Elder Holland: BYU may need to "stand alone"

[smac97]

From this article: Elder Holland: BYU must stand ‘committed to its unique academic mission and to the church that sponsors it’

Some interesting bits:

Quote

BYU must be a university that “not only stands but stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and to the church that sponsors it,” Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said Monday to faculty and staff at the annual University Conference.

He spoke following BYU President Kevin Worthen, who announced the creation of an Office of Belonging led by a new vice president-level administrator who will join Worthen’s Cabinet, the President’s Council. The announcement came six months after it was recommended by the official campus Committee on Race, Equity & Belonging.

I hope these steps are effective.

Quote

Both men spoke about being kind to all under an umbrella of a university with a unique academic and spiritual mission, sponsored by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Elder Holland was BYU’s president from 1980-89 and is a member of its board of trustees. He said he has loved the university for 73 years and frequently showed emotion during his talk. He called for unity and peaceful processes in addressing issues on campus and spoke at length about his love and hope for LGBTQ students.

He said one of BYU’s achievements should be to stay in harmony with the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, whom he said are designated to declare church doctrine and guide BYU as its trustees. The university’s faculty and staff have unique and ongoing roles as builders of the university and defenders of the faith.

“I will go to my grave pleading that this institution not only stands but stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and to the church that sponsors it,” he said. “We hope it isn’t a surprise to you that your trustees are not deaf or blind to the feelings that swirl around marriage and the whole same-sex topic on campus. I and many of my brethren have spent more time and shed more tears on this subject than we could ever adequately convey to you this morning or any morning.

This theme of "uniqueness" is interesting to me.  

Quote

“We have spent hours discussing what the doctrine of the church can and cannot provide the individuals and families struggling over this difficult issue. So, it is with a little scar tissue of our own that we are trying to avoid — and hope all will try to avoid — language, symbols and situations that are more divisive than unifying at the time we want to show love for all of God’s children.”

He said that he and the church’s other senior leaders unequivocally love those who experience same-sex attraction, saying that the world too often has been “crushingly cruel” to them.

“Like many of you, we have spent hours with them, and wept and prayed and wept again in an effort to offer love and hope while keeping the gospel strong and the obedience to commandments evident in every individual life,” he said.

“But it will assist everyone in providing such help if things can be kept in some proportion and balance in the process,” he added. “For example, we have to be careful that love and empathy do not get interpreted as condoning and advocacy, or that orthodoxy and loyalty to principle not be interpreted as unkindness or disloyalty to people. As near as I can tell, Christ never once withheld his love from anyone, but he also never once said to anyone, ‘Because I love you, you are exempt from keeping my commandments.’ We are tasked with trying to strike that same sensitive, demanding balance in our lives.”

I think this is a substantial concern.  I think many people are imposing an unworkable expectation/requirement on the Church, namely, altering the doctrines pertaining to the Law of Chastity so that same-sex behavior is condoned / endorsed / celebrated.  

"{Christ} never once said to anyone, ‘Because I love you, you are exempt from keeping my commandments.'"  I suspect this reflects an oft-repeated request/expectation/demand that the Church capitulate on the Law of Chastity.  

Here's the interesting part:

Quote

Both Worthen and Elder Holland referred to a 1975 talk on BYU’s 100th anniversary by the late church President Spencer W. Kimball, who called for BYU’s second century to be about remaining unique while becoming an educational Everest. Faculty and staff who attended the conference Monday — thousands watched online — received a copy of the talk.

“It seems clear to me in my 73 years of loving it that BYU will become an ‘educational Mount Everest’ only to the degree it embraces its uniqueness, its singularity,” Elder Holland said.

He noted that, as the halfway point of the university’s second century approaches in 2025, church leaders will maintain that BYU will stand alone in its uniqueness if it must.

“We must have the will to stand alone, if necessary, being a university second to none in its role primarily as an undergraduate teaching institution that is unequivocally true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ,” he said. “If at a future time that mission means foregoing some professional affiliations and certifications, then so be it. There may come a day when the price we are asked to pay for such association is simply too high, too inconsistent with who we are. No one wants it to come to that, least of all me, but if it does, we will pursue our own destiny.”

That last paragraph creates a lot of questions.  What are the "professional affiliations and certifications" that are at risk? 

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[mfbukowski]

I like and endorse the Jordan Peterson quote in your siggy.

We have to be up to giving shelter with all flags flying in strength.

Time to come out of the trenches and go over the top.   Stand up or be run over.   Lead with love and stand for what's right.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That last paragraph creates a lot of questions.  What are the "professional affiliations and certifications" that are at risk

I can see the possibility that BYU’s requirements for its faculty to live by certain standards as well as control over what teachers can teach in their classes might lead to questions of accreditation or a refusal for a faculty professional organization to allow BYU professors to join, making it more difficult to get research accepted into more respected journals or to present at conferences.  If a professor was terminated due to making comments that the Church was not what it claimed it was or promoted behaviours not in accord with church chastity standards or for behaviours most not in the Churxh would see as unrelated to being able to do his job, such organizations might eventually cut ties with BYU. 
 

I am not sure how much academic freedom**** for professors impacts accreditation and such, but it could be possible that professional groups might reject any employed at BYU or any certification through BYU.  I will have to see if my prof husband can point me in the right direction as well as give his opinion on what might happen to BYU in the future. Working at UVU might give him some insight into how academic organizations treat BYU differently, if they do. 
 

While this limitation of BYU’s involvement in the academic world might happen in the future, at this point though I see it as unlikely as anything will be done that has a big effect on BYU in the near future. 

****A lot could depend on how academic freedom is measured because perceived academic freedom is pretty high at BYU iirc, which is I assume because professors felt more constrained at previous employers due to their religious status…my husband was pulled from heading a new project he had first organized and had been promised the leadership position due to another professor who wanted the position herself convincing a deanlet that as a Mormon he would not treat women fairly; women he worked with signed a letter reputing this attack, but damage was done already.  Moving to UVU where what it means to be a Latter-day Saint is much better understood has removed the stress from that thankfully…plenty of other sources of stress though.  . 

[Robert F. Smith]

50 minutes ago, smac97 said:

............: Elder Holland: BYU must stand ‘committed to its unique academic mission and to the church that sponsors it’.......................

This theme of "uniqueness" is interesting to me.  

I think this is a substantial concern.  I think many people are imposing an unworkable expectation/requirement on the Church, namely, altering the doctrines pertaining to the Law of Chastity so that same-sex behavior is condoned / endorsed / celebrated.  

"{Christ} never once said to anyone, ‘Because I love you, you are exempt from keeping my commandments.'"  I suspect this reflects an oft-repeated request/expectation/demand that the Church capitulate on the Law of Chastity.  

I'd be interested to know what priorities should be listed as most important to the Board of Trusties, and this new Committee: on Race, Equity, and Belonging.  There is nothing at all unique about "equity" and diversity now on American college campuses, and it typically means merit becomes secondary to religious, racial, gender, or ethnic identity, and brings in quotas.  "Belonging" typically means safe spaces, trigger warnings, and social grading (so no one feels left out, and so that everyone is a winner).  Forget about Lehi's Law of Opposition.

There are a number of unique and hard core academic institutions run by Jewish and Christian groups worldwide, many of them top-flight.  Since Elder Holland emphasized the undergraduate nature of BYU (despite PhDs offered in the STEM fields), sights are apparently set low enough so as not to rock the boat with strong academic programs in dangerous areas -- such as theology and religion.

Note, for example, the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of Deification being edited by Roman Catholic Scholars -- despite being a central concern of LDS theology. 

The Gregorian University in Rome is unique and fully invested in Roman Catholic theology.  The Jewish national university in Israel is one of the best in the world, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.  Both are powerful graduate research universities, something BYU simply does not aspire to.  Some Christian schools will not even accept a Mormon, such as Biola University, La Mirada, Calif. (including Talbot School of Theology).  They want no LDS infections. 

The priorities of such institutions are important since they tell us whether they stand for something fundamental, such as chastity and respectful behavior, in addition to normative academic standards.  One has to ask, for example, why is the Pope attacking parishes which want to have Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), but turning a blind eye to pedophilia among priests and monks.  What are Roman Catholic priorities?  What are LDS priorities?

50 minutes ago, smac97 said:

.............................

That last paragraph creates a lot of questions.  What are the "professional affiliations and certifications" that are at risk? ..........................

There are a number of academic standards which are demanded by accrediting agencies which regularly come up for review.  Years ago, BYU failed to make some theses and dissertations available in open stacks, and this violated a standard of the regional accrediting agency.  It also interfered with my own research on the Book of Mormon.  I complained to the accrediting agency, and soon the thesis I needed to see was available for the first time.

When I was living in Independence, Missouri, a BYU professor and his wife came there on an LDS mission.  I was annoyed that the wife thought it O.K. to check out anti-Mormon books from the local library and not return them.  She bragged about it, and her husband went along with it.

[Fair Dinkum]

He’s almost tempting those tasked with accreditation to de-certify and unaccredite BYU and I suspect they’ll take him up on his challenge 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It appears that out friend J Reuben Ciark of DEZNAT fame loved the violent images in the talk. Nice to have a dog whistle to DezNat and a shut up already faithful Latter-day Saints who share personal experiences about being gay in a commencement address:

 

 

[Fair Dinkum]

Hate breeds hate.   

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Hate breeds hate.   

Are you referring to deznat or the talk?

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

A lot could depend on how academic freedom is measured because perceived academic freedom is pretty high at BYU iirc, which is I assume because professors felt more constrained at previous employers due to their religious status…

Evergreen State College comes to mind.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bob Crockett]

I would never send my kids to an unaccredited school.  Can't transfer or go to grad school.  We are looking at the end of BYU.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

He’s almost tempting those tasked with accreditation to de-certify and unaccredite BYU and I suspect they’ll take him up on his challenge 

I rather suspect they will come to it by their own devices. 

[provoman]

2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

He’s almost tempting those tasked with accreditation to de-certify and unaccredite BYU and I suspect they’ll take him up on his challenge 

I believe in Christ, so come what may...

 

[Ipod Touch]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I like and endorse the Jordan Peterson quote in your siggy.

We have to be up to giving shelter with all flags flying in strength.

Time to come out of the trenches and go over the top.   Stand up or be run over.   Lead with love and stand for what's right.

Please stop using voice-to-text software and use your keyboard.

Your posts are almost unbearable to read these days and it is very difficult to follow your train of thought.

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Please stop using voice-to-text software and use your keyboard.

Your posts are almost unbearable to read these days and it is very difficult to follow your train of thought.

Ha, never have I ever had a hard time reading MF's posts!

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Please stop using voice-to-text software and use your keyboard.

Your posts are almost unbearable to read these days and it is very difficult to follow your train of thought.

This is a weird post. I have seen people use voice to text software badly and that doesn’t look like it.

[Ipod Touch]

Just now, The Nehor said:

This is a weird post. I have seen people use voice to text software badly and that doesn’t look like it.

Mark can correct me if I'm wrong.  But I recall him saying that he's been using this software for a while.  And if you compare his old posts to his new posts, the difference is pretty clear.  Today's posts are like bullet points with no cohesive language between thoughts.  Whereas before, Mark's writing was pretty lucid and eloquent.

[mfbukowski]

That post was as clear as can be, and no voice to text.

But I cannot type on my phone so I do use voice to text sometimes

I have only the tools available when I have time to spend here, sometimes a phone, but usually a laptop

Thanks for the compliment, but I am not a fan of yours either. If you don't understand my posts, no one is forcing you to read them.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Ha, never have I ever had a hard time reading MF's posts!

+1 Thanks

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Ha, never have I ever had a hard time reading MF's posts!

Same here.

 

[Ipod Touch]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks for the compliment, but I am not a fan of yours either.

But in fact, I am a fan or yours.  I just miss your previous lucid posting style.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Given that Holland specifically called for musket fire and denounced the flag waving at BYU, is this tweet even out of line:

 

[Tacenda]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I'd be interested to know what priorities should be listed as most important to the Board of Trusties, and this new Committee: on Race, Equity, and Belonging.  There is nothing at all unique about "equity" and diversity now on American college campuses, and it typically means merit becomes secondary to religious, racial, gender, or ethnic identity, and brings in quotas.  "Belonging" typically means safe spaces, trigger warnings, and social grading (so no one feels left out, and so that everyone is a winner).  Forget about Lehi's Law of Opposition.

There are a number of unique and hard core academic institutions run by Jewish and Christian groups worldwide, many of them top-flight.  Since Elder Holland emphasized the undergraduate nature of BYU (despite PhDs offered in the STEM fields), sights are apparently set low enough so as not to rock the boat with strong academic programs in dangerous areas -- such as theology and religion.

Note, for example, the forthcoming Oxford Handbook of Deification being edited by Roman Catholic Scholars -- despite being a central concern of LDS theology. 

The Gregorian University in Rome is unique and fully invested in Roman Catholic theology.  The Jewish national university in Israel is one of the best in the world, the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.  Both are powerful graduate research universities, something BYU simply does not aspire to.  Some Christian schools will not even accept a Mormon, such as Biola University, La Mirada, Calif. (including Talbot School of Theology).  They want no LDS infections. 

The priorities of such institutions are important since they tell us whether they stand for something fundamental, such as chastity and respectful behavior, in addition to normative academic standards.  One has to ask, for example, why is the Pope attacking parishes which want to have Traditional Latin Mass (TLM), but turning a blind eye to pedophilia among priests and monks.  What are Roman Catholic priorities?  What are LDS priorities?

There are a number of academic standards which are demanded by accrediting agencies which regularly come up for review.  Years ago, BYU failed to make some theses and dissertations available in open stacks, and this violated a standard of the regional accrediting agency.  It also interfered with my own research on the Book of Mormon.  I complained to the accrediting agency, and soon the thesis I needed to see was available for the first time.

When I was living in Independence, Missouri, a BYU professor and his wife came there on an LDS mission.  I was annoyed that the wife thought it O.K. to check out anti-Mormon books from the local library and not return them.  She bragged about it, and her husband went along with it.

Smac is there a way to view this and listen. I am reading conflicting things about it and want to judge it in context.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Smac is there a way to view this and listen. I am reading conflicting things about it and want to judge it in context.

 

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

Thanks, feeling inept today!

Reading over the TRIB article they get a comment back from Matt Easton, the BYU valedictorian two years ago, and it made me want to hear for myself. And the controversy that Elder Holland's statements may ignite or empower Deznat even more. 

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/08/23/byu-teachers-are-expected/?fbclid=IwAR2exz13DiUu__44zc3tCnpOfiit-zqCcqkwBV9DBXNwhdPryAAn8J3KN6AHere's a c/p:

Matt Easton, the gay valedictorian, was surprised and disappointed by Holland’s mention of his action.

“I am proud of what I did two years ago,” he responded Monday, “and I stand by what I said.”

His speech, including the mention of his sexual orientation, was approved by his dean two weeks in advance, Easton said from his home in Berkeley, Calif, where he is about to begin graduate school. “I wasn’t trying to grandstand or ‘commandeer’ the event. I drew on my personal experiences because they shaped my time at BYU — authenticity is not the same as ‘agenda pushing.’”

Edited August 24, 2021 by Tacenda

[smac97]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Smac is there a way to view this and listen. I am reading conflicting things about it and want to judge it in context.

A transcript of his talk: https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-jeffrey-r-holland-2021-byu-university-conference

Thanks,

-Smac