The Elder Holland I Know

[Teancum]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:40 PM, Bernard Gui said:

You are way out of bounds, Brother T. It’s not about me. Looks like he isn’t gay enough for your taste or too stupid to realize the oppression or both. In any case, you have no status to speak for or about him. That’s why I asked earlier if the current LGB folks think they speak for all gay Saints   In this case, they do not. Neither do you.

I was going to message you privately but thought I would post this to all.  Reviewing my posts over the past few days I see i have been more aggressive than normal.  I apologize. And I especially apologize to Bernard. I did step over the line I think. I recently returned from Denver.  My 87 year old father, who I am very close to, became very ill a few weeks ago and passed away on August 18th.  It seems this has impacted me emotionally more than I had realized as I was in the thick of seeing what could be done for him, which was going to be hospice but he died before we were able to move him to a hospice facility.  I was with him when he died.  I think I have been more angry than is good and I think I have let it show here. So I am very sorry for some of my comments and especially about your friend.  I hope you can accept my apology.  The same for others that I may have stepped over the line with in the past few days.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Teancum

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Duncan said:

not white supremacy

What then?  Please, it is a significant accusation and should not just be thrown out there as if all of us will automatically known why you think that. 
 

For many, this may be their only exposure to Hanna and Tristan (can’t remember his last name, I am not familiar with him beyond KFBYU); it is best for it to be accurate not to leave false impressions. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Political ideology and social (rather, socio-sexual?) activism are not the Lord's way.

Within the Church I would agree.

What about outside the Church?  Do you see such activity as potentially a way to express our love for our neighbours?  If done in a charitable, compassionate, as well as assertive manner for good causes?

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

What then?  Please, it is a significant accusation and should not just be thrown out there as if all of us will automatically known why you think that. 

oh heavens, there are 132 pages of fair blog stuff that I won't be going through

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

oh heavens, there are 132 pages of fair blog stuff that I won't be going through

Then withdraw the accusation of alt right.  She is a public figure and my personal knowledge of her suggests your label of her as alt right is libel. I don’t know Tristan, but without evidence it falls into libel as well. This is not something I expect from you. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Calm

[Peacefully]

58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I was going to message you privately but thought I would post this to all.  Reviewing my posts over the past few days I see i have been more aggressive than normal.  I apologize. And I especially apologize to Bernard. I did step over the line I think. I recently returned from Denver.  My 87 year old father, who I am very close to, became very ill a few weeks ago and passed away on August 18th.  It seems this has impacted me emotionally more than I had realized as I was in the thick of seeing what could be done for him, which was going to be hospice but he died before we were able to move him to a hospice facility.  I was with him when he died.  I think I have been more angry than is good and I think I have let it show here. So I am very sorry for some of my comments and especially about your friend.  I hope you can accept my apology.  The same for others that I may have stepped over the line with in the past few days.

I’m so sorry for your loss:( I’ve lost both of my parents. It’s hard. 

[Duncan]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

Then withdraw the accusation of alt right.  She is a public figure and my personal knowledge of her suggests your label of her as alt right is libel. I don’t know Tristan, but without evidence it falls into libel as well. This is not something I expect from you. 

https://wheatandtares.org/2020/08/15/byu-petition-time-for-another-witch-hunt/

 

classy stuff being against the BYU Slavery project

if you can stomach listening to Tristan then go for it but I can't

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Duncan

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Duncan said:

https://wheatandtares.org/2020/08/15/byu-petition-time-for-another-witch-hunt/

 

classy stuff being against the BYU Slavery project

So you are slamming her for what an account says, an account that she says she is not the owner of or directly associated with because they both use “keeping faith” in their titles or addresses?

Quote

 Again, Hanna Seariac commented below that she was not involved in the creation of this relatively new Twitter account and is not responsible for its content.  What is certain, though, is that Seariac and Mourier have allied their cause with whoever is behind the Keeping Faith at BYU Twitter account. This is shown by the Keeping Faith at BYU Instagram page and the keepingfaithatbyu@gmail.com email address used to solicit submissions on Change.org). 

“Keeping faith” is not exactly a trademark or otherwise unusual phrase.  Assuming a connection due to generic phrase is like assuming Deseretbook and Deznat are connected because of Deseret being in both their names. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Calm

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

So you are slamming her for what an account says, an account that she says she is not the owner of or directly associated with because they both use “keeping faith” in their titles or addresses?

 

yes and you gave me the evidence for it, so thanks!

So, now that I gave you an example will you withdraw your accusation of me libeling them? 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Duncan

[CV75]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Within the Church I would agree.

What about outside the Church?  Do you see such activity as potentially a way to express our love for our neighbours?  If done in a charitable, compassionate, as well as assertive manner for good causes?

Personally, no. I see politically ideology and socio-sexual activism (pro- or con-) as primarily driven by self-interest, where charity, compassion and assertiveness become tools to an end.

In the case of Prop 8, I think the Church's involvement was to assert and disagree with civility, since charity and compassion are already a given in saintly demeanor. This may get to the love - advocacy balance often referred to.

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

yes and you gave me the evidence for it, so thanks!

So, now that I gave you an example will you withdraw your accusation of me libeling them? 

No, not until there is proof there is a connection where Hanna says there is none. For some reason the quote was cut off when I pasted and her disclaimer was missing. It is now corrected. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

You brought it up.  I challenged your position. I did make a string statement which I still believe.  However I am a live and let live person. People make all sorts of choices,  If your friend is happy then terrific.  But you and your friend do not represent the feelings of all LDS LGBT people as well.  
 

So, I’m confused by this post and the succeeding one.

I have zero standing to speak for them, but several years ago when his health was better he actively participated in a couple of “faithful”  LDS gay organizations, so he has spoken to, with, and for other LDS LGBT folks. (Under a pseudonym for a while but also with his name). Today his age and health severely  limit his activities. 

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

  Additionally I never claimed to speak for all LBGT LDS people. You don't want to or can't seem to see things from someone else's view apparently or try to empathize as you ignore attempts to get you to self reflect.  I am happy to move on from this topic with you. If you want any last words feel free.  

Yet you speak for him and about him. 

My friend has helped me see the LDS gay community from his (faithful) view. I also have experience with others who are bitter and antagonist towards the Church.

Self-reflect about what? That I have a dear friend who has chosen to remain a faithful a Latter-day Saint in the face of great pressure and adversity, when many including you expect him to deny his faith?

Edited August 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I was going to message you privately but thought I would post this to all.  Reviewing my posts over the past few days I see i have been more aggressive than normal.  I apologize. And I especially apologize to Bernard. I did step over the line I think. I recently returned from Denver.  My 87 year old father, who I am very close to, became very ill a few weeks ago and passed away on August 18th.  It seems this has impacted me emotionally more than I had realized as I was in the thick of seeing what could be done for him, which was going to be hospice but he died before we were able to move him to a hospice facility.  I was with him when he died.  I think I have been more angry than is good and I think I have let it show here. So I am very sorry for some of my comments and especially about your friend.  I hope you can accept my apology.  The same for others that I may have stepped over the line with in the past few days.

Sincere condolences on your loss.  I hope you can find peace during this difficult time.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

I was going to message you privately but thought I would post this to all.  Reviewing my posts over the past few days I see i have been more aggressive than normal.  I apologize. And I especially apologize to Bernard. I did step over the line I think. I recently returned from Denver.  My 87 year old father, who I am very close to, became very ill a few weeks ago and passed away on August 18th.  It seems this has impacted me emotionally more than I had realized as I was in the thick of seeing what could be done for him, which was going to be hospice but he died before we were able to move him to a hospice facility.  I was with him when he died.  I think I have been more angry than is good and I think I have let it show here. So I am very sorry for some of my comments and especially about your friend.  I hope you can accept my apology.  The same for others that I may have stepped over the line with in the past few days.

The loss of parents is difficult. I hope you and your family find solace. 

[Hanna Seariac]

The accusation of me being alt-right is incorrect. I'm politically liberal in a lot of ways and am to the left of Mitt Romney. I am not against the BYU Slavery project and have been actually immensely grateful for BYU's efforts to document the histories of persons of African ancestry. I've never said that I was against the BYU Slavery project. I don't run the Keeping Faith at BYU account and also didn't start it. Holding me responsible for that would be incorrect as I don't have involvement with the account. I think the alt-right is absolutely disgusting and a blight on our political system.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Hanna Seariac said:

The accusation of me being alt-right is incorrect. I'm politically liberal in a lot of ways and am to the left of Mitt Romney. I am not against the BYU Slavery project and have been actually immensely grateful for BYU's efforts to document the histories of persons of African ancestry. I've never said that I was against the BYU Slavery project. I don't run the Keeping Faith at BYU account and also didn't start it. Holding me responsible for that would be incorrect as I don't have involvement with the account. I think the alt-right is absolutely disgusting and a blight on our political system.

Thank you, Hanna for showing up. Always better to get it firsthand. 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

I was going to message you privately but thought I would post this to all.  Reviewing my posts over the past few days I see i have been more aggressive than normal.  I apologize. And I especially apologize to Bernard. I did step over the line I think. I recently returned from Denver.  My 87 year old father, who I am very close to, became very ill a few weeks ago and passed away on August 18th.  It seems this has impacted me emotionally more than I had realized as I was in the thick of seeing what could be done for him, which was going to be hospice but he died before we were able to move him to a hospice facility.  I was with him when he died.  I think I have been more angry than is good and I think I have let it show here. So I am very sorry for some of my comments and especially about your friend.  I hope you can accept my apology.  The same for others that I may have stepped over the line with in the past few days.

I'm very sorry for your loss Teancum. Everyone deals with grief differently. I hope you have some peace and can hold his memories close. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Hanna Seariac said:

The accusation of me being alt-right is incorrect. I'm politically liberal in a lot of ways and am to the left of Mitt Romney. I am not against the BYU Slavery project and have been actually immensely grateful for BYU's efforts to document the histories of persons of African ancestry. I've never said that I was against the BYU Slavery project. I don't run the Keeping Faith at BYU account and also didn't start it. Holding me responsible for that would be incorrect as I don't have involvement with the account. I think the alt-right is absolutely disgusting and a blight on our political system.

Welcome. Are you just passing through or are you planning to stick around for a while? 

FWIW, getting into politics here can quickly get a thread shut down. 🙂

Edited August 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Hanna Seariac]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Welcome. Are you just passing through or are you planning to stick around for a while? 

FWIW, getting into politics here can quickly get a thread shut down. Thanks 

Thanks. I might pop in and out. I'm a bit busy at this time in my life, but I do enjoy discussions like this, so I'll probably show up from time to time.

Thanks for the reminder here. I didn't really want to get into politics, I was more so responding to Duncan's accusation of me being alt-right. I won't say anything more about politics on this thread.

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:20 PM, Chum said:

A powerful tool of the adversary is to portray one uncharacteristic remark as if it represents the person. It is the nature of this method to be evil.

Very true. 

Add confirmation bias to that and...here we are, endlessly trying to accomodate endless cyber flash mobs.

 

[nuclearfuels]

1 hour ago, Hanna Seariac said:

I didn't really want to get into politics

Getting a thread shut down here or getting banned, just like getting banned, shadow-banned, or warned by Twitter, FB,etc. can only reasoably be seen as badges of honor.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Getting a thread shut down here or getting banned, just like getting banned, shadow-banned, or warned by Twitter, FB,etc. can only reasoably be seen as badges of honor.

Do you really think someone calling Joseph Smith Joe or Pres Nelson Rusty or for using vulgarity deserves a badge of honor?

[nuclearfuels]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you really think someone calling Joseph Smith Joe or Pres Nelson Rusty or for using vulgarity deserves a badge of honor?

That's not what I've done. 

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/29/2021 at 2:58 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

he did implore faculty, staff, and students to be more aware of, and more accepting of, the variety of students there, including gays and lesbians

How would this be done, unless each student advertised thier orientation? How would faculty and staff know?  

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

That's not what I've done. 

 

That is what often gets someone banned around here.