Christian Pastor on Trial in Finland

[JustAnAustralian]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

But I am skeptical we know exactly what has been said and how it has been said.

There's a screenshot here https://evangelicalfocus.com/europe/4715/finnish-christian-mp-under-incitement-investigation-for-quoting-the-new-testament

Which means it would be this post https://www.facebook.com/paivi.rasanen.71/posts/4760805470612741 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mgy401 said:

doesn’t prevent freedom-loving people anywhere and everywhere from pointing out troubling trends; especially those created and supported by emotionally-fragile jack-booted thugs who want to prosecute anyone who publicly disagrees with their life choices. 
 

Just because countries aren’t following the example of laws protecting American style of freedoms doesn’t mean they are headed to be ruled by emotionally fragile jackbooted thugs. 
 

Given the percentage of Americans who are incarcerated, America isn’t seen as a bastion of freedom in all eyes of the world. 
 

US may be top in freedom of speech, but there are other freedoms and overall the US isn’t in the top ten. 
 

And by one measure US is 5th in freedom of religion. 
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-countries

So far I haven’t seen one measure of freedom Canada didn’t beat the US on.
 

The US being more influenced by other countries, looking to them for ways to improve US freedoms might not be a bad idea.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by Calm

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Just because countries aren’t following the example of laws protecting American style of freedoms doesn’t mean they are headed to be ruled by emotionally fragile jackbooted thugs. 
 

Given the percentage of Americans who are incarcerated, America isn’t seen as a bastion of freedom in all eyes of the world. 
 

US may be top in freedom of speech, but there are other freedoms and overall the US isn’t in the top ten. 
 

And by one measure US is 5th in freedom of religion. 
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freest-countries

So far I haven’t seen one measure of freedom Canada didn’t beat the US on.
 

The US being more influenced by other countries, looking to them for ways to improve US freedoms might not be a bad idea.  

So far I haven’t seen one measure of freedom Canada didn’t beat the US on.
 

Hi Calm: I respect you very much, but perchance you might come down here and visit the descendants of thousands of Mennonites who had to flee Canada to pursue their religious beliefs without Canadian governmental interference. Canadian tolerance for religious freedom has not been sterling!

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, Duncan said:

yes, killing Jews is the same as a pastor in Finland. Talk about an "emotionally fragile jack booted thug", is that where the trend of US politics has gone? Who knew you and these others all of sudden care so much about gay people in Finland, Do you even know where Finland is? 

I have a solution why doesn't the US allow all the  Finnish gay people to live in the US, that way all you so called "freedom loving" people can love them and take care of them and not feel threatened by a pastor in their home country. Would you help them move in to your city/town?

(Do you even know where Finland is?) - quote from you!

My response - Wow, your biases are showing! Yes, I know where Finland is. I have traveled the country from top to bottom, have lectured in their schools and ministered in their Lutheran churches! I might also suggest that those who brought up this issue probably did so as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more so than as citizens of the United States. I am sure there must be some type of LDS work in Finland. Anything that would negatively influence the gospel as understood by the Finnish State Lutheran Church (which is very diverse, by the way) could also be assumed to negatively impact the opportunity for LDS ministry in that country. Knowing the mandate to spread the LDS gospel that drives church members, I would think that you (assuming you are a church member) would be concerned about that which restricts the tenets of that gospel as your church teaches it as well - regardless of your nationality which I do not know. Not sure why you made this a nationality issue? Me thinks the power of the gospel and the call to preach it in order to transform lives transcends borders and nationalities.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Navidad

[Navidad]

Hi SMAC: I am somewhat intrigued by your use of the term, "Christian Pastor" in the title of this thread. Would you mind sharing what that distinction (Christian) means to you in this context? Simple curiosity drives my question. Does Christian mean "non-LDS?" Does Christian mean "non-Muslim or Jewish?" If I referred to the bishop of our local ward as a "Christian bishop"  or a "Christian pastor" would that mean the same to you since he is obviously a Christian and a pastor/bishop? Some times on this forum I see folks making what seems to be a distinction by calling non-members of the LDS Church "Christian" or "Christians." Is it a distinction without a difference? Or a difference without a distinction? Thanks so much.

[Duncan]

54 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Do you even know where Finland is?  

Wow, your biases are showing! Yes, I know where Finland is. I have traveled the country from top to bottom, have lectured in their schools and ministered in their Lutheran churches! I might also suggest that those who brought up this issue probably did so as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more so than as citizens of the United States. I am sure there must be some type of LDS work in Finland. Anything that would negatively influence the gospel as understood by the Finnish State Lutheran Church (which is very diverse, by the way) could also be assumed to negatively impact the opportunity for LDS ministry in that country. Knowing the mandate to spread the LDS gospel that drives church members, I would think that you (assuming you are a church member) would be concerned about that which restricts the tenets of that gospel as your church teaches it as well - regardless of your nationality which I do not know. Not sure why you made this a nationality issue? Me thinks the power of the gospel and the call to preach it in order to transform lives transcends borders and nationalities.

I do know where Finland is thank you! One of my best friends served his mission there and I know members of the church from there as well. 

[Teancum]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

Sadly, I think there are elements of society in the U.S. that would also want to do this

If so it is a small radical group of people.  Sort of like the right wing fringe like Mike Flynn who wants to make Christianity (though which flavor we do not know) a national religion.  You know, one nation under God required one religion according to Flynn.  

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  So quoting the Bible causes "harm" to a "community."

There is plenty in the Bible that is harmful.  Are you for stoning sabbath day breakers?   The Bible and criticism of its contents is not above reproach.  Quite frankly there is much in it the deserves criticism and even scorn. Just because you and others believe it is God's word does not give it special protection.  Do you give the same preferential status to the Quran or other faiths holy books? 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Teancum

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

The article provides a number of links.  But sure, you can summarily dismiss the entirety of the article without giving it a fair hearing.  Have at it.

Imagine if I immediately discounted an article solely because the author was gay.  If I implied that this worldview renders its adherents inherently untrustworthy and dishonest. 

Meanwhile, let's see how a "gay" website treats this story:

Huh.  So quoting the Bible causes "harm" to a "community."

The word "properly" here has a distinctily chilling ring to it.

Nothing Räsänen can reasonably be construed as causing or endorsing "bullying, discrimination, intimidation, starvation and violence."

Mr. "I believe in freedom of speech and the right to disagree" Strandberg sure seems to not believe in these things when he dislikes the speech and disagreement, since he is calling on the government to "properly" address Räsänen "speech."

The article goes on to embrace the irony even further:

Right.  Nothing says "I oppose the trampling of human rights" like siding with the government for punishing speech and religious belief.

I'm not sure if these characterizations are accurate.  If they are, I don't agree with some of them.

But I would never endorse the government using its authority to criminally punish her for saying them.  

Pretty chilling that her government is in the business of "investigating" her religious writings.

Gotta love how some folks so readily embrace censorship and punitive measures by government as soon as such things useful for silencing and/or punishing speech and thoughts they dislike.

"Live and let live" my foot.  

Anyhoo, per this article she is charged with "three counts of ethnic agitation over online statements about homosexuals":

The statements.  

She's being criminally charged for giving voice to thoughts.

The press release is in Finnish, but the article continues:

There are actually people who are okay with this lady being criminally charged and punished for daring to say what she thinks.

It's sad that exercising these rights can incur the real risk of being criminally charged and convicted.

It's further sad that there are people who are quite happy to see this sort of thing happen.

Well, you could read up more.

Except . . . when it is.  Here's an article from the Washington Times: 

Yeah, she definitely deserves criminal punishment and incarceration by the state for doing that.

Prison time for . . . quoting Romans, publicly "speaking about homosexuality" and publishing a pamphlet seven years before the law was changed to include gays as a "protected class." 

Yeah, there's nothing for Christians to worry about.  Until there is.  Then the other shoe falls and the narrative becomes "Well, you had it coming anyway."

"Live and let live" my foot.  

More:

It is disconcerting that there are people who are actually supportive of this sort of the government punishing this sort of thing.  

I guess, for some, Christians aren't deserving of protection from "human rights abuses."

She's not wrong to be concerned about such things.

But she's a Christian who dares to say what she things, so for some she deserves whatever punishment she gets.

There are some who genuinely don't want Christians to have and enjoy those "basic freedoms."

I admire her fortitude.  She's willing to go to prison to defend her rights of speech and religion.

See also here: U.S. academics: Sanction Finnish prosecutor for charging Christians opposing gay marriage

A link to the open letter is here, and is very much worth a read (how often do American academics publicly defend religious liberty?).  Some key bits:

Hmm.  

Quoting Romans = "ethnic agitation."  Huh.

It sure does send that message.

And there are people who are quite happy with that message.

For some, a "universal declaration" doesn't necessarily apply to Christians who dare to say what they think.

For some, it is an acceptable use of governmental power to criminally punish Christians who say what they think.

For some, the punitive use of governmental power to suppress "the right to believe and express one's beliefs" is a good thing.

From the Jerusalem Post: Finnish Evangelical pastor, MP under investigation over anti-LGBTQ booklet

Imagine "inciting hatred" as a brickbat.  A blunt instrument in the hands of government.  It can be used against virtually anyone for virtually anything they do or say.

There are some who are apparently quite happy to let the government use this weapon to punish divergent points of view.  I hope these folks reconsider that.

Sage words.  I think it's reasonable to be concerned that such things can happen, or are happening, in places outside of Finland as well.

There's nothing keeping you from reading up about this.  It took me two minutes to find the above items.

Thanks,

-Smac

Did you support Prop 8 and other initiatives aimed at preventing same sex marriage?  If yes your words ring hollow to me.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I do think the Bible needs an overhaul. 

And, who would do this “overhaul”? 

[Chum]

41 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I do think the Bible needs an overhaul. 

And, who would do this “overhaul”? 

St. Jerome would seem to be the logical choice, if that was still okay with Pope Damasus I.

[Teancum]

57 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

And, who would do this “overhaul”? 

Joseph Smith made an attempt.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

You are obviously trying to get everyone worked up about this.

Smac loves to find any chance to play the persecution and threat of losing religious freedom card any chance he gets.   

[ksfisher]

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

most US citizens couldn't even find on a map?

Why the insult?

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

17 hours ago, Duncan said:

most US citizens couldn't even find on a map?

Why the insult?

It's a measure of disinterest.

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know if that is true, honestly. I feel it's more a lot of different authors.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1) 

Nothing new hear because since the war in heaven till now men and women by the millions have rejected the word of God and the sayings of his inspired prophets because they say hard and upsetting things against sin and unrighteousness.  And so it will be forever, which is one of the reasons why there are lower kingdoms of glory reserved for the majority who strain against the truth of God and are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. It seems that with the exception of a select few the majority inevitably fail to acknowledge and yield to the strictness of Got, which strictness is sure evidence of the intense concern and abiding love.he fells for his children.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

3 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1) 

Nothing new hear because since the war in heaven till now men and women by the millions have rejected the word of God and the sayings of his inspired prophets because they say hard and upsetting things against sin and unrighteousness.  And so it will be forever, which is one of the reasons why there are lower kingdoms of glory reserved for the majority of the human family who strain against the truth of God and are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus. It seems that with the exception of a select few the majority inevitably fail to acknowledge and yield to the strictness of Got, which strictness is sure evidence of the intense concern and abiding love.he feels for his children.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

 

But remember, only as far as it is translated correctly.

[mnn727]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I do think the Bible needs an overhaul. 

I wonder what God thinks?

[Chum]

1 minute ago, mnn727 said:

I wonder what God thinks?

So far, God has left it up to lots and lots and lots of men to decide.

[Robert F. Smith]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

...........Sadly, I think there are elements of society in the U.S. that would also want to do this.........................

Including in some states in the U.S., I think.

I am grateful to live in the United States, and to have the ability to contest such things..................

I think of St Paul in the dock for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

However, there is little likelihood that this sort of thing could happen in the USA.  The Finns like to mix church and state, and they are also so OCD.

[Calm]

16 hours ago, Navidad said:

So far I haven’t seen one measure of freedom Canada didn’t beat the US on.
 

Hi Calm: I respect you very much, but perchance you might come down here and visit the descendants of thousands of Mennonites who had to flee Canada to pursue their religious beliefs without Canadian governmental interference. Canadian tolerance for religious freedom has not been sterling!

I am American, I lived in Canada about 15 years. They certainly aren’t perfect, their treatments of First Nations and Québécois in the past were horrendous.  And prejudice is still high among many.  But the measures I was referring to are in the here and now, so pointing to the past is not appropriate for this topic.

There are somethings Canada did better and other things the US did better IMO while I was there.  My position is not to treat other countries with disdain or fearful of their influence, only willing for influence to go one way.  Or reject that we have anything to learn from them even if the way they choose to maximize their people’s freedom is not the way we choose.  We shouldn’t dismiss an approach because it is not how America or we want to do things.  Different cultures work better with different approaches IMO. Added: IOW, I think we err if we simply pull out one issue and make assumptions about how free or how anything that makes another country or that it will have the same kind of impact in another country as it might have here.

We should also, IMO, recognize the imbalance of influence that currently exists.  US culture and the government policies have had a massive impact on the world, not always good and still does.  We shouldn’t assume if something would be an issue in the US, that it need be elsewhere. Maybe they have ways to mitigate negative impacts where we don’t, so more protection is needed here but it already exists elsewhere.

PS:  I am so grateful I lived in Canada when I did and my kids were basically raised there for most of their youth.  I am so grateful we were there when my daughter was diagnosed with diabetes, I am so grateful we moved back when we did so she didn’t have to wait a number of years for treatment available to her immediately in the US.  I am glad I lived there and in Russia so I saw the whole “ugly American” stereotype was both true and false at an individual and at a policy level.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Calm: I respect you very much, but perchance you might come down here and visit the descendants of thousands of Mennonites who had to flee Canada to pursue their religious beliefs without Canadian governmental interference. Canadian tolerance for religious freedom has not been sterling!

Interesting that they bypassed the US and chose Mexico as their destination in their pursuit of religious freedom.  Indeed, many in our church also fled the US for Mexico to enjoy religious freedom.  I think this highlights Calms point that other countries outrank the US in terms of religious freedom.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by pogi

[Navidad]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Interesting that they bypassed the US and chose Mexico as their destination in their pursuit of religious freedom.  Indeed, many in our church also fled the US for Mexico to enjoy religious freedom.  I think this highlights Calms point that other countries outrank the US in terms of religious freedom.  

At the decision-making point it came down to Mexico or Mississippi. Certainly they (the Mennonites) were looking for religious freedom, but I would be disinenguous if I didn't add that I think they got the best deal here in Chihuahua and without the mosquitos to boot!

[Chum]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Calms point that other countries outrank the US in terms of religious freedom.

I think she points out that US's relationship with religion is complicated.

I'd append that US protections of religion are beneficial because they are inclusive of the non-powerful and marginalized.