Christian Pastor on Trial in Finland

[Scott Lloyd]

21 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

From the talking points:

”CRT’s intolerance can be found in schools, the workplace, and the entertainment sector, “normalizing” belief in systemic racism for the average American.”

 It must cause you a lot of anguish to realize that the CRT bogeymen have even gotten Dallin Oaks who recently spoke about the problems of systemic racism. It’s amazing that his years in the legal profession and his access to the spirit of discernment didn’t shield him from this. What hope do the rest of us have? Thank God for the heritage foundation. Who else could we turn to to correct the prophets?

I reject your insinuation that anything said or written by President Oaks amounts to an endorsement of critical race theory. I think it irresponsible even to hint at such a thing. 
 

Added later: Now, if you can point out where President Oaks supports the idea that all white people are accountable for what has transpired in the past and bear guilt because of their skin color, and that all black people are irredeemably oppressed and held back because of their skin color (a notion that many intelligent black people themselves reject), it might be cause for “a lot of anguish.”

Edited November 29, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

This is quite false. There are no laws being passed to ban discussion of the fact of racism or slavery in American history. What is objected to is indoctrination in critical race theory and its elements as an ideology that would permanently brand people as oppressors or victims solely by dint of skin color. 

That is not what CRT teaches.

[why me]

On 11/27/2021 at 8:06 PM, The Nehor said:

 on the part of those whose primary purpose is maintaining the current racial power structures.

I must say that when i listen to the news, it seems that the news media still thinks that the US is a white/black society. I hear hardly a mention of the Asian or Hispanic communities. It is all about the white oppressors and the black victims. This is the same for CRT. If I were Asian or Hispanic, I would feel forgotten in the discussion. I wouldn't exist. And if I were a recent African immigrant to the US, I would hope that CRT were not taught. Much rather prefer more subjects that would allow my children to succeed. CRT takes people's eyes off the ball: class struggle. Does race actually matter when it comes to class? Not really. And this is why it is being promoted, I believe.

[why me]

37 minutes ago, Teancum said:

That is not what CRT teaches.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory

It can be interpreted that way. It all depends on the teacher and how that teacher teaches it. And how the school implements it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/us/new-york-private-schools-racism.html

For the elite it has always been divide and conquer.

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

22 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My observation is that the “talking heads” and “rank-and-file” whom you denigrate have a keener grasp of the matter than you think. Those who claim it’s nothing more than discussion about slavery and racism in American history are the ones who don’t seem to get it. 
 

Here’s a clear-eyed and cerebral analysis by the Heritage Foundation. I offer it for consideration and in so doing place it alongside Navidad’s insightful posts. 
 

https://www.heritage.org/civil-rights/report/critical-race-theory-the-new-intolerance-and-its-grip-america

Wow, by the second paragraph they have already started in on Marxism.

How clear-eyed and cerebral.

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, longview said:

Nothing obscure about CRT.  Parents across the country have seen plenty of its corrosive precepts to raise a strong objections to it at school board meetings.  Many have been videotaped which has led to greater awareness among the public.  Some school teachers have expressed embarrassment and chagrin at being exposed in the zoom sessions (parents watching over the shoulders of their children).  Even Merrick Garland has gotten involved and sent FBI agents to investigate many of those parents.  Truly chilling!

A lot of this is plain wrong. People are saying it. However a lot of it is factually wrong.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, why me said:

I must say that when i listen to the news, it seems that the news media still thinks that the US is a white/black society. I hear hardly a mention of the Asian or Hispanic communities. It is all about the white oppressors and the black victims. This is the same for CRT. If I were Asian or Hispanic, I would feel forgotten in the discussion. I wouldn't exist. And if I were a recent African immigrant to the US, I would hope that CRT were not taught. Much rather prefer more subjects that would allow my children to succeed. CRT takes people's eyes off the ball: class struggle. Does race actually matter when it comes to class? Not really. And this is why it is being promoted, I believe.

It is almost as if you can’t get a cohesive grasp of complex realities without deep dive investigative reporting instead of the clickbait banners running in our shallow 24 hour news cycle. It is why it is largely only the elderly who are used to it who still get their information from “the news”.

As to it being primarily about class this is a repackaging of the “Civil Rights Movement is actually about COMMUNISM” thing. Of course economic classes are involved on many levels but pretending it is all actually about class is about pretending racism is dead and gone. It is not. Many are uncomfortable with that. Many people shut down when confronted with that reality. They will turn to anyone who tells them the opposite. Hence why we are where we are.

[OGHoosier]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

As to it being primarily about class this is a repackaging of the “Civil Rights Movement is actually about COMMUNISM” thing. Of course economic classes are involved on many levels but pretending it is all actually about class is about pretending racism is dead and gone. It is not. Many are uncomfortable with that. Many people shut down when confronted with that reality. They will turn to anyone who tells them the opposite. Hence why we are where we are.

Can you think of no other reasons why we might be here?

[longview]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

On 11/27/2021 at 5:51 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

My observation is that the “talking heads” and “rank-and-file” whom you denigrate have a keener grasp of the matter than you think. Those who claim it’s nothing more than discussion about slavery and racism in American history are the ones who don’t seem to get it. 
Here’s a clear-eyed and cerebral analysis by the Heritage Foundation. I offer it for consideration and in so doing place it alongside Navidad’s insightful posts. 
https://www.heritage.org/civil-rights/report/critical-race-theory-the-new-intolerance-and-its-grip-america

Wow, by the second paragraph they have already started in on Marxism.

How clear-eyed and cerebral.

I greatly appreciate @Navidad's link that describes in great detail the historical development of Critical Theory and its offshoots:  CRT and CIT.  I thought how insightful it was that CIT (I believe it stands for Critical Identities Theory) is going to be the next big thing.  There are going to be more and more divisions being made to separate (alienate) a greater part of the population.  With every new "identity" there will automatically be more "oppressors" to be targeted and vilified.  One example is transgendered "women" are allowed to complete in female sporting events.  Thus stoking ever more turmoil.

It has already been discussed in magazines that deal with current events for many decades that it is radicals that are constantly pushing for more avenues of revolution.  The communists are known to use dialectics to construct new arguments as shown here - - -

From the wikipedia:  

Hegelian dialectic, usually presented in a threefold manner, was stated by Heinrich Moritz Chalybäus^[27] as comprising three dialectical stages of development: a thesis, giving rise to its reaction; an antithesis, which contradicts or negates the thesis; and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis. Although this model is often named after Hegel, he never used that specific formulation. Hegel ascribed that terminology to Kant.^[28] Carrying on Kant's work, Fichte greatly elaborated on the synthesis model and popularized it.

On the other hand, Hegel did use a three-valued logical model that is very similar to the antithesis model, but Hegel's most usual terms were: Abstract-Negative-Concrete. Hegel used this writing model as a backbone to accompany his points in many of his works.^[29]

The formula, thesis-antithesis-synthesis, does not explain why the thesis requires an antithesis. However, the formula, abstract-negative-concrete, suggests a flaw, or perhaps an incompleteness, in any initial thesis—it is too abstract and lacks the negative of trial, error, and experience. For Hegel, the concrete, the synthesis, the absolute, must always pass through the phase of the negative, in the journey to completion, that is, mediation. This is the essence of what is popularly called Hegelian dialectics.

Edited November 29, 2021 by longview

[Stargazer]

On 11/24/2021 at 4:29 AM, Duncan said:

oh which, the US doesn't have that right, unless President of the US is somehow the Prime Minister of Finland as well? . We should change James 1:27 then to say "speak out against Finnish Homosexuality"

Yes, yes, Canada is just SO enlightened. It's so enlightened it's deathly afraid of allowing a woman who was kept as a sex slave by ISIS from telling her story, for fear it would promote Islamophobia.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10247301/School-CANCELS-event-ISIS-survivor-Nadia-Murad-saying-visit-offensive-Muslims.html

Whatever you do, don't refer to someone as "her" when they are a "zir".

Mind so open one's brain has fallen out. Squish. I think you richly deserve Mr. Trudeau.

Ever hear of the human right to free speech? I think that Americans have a perfect right to complain about the behavior of any government or any persons in the world -- they all seem to feel it's their right to complain about Americans, don't they? Shouldn't there some kind of reciprocity be at play here? And here you are, Canadian complaining about what Americans are saying? You sure you aren't being a tad hypocritical here? If we're not allowed to complain about other nations, they you shouldn't be allowed to complain about us, now should you?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Stargazer

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, yes, Canada is just SO enlightened. It's so enlightened it's deathly afraid of allowing a woman who was kept as a sex slave by ISIS from telling her story, for fear it would promote Islamophobia.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10247301/School-CANCELS-event-ISIS-survivor-Nadia-Murad-saying-visit-offensive-Muslims.html

Whatever you do, don't refer to someone as "her" when they are a "zir".

Mind so open one's brain has fallen out. Squish. I think you richly deserve Mr. Trudeau.

Ever hear of the human right to free speech? I think that Americans have a perfect right to complain about the behavior of any government or any persons in the world -- they all seem to feel it's their right to complain about Americans, don't they? Shouldn't there some kind of reciprocity be at play here? And here you are, Canadian complaining about what Americans are saying? You sure you aren't being a tad hypocritical here? If we're not allowed to complain about other nations, they you shouldn't be allowed to complain about us, now should you?

So, Smac was worried that was potentially happening in Finland was somehow going to go on in the greatest country north of Mexico and south of Canada and I don't think you need to be worried. But you could be right that Canada's Prime Minister doesn't look good at the intersection of Finnish Law and US conservative fearmongers. It's your former country though and not mine, not now and not ever 

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/fatah-the-outrageous-censorship-of-nadia-murad

Edited November 29, 2021 by Duncan

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wow, by the second paragraph they have already started in on Marxism.

How clear-eyed and cerebral.

I never realized you were such a devotee of Marxism. 

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Can you think of no other reasons why we might be here?

There are a thousand reasons we are where we are. They are all rooted in the same fundamental flaw. We are all stupid humans.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never realized you were such a devotee of Marxism. 

I can see how someone who sees “Marxism” as a scare word that denotes all things evil and vile could come to the faulty conclusion that someone who understands what Marxism is and what it is not must be a devotee. The Heritage Foundation falls into that category.

For better or worse I am not a fan of it. The easiest refutation is its claims of historical determinism. The idea that a revolution is inevitable might be appealing but I don’t buy it. At this point it is like watching lunatics telling us exactly when the Second Coming is going to hit or that pillow guy’s latest prediction for when the Supreme Court is going to overturn an election. If it were inevitable it would have started by now. Plus Marx would have been very confused at Russia and China being the first to kick off his ideas. In Marx’s ‘inevitable’ progression towards a communist state neither were ready according to the model.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Ever hear of the human right to free speech? I think that Americans have a perfect right to complain…..”

Can I use this? I think it captures a lot of what is going wrong in the USA.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, longview said:

I greatly appreciate @Navidad's link that describes in great detail the historical development of Critical Theory and its offshoots:  CRT and CIT.  I thought how insightful it was that CIT (I believe it stands for Critical Identities Theory) is going to be the next big thing.  There are going to be more and more divisions being made to separate (alienate) a greater part of the population.  With every new "identity" there will automatically be more "oppressors" to be targeted and vilified.  One example is transgendered "women" are allowed to complete in female sporting events.  Thus stoking ever more turmoil.

That is your worst case scenario?

7 hours ago, longview said:

It has already been discussed in magazines that deal with current events for many decades that it is radicals that are constantly pushing for more avenues of revolution.  The communists are known to use dialectics to construct new arguments as shown here - - -

You are about half a century late to the ‘everything is a front for communism’ glory days under McCarthy. Sorry you missed the party the first time but we are not doing it again.

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never realized you were such a devotee of Marxism. 

 

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I can see how someone who sees “Marxism” as a scare word that denotes all things evil and vile could come to the faulty conclusion that someone who understands what Marxism is and what it is not must be a devotee. 

Pardon. I should have said, “I never realized you were such an apologist for Marxism.”

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Pardon. I should have said, “I never realized you were such an apologist for Marxism.”

And here we have in the wild a nutty conservative insisting once again that anyone who disagrees with him is a secret Marxist. They can’t help themselves even when it is blatantly false. It is reflexive. The Cold War broke a lot of brains.

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

So, Smac was worried that was potentially happening in Finland was somehow going to go on in the greatest country north of Mexico and south of Canada and I don't think you need to be worried. But you could be right that Canada's Prime Minister doesn't look good at the intersection of Finnish Law and US conservative fearmongers. It's your former country though and not mine, not now and not ever 

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/fatah-the-outrageous-censorship-of-nadia-murad

I was being harsh because I was ticked off. Overnight I came back to my senses and hoped you hadn't seen it yet so I could soften the approach. I shouldn't post when highly annoyed. Your response is much more measured and sensible than my post. Thanks for that.

Having lived in all three countries, the US, Canada, and the UK, I love all three. There are things happening in all three that greatly concern me. I was a "Landed Immigrant" in Canada once upon a time, will have UK citizenship soon I hope, and will remain a US citizen -- it's not my "former country", I just don't reside there except for a few weeks out of the year.

The thing is, what happens in Europe does affect the US because the same forces seem to be at play in both places. I see smac's concerns. I'm not surprised that others don't.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Can I use this? I think it captures a lot of what is going wrong in the USA.

Use it for what? You're asking for permission to use a very prosaic string of words as if there's something profound about them. I didn't mean that only Americans have a right to complain, or that they had a particular right to complain over anyone else. Brits have the same right to complain about things in the US, and I get to hear a little about it over here. I have no problem with it -- yesterday while driving back home from stake conference I was complaining to my wife that a particular point of British traffic law was ridiculous, so let's have reciprocity all around. While visiting Oregon from Washington state I used to complain that the silly Oregonians wouldn't let you pump your own gas, and the Oregonians would come over to Washington state and get all bent out of shape because they'd sit in their cars at the pump waiting for someone to come pump their gas -- when the service wasn't even available.

I was just reacting to Duncan's apparent objection to Smac's complaint about how a Finnish pastor was being treated in his own country.

And how on earth does what I wrote "capture a lot of what is going wrong in the USA"? We're not supposed to complain about things?

Sorry, I'm a bit perplexed at the request.

[longview]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is your worst case scenario?

Nope.  Not by a long shot.  There will ALWAYS be more kinds of perversions to normalize and given "victim" status.  All part of the never-ending process of applying the infamous thesis, antithesis, and synthesis contrivances.  There will continue to be more varieties of transgenderisms.  Note the recent moves by giant tech companies to give users the ability to designate their gender from a list of over 50 terms.  There is even a fringe element that delight in playing with excrement between partners.  For several years now, there has been an ever increasing push for acceptance of pedophilia by various organizations such as NAMBLA and possibly ACLU.

Enoch talked with God who wept over the utter corruption of the antediluvian world.  It got so awful and violent that God was forced to wipe out all life except for Noah and his family and selected creatures.

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You are about half a century late to the ‘everything is a front for communism’ glory days under McCarthy. Sorry you missed the party the first time but we are not doing it again.

Not doing what again?  Maybe Joseph McCarthy was not the best man for investigating the extent of anti-American penetration of institutions.  But it is a fact that the Manhattan Project had some communist sympathizers that leaked atomic secrets to the USSR.  As well as in the State Department and other agencies.  I think most people would agree it should have been done without stoking so much hysteria (Red Scare).  After my graduation from college, I got to read some of the books by Ezra Taft Benson.  I was very astonished to see how much of the current state of affairs had already occurred in previous decades.  The encroachments by radicals are persistent and unrelenting and ever more pervasive.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

see smac's concerns. I'm not surprised that others don't.

My problem is smac and others appear to me to be presenting their concerns without the needed context of how the US impacts Finland and other countries when Americans are in protective mode (they don’t want it to happen in the US so they try to stop it from happening elsewhere from protest letters to covert and overt operations) or superior mode (the American way is the best and everyone else would be happier and more free if they changed their country to be more like us and here is how we want to help you….) as well as inflating the likelihood of impact by not recognizing how much Americans can resist change suggested by others or what is seen as traditional American. 
 

I point to the Metric system as my evidence. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And here we have in the wild a nutty conservative insisting once again that anyone who disagrees with him is a secret Marxist. They can’t help themselves even when it is blatantly false. It is reflexive. The Cold War broke a lot of brains.

Just saying that you obviously get spun up when you see Marxism attacked. That strikes me as apologia. 

[Teancum]

On 11/28/2021 at 12:49 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Added later: Now, if you can point out where President Oaks supports the idea that all white people are accountable for what has transpired in the past and bear guilt because of their skin color, and that all black people are irredeemably oppressed and held back because of their skin color (a notion that many intelligent black people themselves reject), it might be cause for “a lot of anguish.”

That is not CRT says. You need to educate yourself and get past your right wing talking points.  And who cares if there are a few intelligent black people who reject something.  If you give them credit do you credit the many black people who may disagree with them?  I doubt it.

[pogi]

27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just saying that you obviously get spun up when you see Marxism attacked. That strikes me as apologia. 

I don't see him doing that.  He seems to be getting spun up with the false and tired accusations of a secret Marxist plot.

The article also attacks post modernism (don't tell Bukowski!), suggesting that it "aims at the same destruction of society as the Marxist project".  That is just crap!