Tithing settlement

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This is now all online.

And for decades my ward clerks have given it to me in paper form before tithing settlement. If there is a discrepancy then they have me talk to the clerk.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

What is it exactly that causes us to complain about little things like this?

Sometimes we are just whiny turds that don't like to do what we are told if we don't see a reason and it cuts into our Sunday nap time.  But other times there is a whole world of heartache and sorrow underneath the questions (which are different than complaints) that no one else knows about. 

Unless you can tell the difference (and the vast majority of the time, you can't) it's more Christlike to assume the best in people who are questioning stuff, provide any answers you may have, and leave it between them and God.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My spouse has no desire to attend tithing settlement. We answer to our tithing situation in temple recommend interviews. Why is tithing settlement necessary and is there any reason one must go in person? 
 

For me, it has always seemed a bit of a waste of time and more about the Bishop meeting with each family to issue a ward challenge. 

I just had my tithing settlement yesterday.  We did it over facetime with our bishop, so there certainly is no law or policy which suggests that it must be in person.

One slight difference between the temple recommend interview question and tithing settlement is that the temple recommend interview is a simple yes or no question, but tithing settlement can be answered full, partial, or none. 

I could see tithing settlement going away in the future as the church is trying to streamline things and avoid unnecessary meetings, work-load for bishops, and time away from families.

[bluebell]

Here is a podcast where bishops explain their perspective on tithing settlement. It's from 2000 so fairly old but maybe it will provide insight for those who are looking for more information.

https://leadingsaints.org/wiwik-tithing-settlement/

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

It's quite simple.

• The bishop has to report annually the tithing status of every member in the ward, to headquarters. There's a specific report set up for that. Telling the bishopric member who interviews you for your T/R does not get entered into a report. And since these interviews only occur biennially, it wouldn't help the annual report.
• If you don't tell the bishop your tithing status in tithing settlement, then he has to make a guess. 
• Participating in tithing settlement is important for two reasons:
  • The ward's budget is calculated according to average sacrament meeting attendance combined with overall tithing faithfulness. Every member who is marked as a full tithepayer contributes towards the amount the church allocates to the ward (and stake) for annual operations. This benefits you indirectly due to ward operations that are helpful to you.
  • You have the opportunity to make sure that what you believe you donated matches what the ward says you donated. Granted, you can now do this online without reference to tithing settlement.
• You're also supposed to get a copy of the current membership status of family members so that you can review it for errors and omissions. Back when I was ward clerk, I recall that during tithing settlement one family discovered that their daughter's baptism had not been recorded, and, though she was nearly 12 at that time, was still carried as a "child of record." This enabled them to scramble to locate witnesses to the baptism and get it properly entered. Wouldn't it have been interesting if they hadn't caught this when she was about to be married in the temple, or attend BYU that she wasn't a member of the church and they had to scramble to get that sorted out, too?

That the bishop might use the interview to accomplish other things is superfluous. He's not asked to do anything other than ask tithing status, sign the annual donation form (for tax purposes), and receive any last-moment donations.

 

In the US it doesn't need to be signed for tax purposes.  There are other things required, but signature is not one of them.

[rongo]

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My spouse has no desire to attend tithing settlement. We answer to our tithing situation in temple recommend interviews. Why is tithing settlement necessary and is there any reason one must go in person? 
 

For me, it has always seemed a bit of a waste of time and more about the Bishop meeting with each family to issue a ward challenge. 

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I don't like doing them either, just because they are annoying.  Having to stay after church or go back on a Sunday, still in sunday dress, to see the bishop for ten minutes and say "yes we are full tithe payers" is kind of annoying.  I do it because I'm asked to and no other reason.

I did it as a bishop, but it was a real slog for me, too. Since I met with families and people I needed to meet with all the time, why wait until December (then it was changed to November 15 start time, then October 15) to visit with families? Plus, if there were issues like potential non- or under-payment of tithes and offerings, I wanted to address it when I noticed a problem, and not necessarily wait until tithing settlement time. 

I get the accountability before a judge in Israel thing, but it seems like there were other ways that could be done (which have now been implemented). Reluctant members are also a scheduling nightmare for clerks and bishops, since everyone on that end wants to visit as many people as possible in as few days as possible, but it's like pulling teeth with many. Gaps in the schedule were an issue.

I was really touched at all of the people who brought me dinner during tithing settlement (I did some marathon days). Sometimes, it was five or so at a time. I ate them all, but not in one sitting.  We just had a ward reunion on Saturday for the ward I was bishop of the first time (newly-created, all young families with young families at the same stage of life. It was a "golden era" for many of us, and we have stayed close even though most of us have moved away from that ward now. Now, we have kids in college and on missions). 

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Why can’t we just declare in an email?

We can, now. Our current ward gives the option of an email, a phone call, or a text as well as a personal meeting. Other leaders might prefer personal meetings, if possible. 

[Nacho2dope]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Why can’t we just declare in an email?

Our Bishop has decided to do tithing settlement over zoom. 

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As far as I know the bishop doesn't ever input anything with tithing.  

This is what I was referring to as needing input from the Bishop from tithing settlement. 
 

Quote

• The bishop has to report annually the tithing status of every member in the ward, to headquarters. There's a specific report set up for that….
• If you don't tell the bishop your tithing status in tithing settlement, then he has to make a guess. 
• Participating in tithing settlement is important for two reasons:
  • The ward's budget is calculated according to average sacrament meeting attendance combined with overall tithing faithfulness. Every member who is marked as a full tithepayer contributes towards the amount the church allocates to the ward (and stake) for annual operations. This benefits you indirectly due to ward operations that are helpful to you

I don’t see it as essential that the report has to be uptodate as in everyone’s tithing status in November or December….though the Bishop might check those who weren’t marked as full tithepayer earlier in the year had caught up. 
 

Added:  if I understand rongo, correctly throughout the year could work. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Calm

[strappinglad]

Imagine going to an 8 (?) hour church on Sunday like the Hutterites here do. 

To quote a valley girl... whatever  !

[mrmarklin]

4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My spouse has no desire to attend tithing settlement. We answer to our tithing situation in temple recommend interviews. Why is tithing settlement necessary and is there any reason one must go in person? 
 

For me, it has always seemed a bit of a waste of time and more about the Bishop meeting with each family to issue a ward challenge. 

FWIW I never go. I agree with your husband. 

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Tithing settlement is an opportunity for the bishop to minister.

 

Depending on our various callings, many of us have opportunities to meet with the bishop one-on-one.  Even without such a calling, I've met with my bishop over the years to discuss this or that personal issues I've had.

But tithing settlement is the only time that we meet with the bishop as a family.  As such, it is a unique ministering opportunity for the bishop. I enjoy tithing settlement for that reason.  My kids can see my interactions with the bishop, hear me declare myself a full tithe payer, hear the bishop solicitously ask about how we are doing, here my wife and I graciously respond to his inquiries. 

Yes, the timing and scheduling can be inconvenient, but the opportunity to be something more than a checkbox makes it worth the trouble. 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it is less the 15 minutes and more the prep and travel/wait time. 

Sure, in aggregate it might be more than 15 minutes, but I don't think it's an especially burdensome endeavor for the vast majority of people.

And, in those circumstances where it really would be, I'm sure most bishops would be more than willing to accommodate those specific members.

[CV75]

I think they should also have a jar of cash for people to pull out of or contribute to, for in case someone comes up short.

[Rain]

33 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Sure, in aggregate it might be more than 15 minutes, but I don't think it's an especially burdensome endeavor for the vast majority of people.

And, in those circumstances where it really would be, I'm sure most bishops would be more than willing to accommodate those specific members.

 The time commitment didn't even occur to me till some mentioned it.  Not a big deal to me, but if we are going to speak about it then I would say it goes with good, better, best to me.  It's obviously better than say playing a game just because you are bored, but for me it wouldn't be a best use of time.  But like I said, the time for me on this end of the interview is no big deal.

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Please don't make that assumption of those who question. Questions are not the same things as complaints though complaints sometimes come in question form.

I was not attributing motive. I tried to form my comment with “we” and not “you”. We was just trying to get an idea of where they were coming from

[Peacefully]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

This year our bishop is also doing them over zoom for those who want them, but not many people do.  We chose to do in person instead of Zoom.  Just goes to show how much people hate zoom, feeling like getting back into your church clothing and actually going to church in person is a better option.  

I’ll take Zoom any day, 😂 

[rongo]

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think they should also have a jar of cash for people to pull out of or contribute to, for in case someone comes up short.

I had that --- for little kids bringing in their piggy banks, and the parents not having it already counted and the slips filled out. Probably no surprise, but often those "drawers didn't balance."  Same with kids donating with coins in general. We had an unofficial "petty cash" collection in the clerk's office drawer for when the kids' donations didn't match their slips. Or, we could just re-write another slip. 

I had a newlywed couple declare as full one December. "You haven't paid any tithing the whole year," I told them with a quizzical look. The wife cut hair out of her house, they explained, and they threw their tithing for both of them into her "salon" drawer, but kept forgetting to bring it. I asked if they could run home and get it --- one point of tithing settlement is to make sure people are paying at least annually. They returned quickly with over $8000 in ones, fives, tens, and twenties. I was so relieved! I was afraid that they  had lied, and then were going to have to come back and sheepishly admit it. I didn't think the batch would balance on the first try, but it did (manual handcounts verified by the other priesthood holder). 

There was another couple I preemptively met with before tithing settlement --- without their kids. I did that if and when I noticed irregularities that might lead to difficult conversations and calls to repentance (so it wasn't with the whole family there in December). They were a well-to-do couple (a nurse and a realtor), with prominent stake callings, but had paid no tithing all year. The husband awkwardly explained that he had lacked the faith to pay it, and hadn't gotten around to telling his wife. She was hurt, embarrassed, and furious. Like our family, I pay for both of us (my wife teaches now, but has only worked for the last 9 months). If I stopped paying tithing (hers and mine), she wouldn't know until tithing settlement. I took the brother's recommend, but not the sister's, because she had no idea and thought he was paying it. Interestingly, she turned some of her anger towards me after that. I tried to be as diplomatic and gentle as possible, but it does happen in human nature where people resent the person who is "right" or who addresses something, but not the person who was "wrong" or at fault. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, rongo said:

I had that --- for little kids bringing in their piggy banks, and the parents not having it already counted and the slips filled out. Probably no surprise, but often those "drawers didn't balance."  Same with kids donating with coins in general. We had an unofficial "petty cash" collection in the clerk's office drawer for when the kids' donations didn't match their slips. Or, we could just re-write another slip. 

I had a newlywed couple declare as full one December. "You haven't paid any tithing the whole year," I told them with a quizzical look. The wife cut hair out of her house, they explained, and they threw their tithing for both of them into her "salon" drawer, but kept forgetting to bring it. I asked if they could run home and get it --- one point of tithing settlement is to make sure people are paying at least annually. They returned quickly with over $8000 in ones, fives, tens, and twenties. I was so relieved! I was afraid that they  had lied, and then were going to have to come back and sheepishly admit it. I didn't think the batch would balance on the first try, but it did (manual hand counts verified by the other priesthood holder). 

There was another couple I preemptively met with before tithing settlement --- without their kids. I did that if and when I noticed irregularities that might lead to difficult conversations and calls to repentance (so it wasn't with the whole family there in December). They were a well-to-do couple (a nurse and a realtor), with prominent stake callings, but had paid no tithing all year. The husband awkwardly explained that he had lacked the faith to pay it, and hadn't gotten around to telling his wife. She was hurt, embarrassed, and furious. Like our family, I pay for both of us (my wife teaches now, but has only worked for the last 9 months). If I stopped paying tithing (hers and mine), she wouldn't know until tithing settlement. I took the brother's recommend, but not the sister's, because she had no idea and thought he was paying it. Interestingly, she turned some of her anger towards me after that. I tried to be as diplomatic and gentle as possible, but it does happen in human nature where people resent the person who is "right" or who addresses something, but not the person who was "wrong" or at fault. 

I don't work outside of the home and make no money but I'm the one who pays tithing, and it's paid in my name since that's who I'm signed in as when I pay online.  My husband would have no idea if I didn't pay it or didn't pay a full tithe until the end of the year either.  It's kind of crazy that guy went to tithing settlement without coming clean to his wife first, since it was likely to come out in the meeting!

I do wish that a husband and wife could pay under both their names together, though I understand why that probably isn't possible accounting wise.  And I know it doesn't really matter.  I just hate to see either name with a zero under amount of tithing paid when it was the work, faith, and action of both partners that constituted a full tithe.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Is the report the Bishop has to give a pass fail for paying tithing or does he have to provide an amount?  I am imagining him inputting stuff all year and then just having the computer create a year end report to submit to SLC.

The amount paid is already recorded. There is an online report that the Bishop (and a few other people) can access. It lists every ward member. The Bishop has to mark each member as a full, partial, or non-tithe payer. There is also a selection where the Bishop marks whether it was declared by the person or the bishop. Non payers are easy. If they paid nothing they are almost always non-payers unless they didn’t make anything that year in which case the bishop should be aware of their destitute situation anyways or know that they are a college student or whatever.

Without supporting the idea that we should boycott Tithing Settlement I would say that if you choose to boycott it do email or text your bishop your declaration. It saves him from what amounts to guesswork on the declaration form.

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't work outside of the home and make no money but I'm the one who pays tithing, and it's paid in my name since that's who I'm signed in as when I pay online.  My husband would have no idea if I didn't pay it or didn't pay a full tithe until the end of the year either.  It's kind of crazy that guy went to tithing settlement without coming clean to his wife first, since it was likely to come out in the meeting!

Well, they didn't know the purpose of the meeting. It wasn't around tithing settlement (it was long before it started), and they probably assumed it was for a calling since I had asked to meet with both of them. I think she/they felt ambushed, but I couldn't think of a better way to ask about it --- if I met with the husband alone, who knows if what he was telling me was true? Also, she worked and (probably) made more than he did. While many couples (like yours and mine) have one person pay for both, many also pay separately. It's just odd when you don't see any tithing paid at all after half a year (and some couples pay annually in December. If that's the case, then that would come out in the meeting).

Totally agree on the craziness of thinking it would stay hidden forever. I think it might have been a combination of "tomorrow never comes" and "let's avoid tithing settlement and let him declare for us this year." 

Problem with that is: if they have been completely unresponsive about tithing settlement and pay $0, I declare "non." For anything >$1, but well short of a rational "full," I would declare "partial." 

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The amount paid is already recorded. There is an online report that the Bishop (and a few other people) can access. It lists every ward member. The Bishop has to mark each member as a full, partial, or non-tithe payer. There is also a selection where the Bishop marks whether it was declared by the person or the bishop. Non payers are easy. If they paid nothing they are almost always non-payers unless they didn’t make anything that year in which case the bishop should be aware of their destitute situation anyways or know that they are a college student or whatever.

Without supporting the idea that we should boycott Tithing Settlement I would say that if you choose to boycott it do email or text your bishop your declaration. It saves him from what amounts to guesswork on the declaration form.

Yes, it's a very time-consuming report to fill out --- every man, woman, and child in the ward, most of whom you end up having to declare for. 

There are instances where people may be paying directly to Salt Lake without it showing up on reports, or in-kind with stock or real estate, but like you said, it's really cut-and-dried for most people. I never had any "Bill Reel" activists who wanted to fight over what is a full tithe, and within reason, if they declared full then they were full. If I had questions, I would try to meet with the couple without children, in case they needed to declare partial (so it wasn't in front of the kids). 

I did have someone once who sold land and paid **a lot** of tithing off of that land sale --- on December 31. Given the amount, they were sure to want that on that year's taxes, so the deposit needed to be made on that day, but he included the stub, not the cashier's check itself. We had to hunt him down in the hinterlands to get the check.

I also had a "pays annually" family that only would ever do tithing settlement on New Year's Eve --- which was very inconvenient to me and the clerk or counselor I had help with the transmission and deposit. Very inconsiderate. 

[rongo]

Another hassle from the bishop's side is that it's hard to keep to the tight schedule (designed to put everyone out of their misery with tithing settlement as quickly as possible) when people have problems and are going to run way over their 5-10 minute appointment. That cascades into a real "freeway backup" down the schedule, and then you have the challenge of people leaving the office in an obvious state of upset with a whole bunch of people around. This happened more than one would like. 

That's why I liked to do shepherding/ministering all the time, and not use tithing settlement as an annual "see and talk to every family" event. If possible, where people are going to need more time than 5-10 minutes, then not connected with tithing settlement at all. 

[rongo]

A lot of me wouldn't mind seeing tithing settlement just be done away with. But, if you, say, have people self-declare online and the bishop ratify or "change" it online if he disagrees --- it seems like he should talk to the people first, and . . . then why get rid of tithing settlement. 

For well over 90% of people and families, it's as routine as the sustainings in sacrament meeting that we don't give a lot of thought to. I think for them, it could be gone and they wouldn't be any less "not accountable before God and the judge in Israel." 

Where it could be a real problem is if someone who shouldn't have been is torpedoed for a calling because a bishop erroneously declared (or changed) a tithing declaration. I'm convinced that tithing status is checked for callings above bishop. For that and other reasons, people really should know if the bishop changed a declaration or something. 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

 The time commitment didn't even occur to me till some mentioned it.  Not a big deal to me, but if we are going to speak about it then I would say it goes with good, better, best to me.  It's obviously better than say playing a game just because you are bored, but for me it wouldn't be a best use of time.  But like I said, the time for me on this end of the interview is no big deal.

I think the problem I have with the good/better/best characterization is that, for all practical purposes, I don't think anybody is so constantly scheduled with 'best' level activities that they can't spare what amounts to 30 minutes max (including travel time) somewhere during the final three months of the year.

On any particular given night? Sure, they might very well have something better to do at that time.. But on every day and every night for three months straight? I find that to be far less likely.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

he husband awkwardly explained that he had lacked the faith to pay it, and hadn't gotten around to telling his wife. She was hurt, embarrassed, and furious…

they didn't know the purpose of the meeting. It wasn't around tithing settlement (it was long before it started), and they probably assumed it was for a calling since I had asked to meet with both of them. I think she/they felt ambushed, but I couldn't think of a better way to ask about it --- if I met with the husband alone, who knows if what he was telling me was true? 

I am curious why you didn’t ask the wife alone first about it if you figured the husband would lie.   Or at least suggest she discuss it with her husband before coming in and say you would like to talk to just the two of them without the kids first. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Calm