interpret that to mean Jesus has
always been God or that he is the Eternal God only from the time he became a God like the
LDS Church teaches?

Regarding D&C 20:28 (Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal,
without end. Amen), I found these other teachings:

"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! 
I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three!... He would be a wonderfully
big God - he would be a giant or a monster" (Joseph Smith - History of the Church, volume 6).

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct
personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit:
and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of Presidents
of the Church - Joseph Smith, 2008).

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Did Jesus mimic everything Heavenly Father had done before him?

Joseph Smith and other church leaders taught he (Heavenly Father of our Earth) was once a man
on another planet who became a God.  When he was only a man on this other planet, did he marry
and have children, provide an atonement, or did he have an atonement provided for him and his wife
so they could become Gods?

Although these points are somewhat shrouded in mystery, one can logically conclude that since our Heavenly Father was once a man on another planet, just as his Son Jesus Christ was a man on this planet, that the infinite and eternal atonement (an everlasting sacrificial principle of light and life that exists outside of the bounds of time) made it possible for him to become perfect, just as the man Jesus Christ became perfect through the power of his Father and thus became the author and finisher of our salvation on this earth (we don’t think it’s strange or odd that God would live on a planet since, based on our own knowledge and experience, this appears to be exactly how he goes about doing his work.

As far as the Father himself experiencing the agony of the atoning sacrifice himself is concerned? Since God the Father perfectly understands all things — and this most especially includes the suffering required to make an atoning sacrifice —  his omniscience in all things means that, in some way or manner, he perfectly comprehends, to the point of it being experiential, the suffering endured when making an atoning sacrifice. So yes, Christ was willing to make the atoning sacrifice because the Father, who knows all things, had experienced such suffering before he did (in the religion of the Latter-Day Saints, we believe God gets down in the ‘trenches’ with us).

Edited June 17, 2022 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

The title page refers to Jesus as the Eternal God.  Do you interpret that to mean Jesus has
always been God or that he is the Eternal God only from the time he became a God like the
LDS Church teaches?

I interpret that to mean exactly what it says, that Jesus is "Eternal" and Jesus is "God".  I don't think you need to read anything else into that.  Jesus is eternal, and Jesus is God.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Regarding D&C 20:28 (Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal,
without end. Amen), I found these other teachings:

"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only one God! 
I say that is a strange God anyhow - three in one, and one in three!... He would be a wonderfully
big God - he would be a giant or a monster" (Joseph Smith - History of the Church, volume 6).

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct
personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit:
and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of Presidents
of the Church - Joseph Smith, 2008).

Exactly right.  And just like the Bible teaches too, three separate and distinct personages, each a distinct being and distinct God, but one in unity of will and purpose.  They are "one God" in unity, but not "one Being" like some other churches teach.  Remember from the last post?  God the Father is the God of Jesus Christ.   In Revelation 3:12, the resurrected Jesus refers to God the Father as "my God" four separate times in that verse.  So God has a God.  That's impossible if they are one being.

And I found these other teachings:

John 17:11 "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee.  Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are".

John 17:20-23; "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.  And the GLORY which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

John 14:20  "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you".
 

[theplains]

On 6/17/2022 at 3:22 PM, InCognitus said:

I interpret that to mean exactly what it says, that Jesus is "Eternal" and Jesus is "God".  I don't think you need to read anything else into that.  Jesus is eternal, and Jesus is God.

Do you believe Jesus ever existed as a being who was not God?

[theplains]

On 6/17/2022 at 10:55 AM, teddyaware said:

Although these points are somewhat shrouded in mystery, one can logically conclude that since our Heavenly Father was once a man on another planet, just as his Son Jesus Christ was a man on this planet, that the infinite and eternal atonement (an everlasting sacrificial principle of light and life that exists outside of the bounds of time) made it possible for him to become perfect, just as the man Jesus Christ became perfect through the power of his Father and thus became the author and finisher of our salvation on this earth (we don’t think it’s strange or odd that God would live on a planet since, based on our own knowledge and experience, this appears to be exactly how he goes about doing his work.

As far as the Father himself experiencing the agony of the atoning sacrifice himself is concerned? Since God the Father perfectly understands all things — and this most especially includes the suffering required to make an atoning sacrifice —  his omniscience in all things means that, in some way or manner, he perfectly comprehends, to the point of it being experiential, the suffering endured when making an atoning sacrifice. So yes, Christ was willing to make the atoning sacrifice because the Father, who knows all things, had experienced such suffering before he did (in the religion of the Latter-Day Saints, we believe God gets down in the ‘trenches’ with us).

Regarding paragraph 1, Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was a man who became a God. Do you believe
this is also true of Jesus or do you believe another church teaching that Jesus became a God in the pre-mortal
spirit existence?

Regarding paragraph 2, does this mean Jesus did what he saw the Father do and provide the Atonement for
our Earth as Heavenly Father provided an Atonement for those on his earth?   Or did Heavenly Father need
someone else to provide the Atonement for him?

 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Regarding paragraph 1, Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was a man who became a God. Do you believe
this is also true of Jesus or do you believe another church teaching that Jesus became a God in the pre-mortal
spirit existence?

Regarding paragraph 2, does this mean Jesus did what he saw the Father do and provide the Atonement for
our Earth as Heavenly Father provided an Atonement for those on his earth?   Or did Heavenly Father need
someone else to provide the Atonement for him?

 

According to Doctrine and Covenants 93, all the children of God, not just Christ, had a divine origin prior to being born as the spirit sons and daughters of God.

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; Doctrine and Covenants 93)

The above verse indicates that even before our pre-mortal spirit birth we existed from all eternity as a living component of the uncreated Spirit of truth that fills eternity and the immensity of the sidereal universe.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Verse 29 restates verse 23, but in this case it is revealed we were the uncreated “light of truth”(interchangeable with the expression’Spirit of truth’)  prior to being born as spirit sons and daughters unto God.

As far as God the Father’s personal experience with the suffering required in order to make an effectual infinite and eternal atoning sacrifice is concerned, I believe he was intimately acquainted with that suffering before Christ experienced it in the flesh because God, as an omniscient being, perfectly knows and fully comprehends all things, most especially what’s entailed in making an atoning sacrifice. Therefore Christ was ultimately willing to suffer infinitely and eternally for our sins because he understood that his Father experienced precisely the same suffering he was being commanded to endure. In the religion of the Latter-Day Saints, God doesn’t just talk the talk but he sets the example by perfectly walking the walk as well, in this case by traversing through the fiery darkness of hell.

Edited June 28, 2022 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

On 6/28/2022 at 9:19 AM, theplains said:

Do you believe Jesus ever existed as a being who was not God?

Jesus is the same "being" he has always been.   But what would make him not God in your view? 

What does it mean to be "God"?

Does it mean to be eternal?   Jesus is eternal, he has always existed.  

Does it mean to have glory?   Jesus tells us in John 17:5 and John 17:22, that the glory he had with the Father in the beginning was "given" him of the Father.  But Jesus also gave the same glory that he received from the Father to his disciples.

Does it mean to be the creator?  The Bible tells us that Jesus created all things under the supervision of the Father (Hebrews 1:1-2).  Do you believe Jesus created anything else before he created this creation, or was this creation the first time he attempted to create anything?  Did Jesus become a creator God when he began creating this earth?

Does it mean having all power?   In Matthew 28:18, Jesus says, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."   This power was given to Jesus by the Father.  Did he become God when God the Father gave him that power?  Or was he God prior to having "all power"?  Can a being be God if he doesn't have "all power"?

Since Jesus had some of these attributes "given" to him from the Father, can it possibly mean that Jesus was not always God before he received those things from the Father?

[theplains]

On 7/2/2022 at 12:28 AM, InCognitus said:

Jesus is the same "being" he has always been.   But what would make him not God in your view? 

What does it mean to be "God"?

Does it mean to be eternal?   Jesus is eternal, he has always existed.  

Does it mean to have glory?   Jesus tells us in John 17:5 and John 17:22, that the glory he had with the Father in the beginning was "given" him of the Father.  But Jesus also gave the same glory that he received from the Father to his disciples.

Does it mean to be the creator?  The Bible tells us that Jesus created all things under the supervision of the Father (Hebrews 1:1-2).  Do you believe Jesus created anything else before he created this creation, or was this creation the first time he attempted to create anything?  Did Jesus become a creator God when he began creating this earth?

Does it mean having all power?   In Matthew 28:18, Jesus says, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."   This power was given to Jesus by the Father.  Did he become God when God the Father gave him that power?  Or was he God prior to having "all power"?  Can a being be God if he doesn't have "all power"?

Since Jesus had some of these attributes "given" to him from the Father, can it possibly mean that Jesus was not always God before he received those things from the Father?

The Book of Mormon, in the introduction page, says Jesus is the Eternal God. Do you believe he
has always existed as God?

I found these teachings of the church which indicate Jesus became a God. This would indicate
he is not eternally God (from everlasting to everlasting):

"By obedience and devotion to the truth he (Jesus) attained that pinnacle of intelligence 
which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state" 
(Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, 2004, page 10, chapter 4). 
4, online).

"Christ, who is the firstborn in the Spirit of the children of God, was elevated to Godhood, 
and in the vision Abraham saw he describes him as being like unto God" (LDS President 
Joseph Fielding Smith, The Progress of Man, chapter 6, page 74).

"Jesus was appointed to Godhood. In the Meridian of Time Christ came into the world, in 
fulfillment of the promise and appointment (LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith, The 
Progress of Man, chapter 43, pages 511-512). 

God the Father is the ultimate repository of all intelligence, "or, in other words, light 
and truth" (D&C 93:36); Jesus Christ, the Firstborn, who became a god in the premortal 
existence, the Father's steward over his creations, is the one source of light for us as 
individuals; and the Holy Ghost is the "gatekeeper," as it were, the dispenser of light 
to us according to worthiness and ability to receive it (Ensign, December 1975, "How to 
Receive Spiritual Gifts").

When Jesus (God) became man, he set aside some of his God attributes. But did he have
all power and glory before becoming a man?  I would say "yes."

[theplains]

On 6/28/2022 at 12:35 PM, teddyaware said:

According to Doctrine and Covenants 93, all the children of God, not just Christ, had a divine origin prior to being born as the spirit sons and daughters of God.

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth; Doctrine and Covenants 93)

The above verse indicates that even before our pre-mortal spirit birth we existed from all eternity as a living component of the uncreated Spirit of truth that fills eternity and the immensity of the sidereal universe.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Verse 29 restates verse 23, but in this case it is revealed we were the uncreated “light of truth”(interchangeable with the expression’Spirit of truth’)  prior to being born as spirit sons and daughters unto God.

I'm familiar with those verses.

Do you believe Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God (who earlier had a divine origin as a
spirit intelligence, then a spirit birth to his parents - aka, Jesus' grandparents) or do you believe Heavenly
Father has always been God? 

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I'm familiar with those verses.

Do you believe Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God (who earlier had a divine origin as a
spirit intelligence, then a spirit birth to his parents - aka, Jesus' grandparents) or do you believe Heavenly
Father has always been God? 

Heavenly Father has always been a God in the sense that he has always belonged to the race of the Gods. And as Jesus amply demonstrates, one can belong to the race of the God’s but still pass through a phase of existence where one’s divine heritage and Godhood are not readily apparent, such as the new growing phase of existence that the Lord passed through when he was a living, spiritually maturing human being on earth.

It’s difficult for those who presently live in a fallen world that’s bound by time to comprehend the timelessness realm of eternity, where there has always been a God ruling in perfect love and wisdom over all things. Nevertheless, in 2 Nephi 2 the prophet Lehi testifies that there has always been an existence filled with things to act and to be acted upon that has always been ruled over by an infinite and eternal God. There never was a time when there was no God; and if, theoretically speaking, if there was a time when there was no God all that there could be forevermore is the nothingness of nonexistence. Without God there is no existence.

I believe the easiest way to wrap one’s mind around Jesus’ pre-mortal spirit birth as the beginning of all the creations of God is to observe what happened to him in mortality. It’s important to realize that even though he was the divine preexistent Jehovah prior to being embodied on earth, nevertheless he began his earthly existence as a human child who grew in awareness and matured in stature before God very much like any other human being born on this earth. And even though it was incumbent upon him to grow spiritually until he eventually became the perfected author of salvation on earth, that doesn’t negate the fact that he was the mighty, perfect spirit known as Jehovah before being born as a helpless, utterly dependent baby on earth.

One of the most profound things to understand about being human — and Jesus was most certainly human — is that it’s an incorrect perception to look upon any man and presume you’re only looking at one being. In reality, although it isn’t readily apparent, at any given moment in time there a millions of other genetic human lives existing within a man’s body. Jesus, being a man, also had millions of these living seeds of humanity existing within his body. It is through these sacred seeds that the members of the race of the Gods are enabled to enter a new, dynamic  phase of embodied existence here on earth. In essence, the plan of salvation is all about divine parents eternally engaged in recreating living spiritual and biological extensions of their own divine perfection.

Edited July 9, 2022 by teddyaware

[Calm]

That is quite profound and beautifully expressed, teddy.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Heavenly Father has always been a God in the sense that he has always belonged to the race of the Gods. And as Jesus amply demonstrates, one can belong to the race of the God’s but still pass through a phase of existence where one’s divine heritage and Godhood are not readily apparent, such as the new growing phase of existence that the Lord passed through when he was a living, spiritually maturing human being on earth.

It’s difficult for those who presently live in a fallen world that’s bound by time to comprehend the timelessness realm of eternity, where there has always been a God ruling in perfect love and wisdom over all things. Nevertheless, in 2 Nephi 2 the prophet Lehi testifies that there has always been an existence filled with things to act and to be acted upon that has always been ruled over by an infinite and eternal God. There never was a time when there was no God; and if, theoretically speaking, if there was a time when there was no God all that there could be forevermore is the nothingness of nonexistence. Without God there is no existence.

I believe the easiest way to wrap one’s mind around Jesus’ pre-mortal spirit birth as the beginning of all the creations of God is to observe what happened to him in mortality. It’s important to realize that even though he was the divine preexistent Jehovah prior to being embodied on earth, nevertheless he began his earthly existence as a human child who grew in awareness and matured in stature before God very much like any other human being born on this earth. And even though it was incumbent upon him to grow spiritually until he eventually became the perfected author of salvation on earth, that doesn’t negate the fact that he was the mighty, perfect spirit known as Jehovah before being born as a helpless, utterly dependent baby on earth.

One of the most profound things to understand about being human — and Jesus was most certainly human — is that it’s an incorrect perception to look upon any man and presume you’re only looking at one being. In reality, although it isn’t readily apparent, at any given moment in time there a millions of other genetic human lives existing within a man’s body. Jesus, being a man, also had millions of these living seeds of humanity existing within his body. It is through these sacred seeds that the members of the race of the Gods are enabled to enter a new, dynamic  phase of embodied existence here on earth. In essence, the plan of salvation is all about divine parents eternally engaged in recreating living spiritual and biological extensions of their own divine perfection.

The word "God" can also be seen as a Role. If the USA had an infinitely long past, one might say that we have had The President and Congress forever.

[teddyaware]

55 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The word "God" can also be seen as a Role. If the USA had an infinitely long past, one might say that we have had The President and Congress forever.

I understand what you mean. But while what you say is true insofar as the various roles of earthly power and authority that humans can hold, even so it seems quite a stretch to say that the beings of infinite and eternal perfection who rule and in reign in heaven are merely playing a role, like an actor playing the role of Hamlet. This is why in LDS doctrine we refer to this particular aspect of priesthood empowerment as the “divine investiture of authority” rather than merely asserting that they are playing a role.’ When one is invested by God with such an immense measure of power and authority, even to the point of being able to speak in the first person as if he is God, that individual must be like unto God in all the attributes holiness, and not just be one who’s aspiring to possesses these great spiritual gifts.

Edited July 9, 2022 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I understand what you mean. But while what you say is true insofar as the various roles of earthly power and authority that humans can hold, even so it seems quite a stretch to say that the beings of infinite and eternal perfection who rule and in reign in heaven are merely playing a role, like an actor playing the role of Hamlet. This is why in LDS doctrine we refer to this particular aspect of priesthood empowerment as the “divine investiture of authority” rather than merely asserting that they are playing a role.’ When one is invested by God with such an immense measure of power and authority, even to the point of being able to speak in the first person as if he is God, that individual must be like unto God in all the attributes holiness, and not just be one who’s aspiring to possesses these great spiritual gifts.

Yes I agree of course.

The implications of my point could explain  how "God" is both eternal AND progessing AND that the three persons of the Godhead are all "God" and how there was never a beginning or will be an end to the "Generations of Gods".

So the same human being can both be like us, and become as Father is, as he matures and progresses while always being the same "person".

So the same being can be a pre existing spirit AND a human as we are, be  human parent, advance to exaltation and become as Father is now while remaining the same person/being making ALL of us Eternally God.

So yes, in one sense we are monotheists AND polytheistic depending on how we want to see it.

YOU and all of us are eternally God if we make it that far

Like the hymn "Oh My Father" there is no end