Elder Holland: BYU may need to "stand alone"

[bOObOO]

12 minutes ago, echelon said:

BYU is a business, not the church itself and as such it's not reasonable to impose it's beliefs on the school as it does its own members. No different than the hotels it owns.

Hmm.  Maybe BYU should be limited to only members of the Church.  That might solve a lot of problems.

[rongo]

14 minutes ago, echelon said:

BYU is a business, not the church itself and as such it's not reasonable to impose it's beliefs on the school as it does its own members. No different than the hotels it owns.

The hotel analogy doesn't really hold up, though. BYU makes all of its students complete the religious education hours and agree to and adhere to the honor code. The Church doesn't pretend that its hotels are sacred ground, but BYU is supposed to be a holy university with a sacred mission --- not like a hotel at all, really. 

What else can the religious class requirements be than "imposing its beliefs on the school as it does its own members?" 

BYU is, or should be, far, far more than just a business. 

[echelon]

21 minutes ago, rongo said:

The hotel analogy doesn't really hold up, though. BYU makes all of its students complete the religious education hours and agree to and adhere to the honor code. The Church doesn't pretend that its hotels are sacred ground, but BYU is supposed to be a holy university with a sacred mission --- not like a hotel at all, really. 

What else can the religious class requirements be than "imposing its beliefs on the school as it does its own members?" 

BYU is, or should be, far, far more than just a business. 

I brought up hotels because that's the strictly business side of the church which does not concern itself with the affairs of the people who work or stay there.  BYU on the other hand likes to have one foot in the church and the other in the secular/business world, imposing religious beliefs on one side and being lenient with other beliefs (e.g. word of wisdom) on the other.  Keep going down that road and one will eventually have to give way to the other.  As a school it will be far more successful as a business than as a church.

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, echelon said:

I brought up hotels because that's the strictly business side of the church which does not concern itself with the affairs of the people who work or stay there.  BYU on the other hand likes to have one foot in the church and the other in the secular/business world, imposing religious beliefs on one side and being lenient with other beliefs (e.g. word of wisdom) on the other.  Keep going down that road and one will eventually have to give way to the other.  As a school it will be far more successful as a business than as a church.

What do you prefer happens to and with BYU, long-term? Elder Holland's vision, or full embracing of secular academia (or somewhere between those points)? 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, ttribe said:

At the University level?  Not grade school.  Not Jr. High/Middle School.  Not High School.  Not a community college.

My husband at the universities he has worked at has had to keep his mouth shut about several things over the years as assumptions would be made on why he said it due to him being Latter-day Saint. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Is the Church so fragile that people freak out when someone mentions that they are gay in a commencement address?  

From Elder Holland's remarks:

Quote

In that spirit, let me go no farther before declaring unequivocally my love and that of my Brethren for those who live with this same-sex challenge and so much complexity that goes with it. Too often the world has been unkind, in many instances crushingly cruel, to these our brothers and sisters. Like many of you, we have spent hours with them, and wept and prayed and wept again in an effort to offer love and hope while keeping the gospel strong and the obedience to commandments evident in every individual life.

 

But it will assist everyone in providing such help if things can be kept in some proportion and balance in the process. For example, we have to be careful that love and empathy do not get interpreted as condoning and advocacy, or that orthodoxy and loyalty to principle not be interpreted as unkindness or disloyalty to people. As near as I can tell, Christ never once withheld His love from anyone, but He also never once said to anyone, “Because I love you, you are exempt from keeping my commandments.” We are tasked with trying to strike that same sensitive, demanding balance in our lives.

My sense is that there is often a significant issue with subtext in the traditional "coming out" narrative as to members of the Church.

The apparent subtext is, I think, something like "I am announcing I am gay, and that by this announcement I intend to let that status define me and my sexual behavior, which will now include same-sex behavior that violates the Law of Chastity."

Could you see how this subtext might be construed as problematic for a valedictory speech at a deeply religious institution?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Does the Church need to micromanage thought so much that it feels threatened if a professor has a different view about a particular doctrine?  

Did you read Elder Holland's talk?  See, e.g., this part:

Quote

Such are the experiences we hope to provide our students at BYU, though probably not always so poetically expressed. Then, imagine the pain that comes with a memo like this one I recently received. These are just a half-dozen lines from a two-page document:

“You should know,” the writer says, “that some people in the extended community are feeling abandoned and betrayed by BYU. It seems that some professors (at least the vocal ones in the media) are supporting ideas that many of us feel are contradictory to gospel principles, making it appear to be about like any other university our sons and daughters could have attended. Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school.

“Please don’t think I’m opposed to people thinking differently about policies and ideas,” the writer continues. “I’m not. But I would hope that BYU professors would be bridging those gaps between faith and intellect and would be sending out students that are ready to do the same in loving, intelligent and articulate ways. Yet, I fear that some faculty are not supportive of the Church's doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly. There are consequences to this. After having served a full-time mission and marrying her husband in the temple, a friend of mine recently left the church. In her graduation statement on a social media post, she credited {such and such a BYU program and its faculty} with the radicalizing of her attitudes and the destruction of her faith.”

Faithful Latter-day Saint parents send their kids to BYU with the expectation that the students will receive an education that is informed by, and generally congruent with, the doctrines and beliefs espoused by the Church.

Can you appreciate the feelings of betrayal that may arise if and when faculty at BYU use their position at the Church's stool to be "not supportive of the Church's doctrines and policies and choose to criticize them publicly," to do and say things that facilitate the destruction of faith?

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Are the students so fragile that anything told to them at BYU will threaten their own belief in the Church?

Oh, brother.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

What next? Telling Church members what they are allowed to read about on the internet or what books they should read?  Or what friends they should hang out with?  

Oh, brother, again.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

This is about the Church having absolute control over the narrative taught at BYU.  

Malarky.  Not having faculty members at BYU actively working against the tenets of the Church, actively working to destroy the faith of students there, is far from "having absolute control."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 24, 2021 by smac97

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

If anything Easton is living rent free in Elder Holland's mind. I had forgotten about it

So had I.  But Elder Holland is on the Board of Trustees.  He is paying attention to things that are in his wheelhouse.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

35 minutes ago, echelon said:

I brought up hotels because that's the strictly business side of the church which does not concern itself with the affairs of the people who work or stay there.  

Which is quite a different situation as compared to BYU.  Ecclesiastical endorsements?  Religious courses?  Devotionals?  No alcohol or smoking?  

35 minutes ago, echelon said:

BYU on the other hand likes to have one foot in the church and the other in the secular/business world,

Yes.  Is that a problem, in your view?

35 minutes ago, echelon said:

imposing religious beliefs on one side and being lenient with other beliefs (e.g. word of wisdom) on the other. 

Well, no.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, echelon said:

BYU is a business, not the church itself and as such it's not reasonable to impose it's beliefs on the school as it does its own members. No different than the hotels it owns.

The Church heavily subsidizes BYU and the students’ tuition who attend it. As a “business”, I believe the Church puts in more than it gets out. That would be comparable to requiring the hotel guests to cover less than half their bill iirc.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

As a “business”, I believe the Church puts in more than it gets out. 

I would be astounded if church leaders have not done an return on investment analysis of its universities. I works be equally astounded if the return in increased faithfulness and hence increased tithing funds didn’t show a net positive return. 

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

My husband has at the university had to keep his mouth shut about several things over the years as assumptions would be made on why he said it due to him being Latter-day Saint. 

I taught full-time at a university for five years, as both an adjunct (3 classes per semester) and as a guest instructor (5 classes per semester).  I felt fairly stifled in what I could say, but in a way that, in the end, I did not really mind.  I sensed that leftist/progressives have free reign to do and say pretty much anything to inject their personal opinions/politics into class discussions.  Having some disquiet about that, and being sociopolitically conservative, I opted to stick with the subject matter and keep digressions about sociopolitical controversies to a minimum.

One of the classes I taught was an "Introduction to Law," part of which covered the Bill of Rights.  It was always interesting to watch the, shall we say, inconsistent attitudes that arose from those discussions.  Many students really liked Free Speech, Free Press, Freedom of Assembly, etc., but were often less keen on Free Exercise.  But what really brought out disagreement between students was the Second Amendment.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Church heavily subsidizes BYU and the students’ tuition who attend it. As a “business”, I believe the Church puts in more than it gets out. That would be comparable to requiring the hotel guests to cover less than half their bill iirc.

A good portion is from donations, my former bishop works in the church's philanthropies department. https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/byu

Edited August 24, 2021 by Tacenda

[Calm]

Just now, Tacenda said:

A good portion is from donations, my former bishop works in the churches philanthropies department. https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/byu

Huge portion.
 

What hotel gets donations to keep it going on a regular basis? (I can see a historic hotel about to be torn down getting donations to renovate while maintaining its historic side, but don’t see it as likely if it operates as a business and not a charity, that it would continue to do so).

Edited August 24, 2021 by Calm

[echelon]

36 minutes ago, rongo said:

What do you prefer happens to and with BYU, long-term? Elder Holland's vision, or full embracing of secular academia (or somewhere between those points)? 

I'm not sure why Holland felt like BYU has to single itself out when the issues he raised are not with the school itself but with the Church, as though if Church is going to suffer, he's going to take BYU down with it.  Personally I find BYU as progressive and in step with the issues facing all educational institutions and prefer it continues with how it is operating today. 

If it comes down to losing its accreditation, the Church will do more good for mankind by embracing secular academia and offering an education that while available to all, gives its members a reasonable chance to provide and to be influential in the field they choose to excel in.  
 

[Canadiandude]

Of all the BYU alumni to problematize Elder Holland chose Matt Easton and not the ex-assistant attorney general for Alaska?

I also have strong feelings about the references to musket-firing, as though there exists acceptable targets for that kind of imagery. Deznat is already using the discourse in some pretty scary ways.

On the other hand, reading many peoples’ reactions to the speech has some heartfelt moments too.

History will look kindly on Dr. Benjamin Park.

 

[echelon]

29 minutes ago, smac97 said:

1 hour ago, echelon said:

BYU on the other hand likes to have one foot in the church and the other in the secular/business world,

Yes.  Is that a problem, in your view?

As we can see from the OP, it is.  Holland is saying that if the Church cannot teach it's doctrine in BYU in a way that is acceptable to the secular world, the school will have to risk it's status among other institutions.

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, echelon said:

I'm not sure why Holland felt like BYU has to single itself out when the issues he raised are not with the school itself but with the Church,

Well, he did say this:

Quote

I said then and I say now that if we are an extension of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, taking a significant amount of sacred tithes and other precious human resources, all of which might well be expended in other worthy causes, surely our integrity demands that our lives be absolutely consistent with and characteristic of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. At a university there will always be healthy debate regarding a whole syllabus full of issues. But until “we all come [to] the unity of the faith, and . . . [have grown to] the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,”[7] our next best achievement will be to stay in harmony with the Lord’s anointed, those whom He has designated to declare Church doctrine and to guide Brigham Young University as its trustees.

We cannot completely conflate the Church and BYU, of course, but neither can we completely differentiate them, either.

17 minutes ago, echelon said:

Personally I find BYU as progressive and in step with the issues facing all educational institutions and prefer it continues with how it is operating today. 

Not sure what you mean here.  As Elder Holland put it:

Quote

My beloved brothers and sisters, “a house divided against itself . . . cannot stand,”[12] and I will go to my grave pleading that this institution not only stands but stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and to the Church that sponsors it.

Colleges are a dime a dozen.  I want BYU to be unique and distinctive.

17 minutes ago, echelon said:

If it comes down to losing its accreditation, the Church will do more good for mankind by embracing secular academia and offering an education that while available to all, gives its members a reasonable chance to provide and to be influential in the field they choose to excel in.  

BYU has been doing that for a very long time.

It looks like some folks want to punish the Church for its doctrines, or coerce it to abandon those doctrines, and so are using threats about BYU's accreditation to achieve those objectives.

I find that both immoral and unamerican.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

Of all the BYU alumni to problematize Elder Holland chose Matt Easton and not the ex-assistant attorney general for Alaska?

He wasn't speaking at a graduation ceremony at BYU at the time.

8 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

I also have strong feelings about the references to musket-firing, as though there exists acceptable targets for that kind of imagery. Deznat is already using the discourse in some pretty scary ways.

C'mon.  "Muskets?" Are you seriously suggesting that Elder Holland is calling for violence of any kind?

It's pure metaphor.  Elder Holland even uses the phrase "metaphorical muskets."

8 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

On the other hand, reading many peoples’ reactions to the speech has some heartfelt moments too.

History will look kindly on Dr. Benjamin Park.

History will likely not give much attention to his pearl-clutching.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

It hasn't, yet, not outright, but I have concerns that storm clouds are looming on the horizon. Our family lost interest in BYU over these concerns (my father and I graduated from there, and I have fond memories of BYU in the 90s), and children from multiple friends of ours have returned changed by their professors (some have left the Church, and others have developed philosophies hostile to the Church). Elder Holland acknowledged this with the talk itself (why else talk about the need for BYU to see that it doesn't go down this road?), and also when he specifically said, 

---

"Imagine the pain that comes with a memo like this one I recently received. These are just a half-dozen lines from a two-page document:

“You should know,” the writer says, “that some people in the extended community are feeling abandoned and betrayed by BYU. It seems that some professors (at least the vocal ones in the media) are supporting ideas that many of us feel are contradictory to gospel principles, making it appear to be about like any other university our sons and daughters could have attended. Several parents have said they no longer want to send their children here or donate to the school.

 

I've been lurking over at LDSFreedomForum the past couple of weeks, mostly out of insatiable curiosity.  Your rhetoric sounds a lot like theirs. 

 

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

My husband at the universities he has worked at has had to keep his mouth shut about several things over the years as assumptions would be made on why he said it due to him being Latter-day Saint. 

With respect, I'm not referring to the politics of working at a University; those dynamics are anywhere humans are part of organizations.  I'm talking about the academic freedom associated with research and following the evidence wherever it takes us, irrespective of preconceived ideas.  It's that tightrope BYU and the church have been walking for some time; the September Seven are an example.

[ttribe]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

C'mon.  "Muskets?" Are you seriously suggesting that Elder Holland is calling for violence of any kind?

It's pure metaphor.  Elder Holland even uses the phrase "metaphorical muskets."

Using such metaphors in today's climate is, at best, unwise.  There is a growing body of (well-armed) fringe literalists (e.g. DezNat) who are waiting with bated breath for just this kind of rhetoric.

Edited August 24, 2021 by ttribe

[HappyJackWagon]

BYU is forever emblazoned on my resume.  My U of U friends used to tell me I should be embarrassed I was going to BYU and I now I actually am. I hate it when a Ute is right about anything  

[SteveO]

Does my heart good to hear this.  Excellent remarks.

[Canadiandude]

41 minutes ago, smac97 said:

He wasn't speaking at a graduation ceremony at BYU at the time.

C'mon.  "Muskets?" Are you seriously suggesting that Elder Holland is calling for violence of any kind?

It's pure metaphor.  Elder Holland even uses the phrase "metaphorical muskets."

History will likely not give much attention to his pearl-clutching.

Thanks,

-Smac

You know darn well how Deznat have been using this ‘metaphorical’ language and if you don’t you’re deliberately putting your head in the sand.

Furthermore there was nothing wrong with the man coming out in his valedictory speech and he hardly spent any time upon the matter, and theres no policy stating that a person can’t identify as 2SLGBTQ+ and be a practicing church member.

But this kinda reveals that you really do think of the valedictorian as a primary source of the conflict rather than the those that hate and marginalize him and those of us who are like him.

Also, regardless as to the venue are you seriously suggesting that the valedictorian’s discourse is more dangerous and harmful to the church and BYU than Cicotte’s??

You and many church-associated actors have been pearl-clutching as a means to  problematize and downplay the importance of 2SLGBTQ+ rights and equality for years.

It’s laughable that you would turn around and act as though 2SLGBTQ+ folx and allies cannot clutch our own pearls and speak of virtue- and its dearth.

-and yes, there’s been plenty of good ink well-dedicated to the Dr. Lowry Nelson’s of our church, who had the courage to know virtue and sense it’s dearth prior to prophetic revelation in justification of their heterodox concerns.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Canadiandude
Grammar

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

If anything Easton is living rent free in Elder Holland's mind. I had forgotten about it

Maybe because you might have a different level of accountability for the future of BYU and the Church?

Edited August 24, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

You know darn well how Deznat have been using this ‘metaphorical’ language and if you don’t you’re deliberately putting your head in the sand.

I invite you to review my posts about DezNat.

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

Furthermore there was nothing wrong with the man coming out in his valedictory speech and he hardly spent any time upon the matter, and theres no policy stating that a person can’t identify as 2SLGBTQ+ and be a practicing church member.

I'm fairly ambivalent on that issue.

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

But this kinda reveals that you really do think of the valedictorian as a primary source of the conflict

No, it doesn't.

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

rather than the those that hate and marginalize him and those of us who are like him.

Who are you referencing here?

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

Also, regardless as to the venue

Venue is a fairly pivotal distinction.

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

are you seriously suggesting that the valedictorian’s discourse is more dangerous and harmful to the church and BYU than Cicotte’s??

No..

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

You and many church-associated actors have been pearl-clutching as a means to  problematize and downplay the importance of 2SLGBTQ+ rights and equality for years.

Not sure what you are referencing here.

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

It’s laughable that you would turn around and act as though 2SLGBTQ+ folx and allies cannot clutch our own pearls and speak of virtue- and its dearth.

Not sure what you are saying here, either.

38 minutes ago, Canadiandude said:

-and yes, there’s been plenty of good ink well-dedicated to the Dr. Lowry Nelson’s of our church, who had the courage to know virtue and sense it’s dearth prior to prophetic revelation in justification of their heterodox concerns.

I've said nothing about Dr. Lowry Nelson.

I also question the legitimacy of equating the Church's Priesthood Ban (which lacked any revelatory provenance) with the Law of Chastity.  But that's probably a topic for another thread.

Thanks,

-Smac