The Elder Holland I Know

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

How would this be done, unless each student advertised thier orientation? How would faculty and staff know?  

I don't think he's calling on people to be forced to advertise their orientation!    Sheesh!  I think he's simply saying that if someone becomes aware of another person's orientation, but the person is committed to living the standards of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, that person ought to be treated just the same as any other member of the Church of Jesus Christ.  And, in any event, whether someone is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ or not, we ought to be as understanding and compassionate as we can be, and to hope for the same in return.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:41 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Let the wild rumpus begin! Students occupying the Chancellor’s office, riding professors they dislike out on rails, shouting down dissent…all those fun things.  

I’ve imagined the Church cutting BYU loose from its influence, letting it fund and staff itself, set its own independent policies, make its way into the good graces of Big Academia, become like the others. I’m sure that’s not what the Brethren have in mind for its future, but it does give me something to ponder in retirement. 

As Elder Holland remarked, if such a thing were to happen, Big Academia would still say, “BYU who?”

[MustardSeed]

My son attends BYU, so these perspectives are of interest to me.  This is a post made on a popular platform, and the quote is the top response. 

[Bane]

I appreciated Elder Holland's BYU speech, but not as much as I appreciated Elder Packer's story about the missionary who punched his companion after his companion tried to make a move on him.

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 9/2/2021 at 8:17 AM, MustardSeed said:

This is a post made on a popular platform, and the quote is the top response. 

An appeal to pagan philosophy feels about right.

My flatmate (whose elder brother left the Church shortly after his academic position at BYU was terminated) liked to say, 'Moderation in all things'. One day I realised he actually thought that was in our scriptures somewhere. I pointed out to him that it originated in Roman paganism.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

An appeal to pagan philosophy feels about right.

My flatmate (whose elder brother left the Church shortly after his academic position at BYU was terminated) liked to say, 'Moderation in all things'. One day I realised he actually thought that was in our scriptures somewhere. I pointed out to him that it originated in Roman paganism.

While I agree with your central point that pagan philosophy ought not be passed off as scripture and that the phrase “moderation in all things” is not scriptural, there is in fact a similar phrase that does occur in scripture:

“And no one can assist in this work except he shall be humble and full of love, having faith, hope, and charity, being temperate in all things, whatsoever shall be entrusted to his care” (Doctrine and Covenants 12:8). 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[sunstoned]

On 9/1/2021 at 4:17 PM, MustardSeed said:

My son attends BYU, so these perspectives are of interest to me.  This is a post made on a popular platform, and the quote is the top response. 

That pic, which shows the south eastern entrance to the BYU campus is now called pride corner.  Pride corner is now showing up on google maps.  

 

[JustAnAustralian]

52 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Pride corner is now showing up on google maps.  

Except that the person that added it placed the marker on the accommodation across the street.

[Bob Crockett]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:17 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

While I agree with your central point that pagan philosophy ought not be passed off as scripture and that the phrase “moderation in all things” is not scriptural, there is in fact a similar phrase that does occur in scripture:

“And no one can assist in this work except he shall be humble and full of love, having faith, hope, and charity, being temperate in all things, whatsoever shall be entrusted to his care” (Doctrine and Covenants 12:8). 

This is an example of scripture drawing upon pagan references.  Paul did it frequently ("it is better to give than receive," for example), although here the Lord is purportedly talking.  Or maybe the pagans are drawing upon earlier eternal truths. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 9/7/2021 at 8:17 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

While I agree with your central point that pagan philosophy ought not be passed off as scripture and that the phrase “moderation in all things” is not scriptural, there is in fact a similar phrase that does occur in scripture:

“And no one can assist in this work except he shall be humble and full of love, having faith, hope, and charity, being temperate in all things, whatsoever shall be entrusted to his care” (Doctrine and Covenants 12:8). 

 

41 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

This is an example of scripture drawing upon pagan references.  Paul did it frequently ("it is better to give than receive," for example), although here the Lord is purportedly talking.  Or maybe the pagans are drawing upon earlier eternal truths. 

I don’t believe one could definitively state that the Doctrine and Covenants passage is influenced by a pagan reference without examining context. Even then, I don’t know that one can be certain. 
 

One would have to be better acquainted with pagan philosophy than I to know the pagan context. But consider the scriptural phrasing in context: “… being temperate in all things, whatsoever shall be entrusted to his care.”  I read this as saying one must avoid abuse of power or misuse of resources that are entrusted to one’s care. Thus, I don’t see the adjective “temperate” here as necessarily having application beyond this context. 
 

Afterthought: Wouldn’t a universal application of “temperate in all things” by definition be an instance of intemperance in that thing? (Something to make you go, “Hmm.”)

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

This is an example of scripture drawing upon pagan references.  Paul did it frequently ("it is better to give than receive," for example), although here the Lord is purportedly talking.  Or maybe the pagans are drawing upon earlier eternal truths. 

The Lord is talking in both instances. In Acts 20:35, Paul is quoting Jesus. And Doctrine and Covenants 12:8 is part of a direct revelation from Christ to Joseph Smith (see verses 2 and 9, wherein Christ identifies Himself as the author). 

[Bob Crockett]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The Lord is talking in both instances. In Acts 20:35, Paul is quoting Jesus. And Doctrine and Covenants 12:8 is part of a direct revelation from Christ to Joseph Smith (see verses 2 and 9, wherein Christ identifies Himself as the author). 

I disagree that Acts 20:35 draws upon Christian sources, as there is no source for this quote elsewhere.  Paul was never with Jesus.  Paul was influenced by pagan neo-Platonism, but the source of the quote is certainly up for debate.

Paul elsewhere drew upon mythology as if it were Gospel truth. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

I disagree that Acts 20:35 draws upon Christian sources, as there is no source for this quote elsewhere.

You’re saying, then, that the New Testament as it has been handed down to us constitutes a comprehensive and complete record of everything Jesus ever said or did in mortality? Bob, the New Testament itself contradicts that notion!

 

“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” (John 21:25)

 

Furthermore, to accept your assertion that Acts 20:35 does not “draw on Christian sources,” one would have to conclude Paul was either lying or blatantly wrong, for he gives a direct quote, to wit: 

“I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You’re saying, then, that the New Testament as it has been handed down to us constitutes a comprehensive and complete record of everything Jesus ever said or did in mortality? Bob, the New Testament itself contradicts that notion!

 

“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” (John 21:25)

 

Furthermore, to accept your assertion that Acts 20:35 does not “draw on Christian sources,” one would have to conclude Paul was either lying or blatantly wrong, for he gives a direct quote, to wit: 

“I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

 

It is going to take a lot of convincing for me to believe Jesus really said that.  But it doesn't really matter.  Paul said it and it is scriptural.  

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

It is going to take a lot of convincing for me to believe Jesus really said that.  But it doesn't really matter.  Paul said it and it is scriptural.  

Since you are disputing the scriptural record, plain and unequivocal as it is, I think it is up to you to do the convincing. 

[Bob Crockett]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Since you are disputing the scriptural record, plain and unequivocal as it is, I think it is up to you to do the convincing. 

There you go again.  I don't feel a need to do so.  The phrase is not in the gospels.  Paul didn't walk with Jesus.  The record is not "plain and unequivocal."  Paul cites dubious sources elsewhere.  

[smac97]

On 9/1/2021 at 4:17 PM, MustardSeed said:

My son attends BYU, so these perspectives are of interest to me.  This is a post made on a popular platform, and the quote is the top response. 

Hmm.  I admire Aurelius, but I reject his juxtaposition of devotion to God against "the virtues you have lived by."  The virtues we live by are how we devote ourselves to God.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Quote

While I agree with your central point that pagan philosophy ought not be passed off as scripture and that the phrase “moderation in all things” is not scriptural, there is in fact a similar phrase that does occur in scripture:

“And no one can assist in this work except he shall be humble and full of love, having faith, hope, and charity, being temperate in all things, whatsoever shall be entrusted to his care” (Doctrine and Covenants 12:8). 

This is an example of scripture drawing upon pagan references. 

Could you elaborate?  What sort of "pagan references" do you think underlie Joseph Smith's drafting of D&C 12?

6 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Paul did it frequently ("it is better to give than receive," for example), although here the Lord is purportedly talking.  Or maybe the pagans are drawing upon earlier eternal truths. 

Hmm.  Temperance seems to have been addressed thematically throughout the scriptures:

Quote

Temperance, Temperate

See also Self-Mastery; Wine; Word of Wisdom

• glutton shall come to poverty, Prov. 23:21.
• They that tarry long at the wine, Prov. 23:30.

• they are full of extortion and excess, Matt. 23:25.
• he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, Acts 24:25.
• man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things, 1 Cor. 9:25.
• Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law, Gal. 5:23.
• be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess, Eph. 5:18.
• Let your moderation be known unto all, Philip. 4:5.
• good men … just, holy, temperate, Titus 1:8.
• men be sober, grave, temperate, Titus 2:2.
• we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, 1 Pet. 4:3.
• to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience, 2 Pet. 1:6.

• being temperate in all things, Alma 7:23.
• be diligent and temperate in all things, Alma 38:10 (D&C 12:8).

• Remember faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, D&C 4:6.
• be sober; be temperate, D&C 6:19.
• be used, with judgment, not to excess, D&C 59:20.
• cast away your … excess of laughter, D&C 88:69.
• all these to be used with prudence, D&C 89:11.
• nevertheless they are to be used sparingly, D&C 89:12.
• in faith, and virtue, and knowledge, temperance, D&C 107:30.

And here:

Quote

Self-Mastery

See also Abstain; Temperance

• Cease from anger, and forsake wrath, Ps. 37:8.
• I have refrained my feet from every evil, Ps. 119:101.
• soft answer turneth away wrath, Prov. 15:1.
• He that hath no rule over his own spirit, Prov. 25:28.

• let him deny himself, and take up his cross, Matt. 16:24 (Mark 8:34).
• not as I will, but as thou wilt, Matt. 26:39.
• if thy hand offend thee, cut it off, Mark 9:43.
• every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate, 1 Cor. 9:25.
• seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, 1 Cor. 13:5.
• Resist the devil, James 4:7.
• refrain his tongue from evil, 1 Pet. 3:10.

• becometh as a child, submissive, Mosiah 3:19.
• teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, Alma 37:33.
• bridle all your passions, Alma 38:12.

• do not ask for that which you ought not, D&C 8:10.
• Pray always, that you may come off conqueror, D&C 10:5.
• beware how they take my name in their lips, D&C 63:61 (63:61–64; 136:21).
• who overcome by faith, and are sealed, D&C 76:53.
• cease from … your wicked doings, D&C 88:121 (88:121–25).
• let every man learn his duty, and to act in the office, D&C 107:99.
• persuasion, by long-suffering, D&C 121:41.
• clothe himself with charity, D&C 124:116.

• See also Prov. 1:15; Matt. 16:25; Luke 2:51; 14:25–28; Rom. 12:1–3; 2 Ne. 4:16–35; Alma 34:31–32; D&C 10:63; 59:9; 122:9.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bob Crockett]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Could you elaborate?  What sort of "pagan references" do you think underlie Joseph Smith's drafting of D&C 12

Hesiod. 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Quote

Could you elaborate?  What sort of "pagan references" do you think underlie Joseph Smith's drafting of D&C 12

Hesiod. 

So "temperance" is, for you, a "pagan" concept?

Quoth Joseph Smith:

Quote

“Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc. any truth? Yes. ... We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true ‘Mormons.’”

Presbyterians . . . Baptists . . . Methodists . . . and ancient Greek poets? 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

So "temperance" is, for you, a "pagan" concept?

You asked me.  I answered with the source. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

There you go again.  I don't feel a need to do so.  The phrase is not in the gospels.  Paul didn't walk with Jesus.  The record is not "plain and unequivocal."  Paul cites dubious sources elsewhere.  

Does every scriptural passage have to be corroborated in “the gospels” for you to accept it as having divine provenance? How about the listing of the gifts of the Spirit? That’s in each of the four Standard Works — Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price — but it’s not in any of the four gospels. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Does every scriptural passage have to be corroborated in “the gospels” for you to accept it as having divine provenance?

There you go again.  

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

There you go again.  

That’s not an answer. 
 

Did you see the part I just added? The listing of the gifts of the Spirit is in each of the four Standard Works, but it’s not in any of the four gospels. Does that render it suspect in your view? 

[Robert F. Smith]