The Other Covid Thread

[Calm]

Honestly I am bewildered why there are debates going on about the harm lockdowns cause when we have people refusing to mask decently or to social distance and to take the damn vaccine.  Cart before the horse.

Not attacking anyone here because it is the community attitudes that are driving people’s priorities and making it all more complicated and costly than it need be imo. The unvaccinated are not just hurting themselves when they take up hospital beds and leave unpaid medical bills, leave kids who have to be found homes for or who now have a single parent which means much more likely to living at poverty level in their future, have businesses that struggle to replace them while sick wondering if they will be back, disrupt communities by driving up rates so partial lockdowns try to control the damage, etc. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Calm

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Ok.  So Florida has had more deaths per million than California.  Fair enough.  But why is this the case?  Is it because California has strict lockdown measures and mask mandates.  Or is it because Florida has more non-vaccinated people?  
If it’s the latter, then it’s the fault of those not getting the vaccine.  And that’s their choice that they freely made.

Now let’s say lockdowns really do work. Maybe they do. Is it worth the cost?  Is the harm we’re causing our children, our society, and the economy really worth it?   

Florida is also a lot older. 

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Florida is also a lot older. 

Over 65 is 15% in CA and 20% in FL

Poverty level incomes and undocumented immigrant percentage is higher in California though.

And Florida is 25% minority while California is 40%.

Obesity….30% CA, 30% in FL

Smoking …15% in adults in FL, 11% in CA.

Is being male still a factor or was that found to be tied to smoking in China…can’t remember that far back.

added:  looks like it held…https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2021/10/19/at-least-65000-more-men-than-women-have-died-from-covid-19-in-the-us/

Males in CA are almost 50%, FL almost 49%.

No doubt there is some statistical tool that could take all the relevant factors into account and properly rate the importance of each….but kind of doubt they will be that accurate for a couple of more years until the effects of Covid have been dissected and redissected for years.  I suspect there will be numerous dissertations produced on various effects, including closed schools on children.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Calm

[BRMC]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Honestly I am bewildered why there are debates going on about the harm lockdowns cause when we have people refusing to mask decently or to social distance and to take the damn vaccine.  Cart before the horse.

Not attacking anyone here because it is the community attitudes that are driving people’s priorities and making it all more complicated and costly than it need be imo. The unvaccinated are not just hurting themselves when they take up hospital beds and leave unpaid medical bills, leave kids who have to be found homes for or who now have a single parent which means much more likely to living at poverty level in their future, have businesses that struggle to replace them while sick wondering if they will be back, disrupt communities by driving up rates so partial lockdowns try to control the damage, etc. 

Sure.  The same could be said about choices drinkers, smokers, and fat people make as well.   Where do we draw the line with regard to people's personal choices?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, BRMC said:

Sure.  The same could be said about choices drinkers, smokers, and fat people make as well.   Where do we draw the line with regard to people's personal choices?

When those choices endanger and/or kill other people. For example, drink driving and second-hand smoke.

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When those choices endanger and/or kill other people. For example, drink driving and second-hand smoke.

And none of those examples are preventable or the damage greatly reduced by getting a simple shot.

[BRMC]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When those choices endanger and/or kill other people. For example, drink driving and second-hand smoke.

Now I'm not understanding your argument.   The shot doesn't stop you from catching or spreading COVID.  The shot primarily protects you.  

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Rivers said:

Ok.  So Florida has had more deaths per million than California.  Fair enough.  But why is this the case?  Is it because California has strict lockdown measures and mask mandates.  Or is it because Florida has more non-vaccinated people?  
If it’s the latter, then it’s the fault of those not getting the vaccine.  And that’s their choice that they freely made.

63% fully vaccinated in Florida.  65.6% fully vaccinated in California.  

That small of a difference can't explain a 38.33% increase in transmission rates and 50.36% increase in deaths.  

Quote

Now let’s say lockdowns really do work. Maybe they do. Is it worth the cost?  Is the harm we’re causing our children, our society, and the economy really worth it?   

I wonder how a child who lost a parent might answer that question, or a parent who lost an immunocompromised child, etc. 

We are nearing 1 million deaths.  I don't think the economic burden caused by lockdowns comes close to the cost of human life lost and suffering.  It is estimated that 11.1 million Americans have or are suffering from long Covid.  Not to mention the costs/burden on the healthcare system with some states like Idaho implementing crisis standards of care in their hospitals for the first time in state history.  In this state of crisis, all patients (whether they have Covid or not) are adversely affected from Covid.  

There is no question if lockdowns work.  And while nobody is a fan of lockdowns, I think there are last resort situations where they absolutely are justified and worth the cost when comparing risk/benefit. 

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Assuming you disagree with anything that doesn't support continual boosters, how about we test various theories among the states?  You can force vaccines every three months on everyone in your state and let other states use early monoclonal antibody treatments or other regimens recommended by doctors.  Let's see what happens?

I don't disagree with investing in Covid treatments.   I never have.  They are no where near as effective or practical as vaccines though. 

We don't need to implement your impossible study to know that vaccines are more effective.  We already have the data. 

Quote

PITTSBURGH – Monoclonal antibodies, a COVID-19 treatment given early after coronavirus infection, cut the risk of hospitalization and death by 60%

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/051721-bariola-mab-ofid

Quote

Overall effectiveness against death from Delta infections at least 14 days after the second vaccine dose was 90% (95% confidence interval [CI], 83% to 94%) for Pfizer and 91% (95% CI, 86% to 94%) for AstraZeneca.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/10/trials-covid-vaccines-90-effective-against-delta-infection-death

Quote

Pfizer's coronavirus vaccine is 90% effective at preventing hospitalization, with no waning protection from hospital admission for up to six months, a new study found.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-10-05/study-pfizer-vaccine-90-effective-against-hospitalization-for-6-months

60% vs 90%?  I'll take the vaccine please.

I would also much rather get a quick prick in the shoulder annually or semiannually than having to sit in a clinic with an IV in my vein for 2 hours every time I get Covid.   Most people don't do that.  

Go to any hospital and you will see that vaccines are more effective at preventing hospitalization and death - largely because they are more practical.  The reason people are still dying and hospitalized from Covid at terribly high rates is because they AREN'T seeking available treatment because they don't think they need it....then it quickly becomes too late.  Vaccines work better because you don't have to think about it or second guess if your symptoms are bad enough or if you are high risk, etc.  

Vaccines are more effective.  Period. 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by pogi

[Rivers]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

63% fully vaccinated in Florida.  65.6% fully vaccinated in California.  

That small of a difference can't explain a 38.33% increase in transmission rates and 50.36% increase in deaths.  

I wonder how a child who lost a parent might answer that question, or a parent who lost an immunocompromised child, etc. 

We are nearing 1 million deaths.  I don't think the economic burden caused by lockdowns comes close to the cost of human life lost and suffering.  It is estimated that 11.1 million Americans have or are suffering from long Covid.  Not to mention the costs/burden on the healthcare system with some states like Idaho implementing crisis standards of care in their hospitals for the first time in state history.  In this state of crisis, all patients (whether they have Covid or not) are adversely affected from Covid.  

There is no question if lockdowns work.  And while nobody is a fan of lockdowns, I think there are last resort situations where they absolutely are justified and worth the cost when comparing risk/benefit. 

I’ve said from the beginning that we face a moral conundrum.  The virus  causes harm. Lockdowns and other restrictions cause harm.  Which is the greater evil?  I don’t know.  I don’t think we have a perfect solution.  
 

That being said, I’m glad I live in a less restrictive state.  I’m a fan of freedom.  

[BRMC]

6 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I’ve said from the beginning that we face a moral conundrum.  The virus  causes harm. Lockdowns and other restrictions cause harm.  Which is the greater evil?  I don’t know.  I don’t think we have a perfect solution.  
 

That being said, I’m glad I live in a less restrictive state.  I’m a fan of freedom.  

This is where I'm at.  I get disappointed that both sides spend so much time demonizing the other.

[Rivers]

49 minutes ago, BRMC said:

This is where I'm at.  I get disappointed that both sides spend so much time demonizing the other.

I demonize the extremes of both sides.

[Tacenda]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Honestly I am bewildered why there are debates going on about the harm lockdowns cause when we have people refusing to mask decently or to social distance and to take the damn vaccine.  Cart before the horse.

Not attacking anyone here because it is the community attitudes that are driving people’s priorities and making it all more complicated and costly than it need be imo. The unvaccinated are not just hurting themselves when they take up hospital beds and leave unpaid medical bills, leave kids who have to be found homes for or who now have a single parent which means much more likely to living at poverty level in their future, have businesses that struggle to replace them while sick wondering if they will be back, disrupt communities by driving up rates so partial lockdowns try to control the damage, etc. 

I need to steal this and put it on my FB or somewhere for all to see! In a nutshell, Calm. You go girl! 

 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I need to steal this and put it on my FB or somewhere for all to see! In a nutshell, Calm. You go girl! 

 

Just say “anonymous” if you do or rewrite it in your own words, please.  Meaning alter it as little or as much as you want and you can claim it as your own inspired by another if someone asks. I really am not interested in any of that kind of attention, but I am glad it works for you.  . 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Calm

[Stargazer]

On 12/19/2021 at 3:47 AM, rodheadlee said:

We got our booster jabs today. No side effects. Did I mention that I hate wearing a mask? My nose runs like the local river.

 

 

Yeah, me too.

Here in the UK we had been given leave to leave off the mask-wearing except in certain places, but when Omicron came onto the scene, the government put us back into the mask. Oh, well. At least I'm used to it now.

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just say “anonymous” if you do or rewrite it in your own words, please.  Meaning alter it as little or as much as you want and you can claim it as your own inspired by another if someone asks. I really am not interested in any of that kind of attention, but I am glad it works for you.  . 

I'm gutless, and won't post anything controversial. So no worries there. Should have mentioned that in reality I won't be posting it. 

[Stargazer]

I like the "acappellascience" YouTube science, and he put out a Covid-19 song about 11 months ago.

 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm gutless, and won't post anything controversial. So no worries there. Should have mentioned that in reality I won't be posting it. 

Well if you ever get ticked off enough, feel free to plagiarize all you want and have at them. 
 

But if I were in your family, I would be keeping my mouth shut too. Hate contention and pushing even gently doesn’t change minds that don’t want to be changed.  I had my own struggles with my husband over how  careful we would be and we agreed in most of it. It must be very difficult when there is dramatic differences. 

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Well if you ever get ticked off enough, feel free to plagiarize all you want and have at them. 
 

But if I were in your family, I would be keeping my mouth shut too. Hate contention and pushing even gently doesn’t change minds that don’t want to be changed.  I had my own struggles with my husband over how  careful we would be and we agreed in most of it. It must be very difficult when there is dramatic differences. 

Thanks Calm, going to hold it together tomorrow for sure. Family first...

[pogi]

 

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

That being said, I’m glad I live in a less restrictive state.  I’m a fan of freedom.  

I'm also a fan of freedom...not unrestricted and without exception though.  America is a better and safer place to live because freedom is not without restraint and is regulated with mandated public health measures. 

6 hours ago, Rivers said:

I demonize the extremes of both sides.

I don't know, I don't think you can get much more extreme on this issue then the liberty-no-matter-what (in terms of lock-downs during pandemics) position.

I think I am honestly the moderate one on this issue.  I too love freedom.  I am not an anarchist though.  I think compromises are justified in extreme situations in matters of public health.  I am not in favor of nationwide never-ending lockdowns and I think they should be isolated and targeted interventions of last resort, with the health of the health-care system being the triggering factor for lock-downs (or lack of effective prophylactic or treatment in the face of a largely unknown and highly contagious/deadly disease which is devastating large cities like New York - such as at the beginning of the pandemic).  Idaho implementing critical standards of care, for example, was good cause for a temporary and isolated lock-down.   

Freedom is not without limits, nor should it be.  That is the moderate position. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Rivers said:

That being said, I’m glad I live in a less restrictive state.  I’m a fan of freedom.  

I'm also a fan of freedom

 

The idea that the freedom to say no is more freeing and less restrictive than the freedom from financial and medical stress is another bewildering aspect to me, especially among church members who talk about how following commandments, following laws and rules results in more freedom, not less because it creates more opportunities. 

We talk about how not going into debt, being prepared gives us freedom from financial issues.  I see getting vaccinations as well as other preventative health measures as allowing for greater freedom in the future.  Choose to get a vaccine now so you can choose to be with your family later and choose how to spend money not wasted on paying unnecessary medical bills.

People who have created a fear of vaccines are the ones robbing others of their freedom imo.

Having experienced health issues for decades and now being pretty much confined to my home due to vertigo (it has lightened enough maybe next spring before the wild fires get going again I can at least go out for walks again, maybe even on my own), I can’t think of anything in my life that has deprived me of more freedom than poor health has, certainly no restrictions by the government. My daily state is more lockdown than any the government has imposed. 
 

I am not looking for pity. I see plenty of worse freedom depriving experiences out there, but honestly I laugh because temporary lockdowns and mask or vaccine mandates are inconveniences in my view, not something impinging on freedom, but rather saving it from deprivation by illness and death if not in our own homes, in enough of our community to screw things up for many.
 

Freedom is more attitude and cultural restrictions Imo than being forced by law in a country like the US for most on a day to day basis. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

The idea that the freedom to say no is more freeing and less restrictive than the freedom from financial and medical stress is another bewildering aspect to me, especially among church members who talk about how following commandments, following laws and rules results in more freedom, not less because it creates more opportunities.

This. Freedom through obedience is actually part of our doctrine and canon.

[Harry T. Clark]

On 12/22/2021 at 7:42 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't live in America and have never done this before, so I took up your challenge using data current as of today:

California confirmed cases per million population: 129,486. Florida confirmed cases per million population: 179,117. Conclusion: the rate of confirmed cases in Florida is 38.33 per cent higher in Florida than in California.

California confirmed deaths per million population: 1,928. Florida confirmed deaths per million population: 2,899. Conclusion: the rate of confirmed deaths in Florida is 50.36 per cent higher in Florida than in California.

When you make these false statements -- 'The numbers are the same' -- that can easily be verified, do you just assume that no one will check the figures? Or are you just repeating something you've heard/read somewhere without checking for yourself?

Are these numbers even true, mate?  Please give us a way to verify your claims.  Remember what your patron covid saint Neil Ferfuson said:  https://hannenabintuherland.com/financialcrisis/remember-dr-neil-ferguson-who-in-the-2020-predicted-up-to-65-million-covid-deaths/

Here are the numbers from worldometer.  California leads the pack and Florida is number 3.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Edited December 24, 2021 by Harry T. Clark

[Harry T. Clark]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't disagree with investing in Covid treatments.   I never have.  They are no where near as effective or practical as vaccines though. 

We don't need to implement your impossible study to know that vaccines are more effective.  We already have the data. 

60% vs 90%?  I'll take the vaccine please.

I would also much rather get a quick prick in the shoulder annually or semiannually than having to sit in a clinic with an IV in my vein for 2 hours every time I get Covid.   Most people don't do that.  

Go to any hospital and you will see that vaccines are more effective at preventing hospitalization and death - largely because they are more practical.  The reason people are still dying and hospitalized from Covid at terribly high rates is because they AREN'T seeking available treatment because they don't think they need it....then it quickly becomes too late.  Vaccines work better because you don't have to think about it or second guess if your symptoms are bad enough or if you are high risk, etc.  

Vaccines are more effective.  Period. 

 

 

 

The jury is still out on this one.  It takes years to determine your claim.  Perhaps it is true. Perhaps the overall death risk is really lowered from 0.7% to 0.3% with the vaccines.  However, that must be compared against the adverse event risk and that takes time and tough regulators that won't be compromised.  I don't think we have that now.

[Rivers]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

 

People who have created a fear of vaccines are the ones robbing others 
 

 

I’m with you on this one.  I’m tired of watching people suffer because they chose not to get vaccinated.