The Elder Holland I Know

[Peacefully]

44 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

 

I have a few thoughts to share about your assertion of denied companionship. Right now I'm in a similar position to the friend that @Bernard Gui is referring to. With all due respect I believe, and my experience informs me, that your views of the companionship you think we're missing are incomplete. If companionship is only the loving partnership of two people in this world, same gender or not, then I don't believe you're seeing the whole picture as we see it.

If the Lord really does ask the Saints who are gay to forsake all other ideologies and practices outside of their covenants, making Him their highest priority, then surely He would provide a way for them to actually accomplish what He has asked of them. This is the very witness of all the scriptures, particularly the Book of Mormon, that in addition to our need for a Savior it is that same Savior who never gives a commandment without a way to fulfill it.

This is our testimony: that living a celibate and faithful life is not an impossibility when you have God's pure witness to your very soul that He will provide a way where you can triumph over all your foes. Trust me when I say that I wouldn't be choosing this life if I didn't have the assurance that He had greater things in mind for me and could actually enable me to accomplish what He's asked.

We could liken this in a way to other Christian traditions where certain groups of the faithful abstain from physical or sexual companionship. You may not think anything of it but there is a conviction and confidence that comes when we stand before Him willing to forsake everything we we want and are in favor of what He wants to give us instead, and what He has in mind is far grander and more worthwhile than anything we could accomplish if left to ourselves.

What society calls happiness, peace, and satisfaction are sorely lacking in the eternal perspective that this life is not all there is, and what we have chosen to become through service, ministry, compassion, forgiveness, and grace means everything. Anyone who has sought with all their might, mind, and strength to become one with the Savior can likewise testify that this satisfaction surpasses all understanding while also transforming and purifying our mortal needs in a manner that enables us to be faithful to Him.

I'm not saying that every person, every LGBT Saint, must make the same choice I've made, but that contrary to conventional wisdom, and Satan's deception, it's not impossible or undesirable as long as you can see something of what He sees. Again I say that If I didn't know that He was real and had a plan for me then I would be living as my feelings dictated, but I testify that He does live, and that His plan is to transform our perspective so that we can bear all things through and with Him.

I wrote a journal entry the other day thanks to some prompting from a new friend, and I think it would be appropriate to share. I was asked how I could navigate the Gospel and Church of Jesus Christ while being attracted as I am. This is my perspective as a Saint who, due to countless experiences with the Lord, cannot deny the truth and light that this Gospel is everything it claims to be even as I struggle with answers the Lord hasn't given yet. 

I invite you and everyone, no matter what side of the debate you find yourself, to find more compassion for those striving to live their faith, and also for those who have felt to find their way outside of it. Both groups of Saints as well as everyone in between need all the love and generosity we can muster. It's not an either-or proposition despite how many voices claim you can only do one or the other.

 

Thank you for sharing your story. I am learning so much from people like you, California Boy and others. We definitely can’t put every gay member or ex-member into the same basket. I hear you and I honor your choices. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Peacefully

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

do you think that BYU of 2021 should operate like BYU of 1941? who wants to attend a school or anything that doesn't keep up with the times?

I think it would depend on what, exactly, is meant by "keeping up with the times."  Using pen, paper, and a mimeograph machine at the University while other institutions are using the latest in computer hardware and software?  By all means, keep up with the times.  Nothing should deter the university from reasonable use of the latest technology available to educate its students and fulfill its mission—or even from designing and implementing better technology and methods to do so.

On the other hand, should our goal be to build Babylon or to establish Zion?

Edited August 29, 2021 by Kenngo1969
"Pat, is there a 'be'?"

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

You may not think anything of it but there is a conviction and confidence that comes when we stand before Him willing to forsake everything we want and are in favor of what He wants to give us instead, and what He has in mind is far grander and more worthwhile than anything we could accomplish if left to ourselves

This is beauty. 

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Gillebre said:

to find more compassion for those striving to live their faith, and also for those who have felt to find their way outside of it.

Good plan.  I agree. 

[Kenngo1969]

I just watched Elder Holland's address, the source of all of this hullabaloo.  Goodness, gracious. He delivered an entire 38-minute address, something that's more than twice as long as the average Church of Jesus Christ Conference address, and some people zeroed in on ... two ... syllables.  Two syllables.  Two.  That's it.  (Or perhaps three, depending on what you include in the utterance). It probably took him all of a second to say those two syllables.  One second.  Out of thirty-eight minutes.  Talk about making a man an offender for a word!

Honestly, I don't get Elder Holland's love for BYU, a love that began when, and has persisted since, he says, he was 7 years old.  Honestly, I probably have more love for one of Elder Holland's other alma maters than I do for BYU, then-Dixie College (probably because I graduated from the latter and not from the former, although [and it pains me to say this] I probably wouldn't feel nearly at home on that campus today as I did then).

But even if I don't "get" it, I don't, for even a nanosecond, doubt the love that Elder Holland has for the University, for all of its students, faculty, and staff (whatever their sexual orientation, and he did implore faculty, staff, and students to be more aware of, and more accepting of, the variety of students there, including gays and lesbians).  Elder Holland was very emotional when giving that address.  I would encourage everyone to watch it.  Don't just read it (although I imagine a text will be made available, I don't know when, where, or if that will be the case).  Don't just look for the supposedly-offending word ("Aha!  He did say it!").  Watch it ... carefully.  Pay attention to his delivery.

I don't expect everyone to feel the same way about what Elder Holland talks about as he does.  (In some ways, I did not.)  But I don't see how anybody possibly could question the sincerity of his heart and the fact that he feels very deeply and very strongly about what he says, including, and especially, his love for the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, his love for BYU, and his love for everybody on the campus.

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

although I imagine a text will be made available, I don't know when, where, or if that will be the case)

Already has:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-2021-byu-university-conference

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I’m saying the opposite in my post. That it’s nearly impossible to find a solid consensus of the majority beyond “we’re all god’s children” or something really really basic. The further on talks about beliefs and concerns around LGBT issues in the church With members the harder it is to find general consensus. I’m not sure why you’d want examples of what we agree with when my main point is that we still quite often don’t 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Ahhh. I misunderstood your point. I was asking for an example of something we could agree on. Sorry for the confusion. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

do you think that BYU of 2021 should operate like BYU of 1941? who wants to attend a school or anything that doesn't keep up with the times?

Probably not in all instances, nor like it was in 1964 when I first attended, but that was not my point. Everyone knows the school is owned by the Church and who is the Board of Trustees. Everyone knows what the Honor Code entails and agrees to observe it on condition of attendance or employment. To go there after signing the contract and then trying to subvert the things you don’t like is disingenuous in my opinion. Why would someone do that? There are many schools one could choose to attend. There are other students and teachers who would gladly take the empty spot. 

It would be like me joining the Daniel Boone Gun Club. I sign the safety contract, I pay the dues, I go to the range, I shoot a pistola. Then I decide that some of the rules are offensive to me, so I try to get the Club owners to accommodate my preferences. Or worse, I work to subvert the Club from within because I am actually opposed to firearms. It makes no sense to me that someone would do that to any institution. Why not just go someplace better suited to you? 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think it would depend on what, exactly, is meant by "keeping up with the times."  Using pen, paper, and a mimeograph machine at the University while other institutions are using the latest in computer hardware and software?  By all means, keep up with the times.  Nothing should deter the university from reasonable use of the latest technology available to educate its students and fulfill its mission—or even from designing and implementing better technology and methods to do so.

On the other hand, should our goal be to build Babylon or to establish Zion?

is the university a church or a university?

[Duncan]

11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Probably not in all instances, nor like it was in 1964 when I first attended, but that was not my point. Everyone knows the school is owned by the Church and who is the Board of Trustees. Everyone knows what the Honor Code entails and agrees to observe it on condition of attendance or employment. To go there after signing the contract and then trying to subvert the things you don’t like is disingenuous in my opinion. Why would someone do that? There are many schools one could choose to attend. There are other students and teachers who would gladly take the empty spot. 

It would be like me joining the Daniel Boone Gun Club. I sign the safety contract, I pay the dues, I go to the range, I shoot a pistola. Then I decide that some of the rules are offensive to me, so I try to get the Club owners to accommodate my preferences. Or worse, I work to subvert the Club from within because I am actually opposed to firearms. It makes no sense to me that someone would do that to any institution. Why not just go someplace better suited to you? 

What do you see gay students trying to do at BYU? What about other groups operating at BYU to keep gay students from doing anything, like Keeping Faith at BYU group? should they ban them as well, or call out their leaders of their group, Tristan Mourier and Hanna Seariac? they signed on like everyone and they seem to be subverting BYU to fir their alt right position. Why don't they go elsewhere? 

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

What do you see gay students trying to do at BYU? What about other groups operating at BYU to keep gay students from doing anything, like Keeping Faith at BYU group? should they ban them as well, or call out their leaders of their group, Tristan Mourier and Hanna Seariac? they signed on like everyone and they seem to be subverting BYU to fir their alt right position. Why don't they go elsewhere? 

I don’t know why you would think I hold to double standards. 

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Duncan said:

em to be subverting BYU to fir their alt right position.

What makes you think Hanna is alt right?

[Duncan]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

What makes you think Hanna is alt right?

this Keeping faith at BYU stuff, plus some of stuff on FAIR, she's hardly the most out there person though

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

this Keeping faith at BYU stuff, plus some of stuff on FAIR, she's hardly the most out there person though

You think she is into white supremacy, because I don’t read her in that way at all?

[Vanguard]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I just watched Elder Holland's address, the source of all of this hullabaloo.  Goodness, gracious. He delivered an entire 38-minute address, something that's more than twice as long as the average Church of Jesus Christ Conference address, and some people zeroed in on ... two ... syllables.  Two syllables.  Two.  That's it.  (Or perhaps three, depending on what you include in the utterance). It probably took him all of a second to say those two syllables.  One second.  Out of thirty-eight minutes.  Talk about making a man an offender for a word!

Honestly, I don't get Elder Holland's love for BYU, a love that began when, and has persisted since, he says, he was 7 years old.  Honestly, I probably have more love for one of Elder Holland's other alma maters than I do for BYU, then-Dixie College (probably because I graduated from the latter and not from the former, although [and it pains me to say this] I probably wouldn't feel nearly at home on that campus today as I did then).

But even if I don't "get" it, I don't, for even a nanosecond, doubt the love that Elder Holland has for the University, for all of its students, faculty, and staff (whatever their sexual orientation, and he did implore faculty, staff, and students to be more aware of, and more accepting of, the variety of students there, including gays and lesbians).  Elder Holland was very emotional when giving that address.  I would encourage everyone to watch it.  Don't just read it (although I imagine a text will be made available, I don't know when, where, or if that will be the case).  Don't just look for the supposedly-offending word ("Aha!  He did say it!").  Watch it ... carefully.  Pay attention to his delivery.

I don't expect everyone to feel the same way about what Elder Holland talks about as he does.  (In some ways, I did not.)  But I don't see how anybody possibly could question the sincerity of his heart and the fact that he feels very deeply and very strongly about what he says, including, and especially, his love for the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, his love for BYU, and his love for everybody on the campus.

 

I hadn't listened to it either. What a beautiful address - better than I thought it would be. : )

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

should they ban them as well, or call out their leaders of their group, Tristan Mourier and Hanna Seariac? they signed on like everyone and they seem to be subverting BYU to fir their alt right position

By her own admission, Hanna Seariac leans more to the left these days. I recommend looking at her Twitter feed to see what I'm talking about.

And for what it's worth, I wouldn't characterize KFBYU as an alt-right organization, more like a conservative movement with fundamentalist leanings. Tbh the term "alt-right" has become more pejorative than informative and its usage in daily speech should be reassessed. 

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Already has:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-2021-byu-university-conference

OK, but in order to get the full impact, still, I believe it needs to be viewed and not read.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

is the university a church or a university?

I don't understand your question.  Though times have changed greatly, time was when education, including higher education, was exclusively the province of religious organizations.  You think that a university's mission should be divorced completely from that of its sponsoring institution?

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

By her own admission, Hanna Seariac leans more to the left these days. I recommend looking at her Twitter feed to see what I'm talking about.

And for what it's worth, I wouldn't characterize KFBYU as an alt-right organization, more like a conservative movement with fundamentalist leanings. Tbh the term "alt-right" has become more pejorative than informative and its usage in daily speech should be reassessed. 

Thank you, I have interacted with Hanna, but I am not aware of much of the final product of her media stuff.   Nothing I have read or heard her say suggests she is alt right to me.  She interacted with some on DezNat when it got started, but cut all ties when it became clear how they intended to ‘defend the Church’ or rather promote their own inappropriate ideas.

Can you define fundamentalist, as I would view the group as more conservative with a strong traditionalist slant.

I think the accusation of her and the other guy being alt right is aggressive and needs to be supported or withdrawn.  Duncan is accusing them of being essentially “white identity” proponents….that type of accusation should be documented, so a CFR Duncan.

From her feed, says she is focusing on individual issues now…not being political aligned if I understood correctly

Quote

I am an active, believing Latter-day Saint and that won't change. I did, however, take President Oaks' talk very seriously when he gave it, and truthfully, it was a relief for me because in some ways, I've been feeling out of place on the right for a while

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[bluebell]

17 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

The whole thing that gets me with this incident is that the whole thing could have been done with a bulk email to staff saying: "Staff are reminded that as employees of BYU, and by extension employees of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are expected to act in ways that are not antagonistic to church teachings". Then let Elder Holland speak on something else in his normal manner.

I don't think that Elder Holland believes that only church employees need to hear that message.  I think he believes that regular members need to hear it just as much.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

You think she is into white supremacy, because I don’t read her in that way at all?

not white supremacy

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't understand your question.  Though times have changed greatly, time was when education, including higher education, was exclusively the province of religious organizations.  You think that a university's mission should be divorced completely from that of its sponsoring institution?

almost but not completely

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I just watched Elder Holland's address, the source of all of this hullabaloo.  Goodness, gracious. He delivered an entire 38-minute address, something that's more than twice as long as the average Church of Jesus Christ Conference address, and some people zeroed in on ... two ... syllables.  Two syllables.  Two.  That's it.  (Or perhaps three, depending on what you include in the utterance). It probably took him all of a second to say those two syllables.  One second.  Out of thirty-eight minutes.  Talk about making a man an offender for a word!

Honestly, I don't get Elder Holland's love for BYU, a love that began when, and has persisted since, he says, he was 7 years old.  Honestly, I probably have more love for one of Elder Holland's other alma maters than I do for BYU, then-Dixie College (probably because I graduated from the latter and not from the former, although [and it pains me to say this] I probably wouldn't feel nearly at home on that campus today as I did then).

But even if I don't "get" it, I don't, for even a nanosecond, doubt the love that Elder Holland has for the University, for all of its students, faculty, and staff (whatever their sexual orientation, and he did implore faculty, staff, and students to be more aware of, and more accepting of, the variety of students there, including gays and lesbians).  Elder Holland was very emotional when giving that address.  I would encourage everyone to watch it.  Don't just read it (although I imagine a text will be made available, I don't know when, where, or if that will be the case).  Don't just look for the supposedly-offending word ("Aha!  He did say it!").  Watch it ... carefully.  Pay attention to his delivery.

I don't expect everyone to feel the same way about what Elder Holland talks about as he does.  (In some ways, I did not.)  But I don't see how anybody possibly could question the sincerity of his heart and the fact that he feels very deeply and very strongly about what he says, including, and especially, his love for the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, his love for BYU, and his love for everybody on the campus.

 

Definitely the talk was a call for the faculty and staff to step up and defend the faith, using the gospel teachings on marriage and family to illustrate (there are so many other areas of "confusion and conflict" to wrestle with these days as well). Political ideology and social (rather, socio-sexual?) activism are not the Lord's way. And if they can't bridge matters of faith and intellect in the Lord's / Lord's anointed's way -- per President Kimball's reference to a unique and special way -- they will make decision based on the fact that higher education is not essential for exaltation (its proper place being a tool for building Zion). This is more of the crux, in my opinion, than LGBTQ + issues, as topical as they are.

I think Elder Holland is taking the "teach correct principles and let them govern themselves" approach for the speech, but is also (as part of the Trustees and Board, etc.) putting a structure in place to do that (the cabinet-level Office of Belonging).

[Teancum]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:40 PM, Bernard Gui said:

You are way out of bounds, Brother T. It’s not about me. Looks like he isn’t gay enough for your taste or too stupid to realize the oppression or both. In any case, you have no status to speak for or about him. That’s why I asked earlier if the current LGB folks think they speak for all gay Saints   In this case, they do not. Neither do you.

You brought it up.  I challenged your position. I did make a string statement which I still believe.  However I am a live and let live person. People make all sorts of choices,  If your friend is happy then terrific.  But you and your friend do not represent the feelings of all LDS LGBT people as well.  

 

  Additionally I never claimed to speak for all LBGT LDS people. You don't want to or can't seem to see things from someone else's view apparently or try to empathize as you ignore attempts to get you to self reflect.  I am happy to move on from this topic with you. If you want any last words feel free.  

Edited August 29, 2021 by Teancum

[OGHoosier]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Can you define fundamentalist, as I would view the group as more conservative with a strong traditionalist slant.

Traditionalist would be a better word, yes.