News Article Titled "New Movement of Religious Extremists" has picture of Book of Mormon as Thumbnail

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

She dropped off the radar of mainstream (her book had been the top seller in the Mormon market) after the spurious materials thing.  Her books got pulled from Deseretbook iirc, though I vaguely remember the overstock lingered a bit at Seagull.  Could be wrong.

I find it disturbing that a book by a kook would be “the top seller in the Mormon market.” How long did it occupy that spot?

[rongo]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Not publicly at conference (a public statement was made when the story of the spurious materials list was released). Rowe’s book was named in the spurious materials for CES. Can’t remember if her name as author was included. 

Sure, she was named in the CES book list, and excommunicated (I've been consulted multiple times about dealing with tent city and AVOW flare-ups in local areas), but my point is that the Brethren never name names in General Conference --- or really any venue, from the Brethren, as such. CES sending out lists of non-approved books is several degrees "softer" than that. They studiously avoid being more specific than that (or white supremacy, energy healing, etc.). 

I would be stunned if any of the Brethren ever mention the word deznat. 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

This news article popped up in my yahoo news feed this morning, but what caught my eye wasn't the headline, but the picture attached to it:  someone holding a Book of Mormon.

The talking points at the end of the article deal with how the leaders of the church should handle this movement, and that's what I'm specifically wondering about in this thread.  What should our leaders do?  What shouldn't they do?  What is the best way for us as members and for the church to distance ourselves from these idiots who are dragging the church through the mud?

No politics. 

I would say to simply call out instances of "an ultra-conservative [or liberal, or otherwise "ultra-"] vision of Mormon belief." "Ultra-" or "extremist" is not good for anyone. 

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I find it disturbing that a book by a kook would be “the top seller in the Mormon market.” How long did it occupy that spot?

Chad Daybell told her what to write more or less from the way she described it and she just borrowed ideas from everyone else getting attention in the AVOW group, but yeah, it is disturbing.  Also disturbing is her book was most likely successful because of the previous success of Visions of Glory by Pontius and ‘Spencer’.  I don’t remember how long it was up there, but I do remember being surprised at its staying power; Visions was published in 2012.  Pontius was already a successful writer at that point, he wasn’t always so off kilter, we had some of his earlier stuff at FAIR before Visions showed up.  I doubt Visions would have been a hit without Pontius pushing it (he was the transcriber, he didn’t have the visions).  Julie Rowe first published in May 2014.  I don’t think her book popularity lasted as long.  Iirc, when she wrote her second book it had started going down, so Daybell pushed her to produce another which was mostly repetition from what I heard. Her second book was published the same year, Oct 2014

Spencer never wrote anything himself, at least like Visions and Pontius died not long after it got popular, which left the hole that Daybell filled with Rowe.

The spurious materials memo was issued in August 2015, so her top or close to popularity lasted at least a year it would seem.

I don’t have a clue how you could find out how long those books were bestsellers….maybe contact the LDS Booksellers Association?

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Chad Daybell told her what to write more or less from the way she described it and she just borrowed ideas from everyone else getting attention in the AVOW group, but yeah, it is disturbing.  Also disturbing is her book was most likely successful because of the previous success of Visions of Glory by Pontius and ‘Spencer’.  I don’t remember how long, but Visions was published in 2012.  Pontius was already a successful writer at that point, he wasn’t always so off kilter, we had some of his earlier stuff at FAIR before Visions showed up.  I doubt Visions would have been a hit without Pontius pushing it (he was the transcriber, he didn’t have the visions).  

I’m actually more worried about “Visions of Glory” and the Julie Rowe sort of stuff gaining a following among our people than I am about the DezNat movement. Maybe it’s because I’ve actually seen “Visions of Glory” penetrating my circle of acquaintances; not so, thus far, with DezNat. And “Visions of Glory” gained some respect — albeit undeserved — among some in our mainstream. I haven’t yet noticed that with DezNat. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m actually more worried about “Visions of Glory” and the Julie Rowe sort of stuff gaining a following among our people than I am about the DezNat movement. Maybe it’s because I’ve actually seen “Visions of Glory” penetrating my circle of acquaintances; not so, thus far, with DezNat. And “Visions of Glory” gained some respect — albeit undeserved — among some in our mainstream. I haven’t yet noticed that with DezNat. 

I would tend to agree, except it may be more appealing to the younger crowd who loves memes.  To me it is just ugly and loud…in appearance and tone, I feel like I am at a football game stuck in a group of out of town over the top rabid fans intend on beating down the locals.  Visions was at least quiet, no pictures, lol, though there was definitely a gossipy, voyeuristic quality to it…he was reveling in the description of his doctor’s office where he was allegedly dumped rather after having a massive heart attack or something that had all the staff panicking around him…who then left him unattended in an office…the furniture was complaining about the adultery of his doctor and a nurse, iirc…I am going off of memory and so don’t assume this is accurate, I think I finally threw away the copy I had given me this April as no one had asked about it in ages, lol.

Then there was the weird celebrity insider vibe to it, Spencer was to be given the office next to Jesus’ office in the temple, for example. 
 

I think that was the biggest appeal of Visions as opposed to other similar NDE books, the inside, celebrity knowledge feel to it.  I am wondering if it shifted the way NDE hedge prophets tell their stories now.  That would be an interesting literature study,

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

would tend to agree, except it may be more appealing to the younger crowd who loves memes.  To me it is just ugly and loud…in appearance and tone, I feel like I am at a football game stuck in a group of out of town over the top rabid fans intend on beating down the locals.  Visions was at least quiet, no pictures, lol, though there was definitely a gossipy, voyeuristic quality to it …

Sometimes, the quiet, gossipy stuff can be more harmful in its subtlety and insidiousness than the loud and bombastic. 
 

What bothered me about the “Visions of Glory” phenomenon is that supposedly mature and seasoned Church members were being taken in by it. Aren’t age and experience supposed to bring a measure of wisdom?

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sometimes, the quiet, gossipy stuff can be more harmful in its subtlety and insidiousness than the loud and bombastic. 
 

What bothered me about the “Visions of Glory” phenomenon is that supposedly mature and seasoned Church members were being taken in by it. Aren’t age and experience supposed to bring a measure of wisdom?

I get the desire to understand the mysteries very well…Though this comes across like a potato chip and McDonald’s chicken nugget version rather than meat and potatoes. 
 

What bothers me about it is its appeal creates a smug, I know the secret, self righteous in group mentality. It encourages division under the guise of caring about people. 
 

It turns the Gospel into a place of fear rather than peace. Massive racism as well.

Rowe gets worse. It is North Korea*** iirc that invades the US when the president calls in UN troops to deal with the crisis created by massive earthquakes.   It works very well for white nationalism, imo. 

***Have read all of Visions, though not all at once as I couldn’t stomach it. Have only read quotes from Rowe. It is apparently an alliance of Russia, China, and North Korea which invaded. I checked to make sure as I can’t help but laugh at it being North Korea. It wouldn’t have enough troops to do so and would be focusing on South Korea first and that area first. 
 

added:  in the racist sense, Spencer and Rowe’s is cut from the same cloth as Deznat, acting as if it is promoting the Gospel and bringing Zion together when it is more fear against nonwhites/Asians who are then overcome and the whites go off to rescue the world including the more uncivilized native populations while being able to return to their pure homes at the end of the day through magic portals and such. I probably shouldn’t make that criticism without checking the book and online sources, but it is a very strong impression so I think I will trust it. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

Found this about the popularity of her books, though I wouldn’t trust anything Daybell says. And his all time book distribution records were probably low even if he had some mildly successful fiction books, iirc. 
 

https://wheatandtares.org/2019/06/05/end-times-visionary-julie-rowe-excommunicated/

Quote

By August 2015, Julie’s books had been featured in 13 straight Seagull Book catalogs, which is almost unheard of.

Also about Visions of Glory

Quote

” In January 2014, emeritus BYU professor D. Kelly Ogden wrote an article about the book for Meridian Magazine. He noted, “Speaking with the publisher early in December 2013, I learned that over eighty thousand copies had already been sold, and it is possible that the total exceeded one hundred thousand copies by Christmas. It appears to be a sensation.” It’s interesting to note that the apologetic site FairMormon began sounding alarm bells about Visions of Glory as early as May 2013.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I get the desire to understand the mysteries very well…Though this comes across like a potato chip and McDonald’s chicken nugget version rather than meat and potatoes. 

I think it’s worse than that. I think it’s like tainted, poisonous food. 
 

It reminds me of the incident in Doctrine and Covenants 28, when Hiram Page had found a purported seer stone and was receiving bogus revelations through it and promulgating them to the Church when he did not possess the authority or the keys to do so. 
 

Such things are potentially harmful to the Church because of the confusion and falsehood they subject the members to and because of the undermining of priesthood authority. 

See this review on the FAIR website, which also draws the comparison with the Hiram Page incident:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/archive/publications/spencers-visions-of-glory

Edited August 10, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Possibly.  I think it was more lust, greed, and pride that led to it and the weird beliefs.  I think Daybell altered the beliefs he pushed to justify his philandering and removal of her kids and his wife.  She wasn’t the only one he used the “you were my wife in a previous life” line on.  And the closest friend describes the beliefs as getting more extreme after the adultery, at least emotional, if not physical, had started.   I don’t even know if he believes them given how he coached Rowe on what to write in her book.  My bet is he doesn’t believe, but she does as long as they are what she wants to hear.

The only True Believer IMO was her brother, Alex, and he didn’t sound particularly devoted to anything but his sister.  His lifestyle was not temple worthy as far as I can tell.

Daybell had used his visions to manipulate his late wife for years.  Her grandmother appeared to him to tell her she was spending too much time on fun and needed to redevote herself to her family, he had a vision they needed to move to .Idaho away from her family and closer to his group that fawned on him.

 LVD had emptied Charles’ business account once already to fund her trip to Hawaii on her own.  There was a million dollar life insurance policy LVD thought was coming to her and more than likely CD knew about.  He also raised his wife’s insurance to the max shortly before she died.  And no harm came to the adult kids, just the two that would have required a significant part of the insurance money (she collected SS checks from the government for both after they died) and attention.  Tylee was a witness to the murder of Charles Vallow and was 16/almost 17 when killed, old enough to start asking for the money from her inheritance from her dad (LVD’s 3rd husband), money that LVD had put in her own account.  Once Tylee, the live in babysitter of JJ, a high needs child, was dead, hardly surprising JJ died a week later iirc.  LVD was reported by her stepsons to be off running around leaving the kids to care for themselves even before she went bonkers.

Wow, that is a fine summation for the prosecution.  For Chad at least, the Jury will have no problem returning a verdict of guilty.  Reminds me of Jim Jones.

[Navidad]

18 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Do - ignore them as much as possible while making a simple statement about how we believe we should be as nice as possible to everybody, even when we don't want to talk about something specifically.

Not do - encourage them to not harass or belittle other people, even when others believe what they believe is wrong.

As to the first statement - I would encourage all of us not to just be nice, but to be kind. Big difference
As to the second - I am not sure what you are saying. How about we all agree not to harass or belittle anyone for any reason, especially when we think we are right and the other is wrong! OK?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wow, that is a fine summation for the prosecution.  For Chad at least, the Jury will have no problem returning a verdict of guilty.  Reminds me of Jim Jones.

There are two phone calls Daybell was recorded on, one shortly before they found the kids’ bodies where he was talking with LVD and another where she and him were trying to convince her best friend everything was okay, after she had realized something was horribly wrong after he called to tell her not to answer the phone as the police might be calling her and LVD asked her to lie about having JJ, including iirc telling to go the movie Frozen and take pictures of the kids running around as if JJ was one of them (my memory is a bit vague on the last detail, need to check).  Both times, she is the much stronger lead.  In the first, he sounds Iike a depressed little boy who knows he is about to get called into talk to the principal while she is acting like his mother, consoling him.  She is in jail at that point.  Obviously they know they are being recorded.  She asks him what she can do to help.  He doesn’t really respond to that, he does tell her to talk to the lawyer who at that time represented them both.  She suggests she pray for him. She goes to the spiritual, he is like meh.

 She is pretty upbeat, chipper, has energy in her voice; he is completely drained.  At that point I am thinking “she could be believing his deception that she is a goddess, but he sure doesn’t, he feels the doom falling upon him”.

 I think she was upbeat on the phone, in her hearings because she saw herself and him as invincible.  She is currently judged as incompetent.  I am thinking that is because she is delusional and can’t help with forming a rational defense or the reality hit her finally and caused a mental breakdown.  It is reported she spends all her time reading scriptures, praying, and was talking to Daybell daily, so he was able to continue handing her the bull.  But from her behaviour from the time she left high school till now, she comes across as manipulative and a con artist marrying one husband to escape home immediately after high school, then dumping him, rinse repeat 3 more times…the con is that everyone was saying she was a great mom, when she was using the kids for revenge against her third husband as well as to cut ties between her fourth husband and his exwife and their kids, even—guessing here on my part based on reports of the divorce/child custody case—setting her own young son up as both abuse victim and a sex offender, I am guessing the latter to freak out the exwife who would then supposedly not allow her boys to come over (she knew a camera was in her daughter’s room and sent her son in as well as the stepsons got porn sent to them from his phone; he was a young teen at the time and Tylee was 4 or 5 iirc).  
 

Her family has a history of mental disturbances, her dad was heavy into sovereign nation type of stuff, accused of practicing law without a license, my memory says he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, but that could be speculation I am remembering as fact.  But I have read some weird law appeals he did on another daughter’s behalf, who was slowly killing herself by bizarre health obsessions interfering with her own diabetes treatment and damaging her young daughter, who was losing her teeth due to malnutrition when the dad took her and took off….but the parents were backing the sister in all of this health stuff and claimed her doctor was also backing her as she was in and out of the hospital.  The sister eventually died from diabetes complications with just her brother, Alex, as company while the rest of the family was in .Hawaii.  Who leaves their kid when they are that sick?  And her brother was apparently using her credit card to buy pizza a couple of hours after reporting her death, not criminal but creepy….flash forward to him hitting Tacotime or some place like that after burying one of the kids.

And her mom and other sister in an interview on a national show are going on about how well they know her because they are so close as a family and then the sister mentions she hasn’t been to any of Lori’s weddings (5 by then) and the mother turns and mocks her because she got invited to one iirc.  It is just one craziness after another around her, so I do think she likely has major mental issues and problems with reality.
 

 The mom and sister were also going on about how she had always been a faithful, typical Latter-day Saint iirc (that might have been a friend), but she married one nonmember after another.  That is not typical behaviour…4 husbands with Chad as number 5.  I think Charles converted from Catholicism, so was closest to typical and lasted the longest (12 years iirc) and was the richest.  Good looking and very fit. But the best friend reported she picked at him a lot, not satisfied with what he did for her.  I can see her thinking he was to invested in being a father and a good employer (when she emptied his bank account, he was most worried about paying his employees).  She paid the bills and spent the money, it is reported.  Prior to killing him, she is spending 8 hours a day at the temple, but she also is telling her friend she isn’t wearing her garments anymore as she has been translated and doesn’t need then anymore.  And she is marrying Chad at the temple with Moroni giving her away (don’t know if he was there as an angel or if another friend was supposedly his reincarnation) and Christ as witness. And checking the amount of life insurance he has and changing his password apparently thinking he wouldn’t be able to access the account to change the beneficiary…but he just called to do it.  Both of them are, of course, married to others at that time when they went to the temple together.  And the relationship is open in front of the in group and they are walking around the BYU track hands all over each other, so he is delusional about not getting caught.

Otoh, CD takes the time to lie to a woman sitting next to him apparently about helping a friend build a house or move on one of his flights between there and his home in Idaho (this may be a false claim) and he has Lori send him a fake letter from Charles asking for help to write a book to deceive Tammy (documented by cops), so while she is bragging to Charles she can kill him anytime she wants to because she is a goddess, Chad is making very down to earth lies to cover his tracks…and Charles dies a few days after he threatens to contact Tammy to tell her about the affair.  Chad even denies knowing Lori very well to the cops in Idaho when he encounters them at Lori’s apartment complex.  They know already he has married her in Hawaii iirc.

Where it counts though, with the cops in Arizona when Charles is telling them she is loco and tries to get her committed, she acts well enough the victim, he is the one with the problems, he stole her purse and she is reporting him because of the advice of a cop friend.  
 

I need to listen to the post murder interviews with the cops, I haven’t been able to bring myself to do that after seeing the video of Charles pleading for help and the cops are obviously thinking ‘this is domestic crap, they need couples counseling,  not cops’.  I have seen her talking to the cops outside the townhouse after Charles is killed and they had to have thought something was off because she is cracking a joke about what the neighbors must think of them when one walks by.

Anyway, what it all comes down to is he seems relatively grounded in reality, though foolish in his games of deception, a clumsy con man…otoh she knows she needs to con the cops, she is not bragging about being a goddess to them, but portraying herself as the wronged wife of a man with a violent temper.  But with Chad and her friend, she is quoting scripture right and left and talking prayers and temple attendance.  So I am guessing that he used the man of vision stuff to attract attention and get money and she showed up, at which point he told her anything to suck her in while she talked herself into believing so she too could get what she wanted.  But she was as dominating on her side of things as he was on his I am guessing because there is a big difference in how he looked married to Tammy—dumpy, poor haircut, not great fitting shirts—and how he looked after marriage to a very appearance conscious Lori.  She had him on a diet and gave him a more attractive haircut and in style clothing that fit.  And they were in her dream paradise, Hawaii, in her old stomping grounds, even going to her former ward, rather than somewhere they were unknown.

I am debating whether to dump this as too much speculation and rambling, but think I will leave it up to see how much gets confirmed later on either in the trial or the books to come (know of two planned ones so far).  Added:  thinking this was in Daybell thread…may switch it after some sleep.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

I think it is not possible to discuss such groups in the Church and avoid mentioning politics. So much of our everyday interactions and activities are now infused with political rancor. Now it’s springing up in the Church.

How should the Church respond? I am reminded of Umberto Eco’s masterpiece The Name of the Rose. Eco describes the interplay of politics, theology, dogma, heresy, division, fanaticism, censorship, suppression, secrecy, etc., in the medieval Catholic Church.  in the end, no one wins. Perhaps that could be a warning for us?

Edited August 11, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[2BizE]

It seems to me that these Dez Nat folks are trying to return Mormonism back to its roots. The Church and the BoM are undeniably built on a foundation of white supremacy. 

[Metis_LDS]

25 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

It seems to me that these Dez Nat folks are trying to return Mormonism back to its roots. The Church and the BoM are undeniably built on a foundation of white supremacy. 

Well with perhaps some lamanite blood in my veins I would say maybe that's half true for the BOM.   😉

Edited August 10, 2021 by Metis_LDS
added emoji

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sometimes, the quiet, gossipy stuff can be more harmful in its subtlety and insidiousness than the loud and bombastic. 
 

What bothered me about the “Visions of Glory” phenomenon is that supposedly mature and seasoned Church members were being taken in by it. Aren’t age and experience supposed to bring a measure of wisdom?

While visiting my FIL at the hospital a few years ago, my nephew on my husband's side was there and mentioned he was reading "Visions of Glory", he was in his late twenties or early thirties. I was surprised because we had been discussing that book on this board. And he also followed it up with saying how many guns he's accumulated and thinking the world probably wouldn't be around in 5 years. He was a divorced young man and acted like he could care less to start a life or find a wife or have children. So that book really didn't help him. But luckily he did marry later on, no kids, but she was older and brought her own kids to the marriage. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

It seems to me that these Dez Nat folks are trying to return Mormonism back to its roots. The Church and the BoM are undeniably built on a foundation of white supremacy. 

 

51 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Well with perhaps some lamanite blood in my veins I would say maybe that's half true for the BOM.   😉

We're just going to ignore that “all are alike unto God” stuff, then?

[bOObOO]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

As to the first statement - I would encourage all of us not to just be nice, but to be kind. Big difference
As to the second - I am not sure what you are saying. How about we all agree not to harass or belittle anyone for any reason, especially when we think we are right and the other is wrong! OK?

Yep, pretty much the same as what I meant.  Nice and kind mean pretty much the same thing to me, and I like to be nice to others even when others don't agree with me or what I believe, not so much especially.

[Chaos]

On 8/9/2021 at 12:13 PM, Bob Crockett said:

My post speaks for itself.  Report me if you're displeased.  I think you're displeased with all my posts, even though I'm a conservative member, just like you.  I just listen to reason.

The cited article suggests Mormons are right wing fringe types, when they aren't.  I don't know about 2020 but in 2016 the percentage of voters coming out for Trump in Utah was much lower than surrouding red states.  In my California stake we have many who are rabid Trump supporters and ignore all reason and persuasion to the contrary, but we also have many conservatives who are not and oppose him.  

When you include politician's names you are bringing up politics. Stop it if you want to stay in the thread.

[Ipod Touch]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m actually more worried about “Visions of Glory” and the Julie Rowe sort of stuff gaining a following among our people than I am about the DezNat movement.

I've seen some in my extended family get sucked in by Julie Rowe and others.  But they are the "usual suspects" so to speak.  They tend to be attracted to gospel mysteries etc.

Mainstream LDS tend to be stable, moderate lot.  I can't imagine that nuts like Rowe could gain a following from any significant portion of mainstream members.

Quote

I haven’t yet noticed that with DezNat. 

My sense is that DezNat tends to attract younger men with political angst of some kind.  Most of it is on Twitter.  So if aren't looking at tweets, you won't see DezNat.

But I also don't think DezNat would ever become mainstream.  One reason it is so rough and crude is due to internet anonymity.  Would DezNat supporters be so bold if everyone knew who they were?  I doubt it.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Ipod Touch

[Fair Dinkum]

On 8/9/2021 at 9:14 AM, bluebell said:

This news article popped up in my yahoo news feed this morning, but what caught my eye wasn't the headline, but the picture attached to it:  someone holding a Book of Mormon.

The talking points at the end of the article deal with how the leaders of the church should handle this movement, and that's what I'm specifically wondering about in this thread.  What should our leaders do?  What shouldn't they do?  What is the best way for us as members and for the church to distance ourselves from these idiots who are dragging the church through the mud?

No politics. 

I fail to see the point of your angst.  There is a uber right wing orthodox Mormon group who espouses white supremacy, anti LGBTQ+ and other positions traditionally supported by the church. Some times it's not fun to look into the mirror.  The image you get back might be scary.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 8/9/2021 at 5:50 PM, Ipod Touch said:

This is hot nonsense

It could be that Teddy is being both sarcastic and ironic.  Then again . . .

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

There are two phone calls Daybell was recorded on, one shortly before they found the kids’ bodies where he was talking with LVD and another where she and him were trying to convince her best friend everything was okay, after she had realized something was horribly wrong after he called to tell her not to answer the phone as the police might be calling her and LVD asked her to lie about having JJ, including iirc telling to go the movie Frozen and take pictures of the kids running around as if JJ was one of them (my memory is a bit vague on the last detail, need to check).  Both times, she is the much stronger lead.  In the first, he sounds Iike a depressed little boy who knows he is about to get called into talk to the principal while she is acting like his mother, consoling him.  She is in jail at that point.  Obviously they know they are being recorded.  She asks him what she can do to help.  He doesn’t really respond to that, he does tell her to talk to the lawyer who at that time represented them both.  She suggests she pray for him. She goes to the spiritual, he is like meh.

 She is pretty upbeat, chipper, has energy in her voice; he is completely drained.  At that point I am thinking “she could be believing his deception that she is a goddess, but he sure doesn’t, he feels the doom falling upon him”.

 I think she was upbeat on the phone, in her hearings because she saw herself and him as invincible.  She is currently judged as incompetent.  I am thinking that is because she is delusional and can’t help with forming a rational defense or the reality hit her finally and caused a mental breakdown.  It is reported she spends all her time reading scriptures, praying, and was talking to Daybell daily, so he was able to continue handing her the bull.  But from her behaviour from the time she left high school till now, she comes across as manipulative and a con artist marrying one husband to escape home immediately after high school, then dumping him, rinse repeat 3 more times…the con is that everyone was saying she was a great mom, when she was using the kids for revenge against her third husband as well as to cut ties between her fourth husband and his exwife and their kids, even—guessing here on my part based on reports of the divorce/child custody case—setting her own young son up as both abuse victim and a sex offender, I am guessing the latter to freak out the exwife who would then supposedly not allow her boys to come over (she knew a camera was in her daughter’s room and sent her son in as well as the stepsons got porn sent to them from his phone; he was a young teen at the time and Tylee was 4 or 5 iirc).  
 

Her family has a history of mental disturbances, her dad was heavy into sovereign nation type of stuff, accused of practicing law without a license, my memory says he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, but that could be speculation I am remembering as fact.  But I have read some weird law appeals he did on another daughter’s behalf, who was slowly killing herself by bizarre health obsessions interfering with her own diabetes treatment and damaging her young daughter, who was losing her teeth due to malnutrition when the dad took her and took off….but the parents were backing the sister in all of this health stuff and claimed her doctor was also backing her as she was in and out of the hospital.  The sister eventually died from diabetes complications with just her brother, Alex, as company while the rest of the family was in .Hawaii.  Who leaves their kid when they are that sick?  And her brother was apparently using her credit card to buy pizza a couple of hours after reporting her death, not criminal but creepy….flash forward to him hitting Tacotime or some place like that after burying one of the kids.

And her mom and other sister in an interview on a national show are going on about how well they know her because they are so close as a family and then the sister mentions she hasn’t been to any of Lori’s weddings (5 by then) and the mother turns and mocks her because she got invited to one iirc.  It is just one craziness after another around her, so I do think she likely has major mental issues and problems with reality.
 

 The mom and sister were also going on about how she had always been a faithful, typical Latter-day Saint iirc (that might have been a friend), but she married one nonmember after another.  That is not typical behaviour…4 husbands with Chad as number 5.  I think Charles converted from Catholicism, so was closest to typical and lasted the longest (12 years iirc) and was the richest.  Good looking and very fit. But the best friend reported she picked at him a lot, not satisfied with what he did for her.  I can see her thinking he was to invested in being a father and a good employer (when she emptied his bank account, he was most worried about paying his employees).  She paid the bills and spent the money, it is reported.  Prior to killing him, she is spending 8 hours a day at the temple, but she also is telling her friend she isn’t wearing her garments anymore as she has been translated and doesn’t need then anymore.  And she is marrying Chad at the temple with Moroni giving her away (don’t know if he was there as an angel or if another friend was supposedly his reincarnation) and Christ as witness. And checking the amount of life insurance he has and changing his password apparently thinking he wouldn’t be able to access the account to change the beneficiary…but he just called to do it.  Both of them are, of course, married to others at that time when they went to the temple together.  And the relationship is open in front of the in group and they are walking around the BYU track hands all over each other, so he is delusional about not getting caught.

Otoh, CD takes the time to lie to a woman sitting next to him apparently about helping a friend build a house or move on one of his flights between there and his home in Idaho (this may be a false claim) and he has Lori send him a fake letter from Charles asking for help to write a book to deceive Tammy (documented by cops), so while she is bragging to Charles she can kill him anytime she wants to because she is a goddess, Chad is making very down to earth lies to cover his tracks…and Charles dies a few days after he threatens to contact Tammy to tell her about the affair.  Chad even denies knowing Lori very well to the cops in Idaho when he encounters them at Lori’s apartment complex.  They know already he has married her in Hawaii iirc.

Where it counts though, with the cops in Arizona when Charles is telling them she is loco and tries to get her committed, she acts well enough the victim, he is the one with the problems, he stole her purse and she is reporting him because of the advice of a cop friend.  
 

I need to listen to the post murder interviews with the cops, I haven’t been able to bring myself to do that after seeing the video of Charles pleading for help and the cops are obviously thinking ‘this is domestic crap, they need couples counseling,  not cops’.  I have seen her talking to the cops outside the townhouse after Charles is killed and they had to have thought something was off because she is cracking a joke about what the neighbors must think of them when one walks by.

Anyway, what it all comes down to is he seems relatively grounded in reality, though foolish in his games of deception, a clumsy con man…otoh she knows she needs to con the cops, she is not bragging about being a goddess to them, but portraying herself as the wronged wife of a man with a violent temper.  But with Chad and her friend, she is quoting scripture right and left and talking prayers and temple attendance.  So I am guessing that he used the man of vision stuff to attract attention and get money and she showed up, at which point he told her anything to suck her in while she talked herself into believing so she too could get what she wanted.  But she was as dominating on her side of things as he was on his I am guessing because there is a big difference in how he looked married to Tammy—dumpy, poor haircut, not great fitting shirts—and how he looked after marriage to a very appearance conscious Lori.  She had him on a diet and gave him a more attractive haircut and in style clothing that fit.  And they were in her dream paradise, Hawaii, in her old stomping grounds, even going to her former ward, rather than somewhere they were unknown.

I am debating whether to dump this as too much speculation and rambling, but think I will leave it up to see how much gets confirmed later on either in the trial or the books to come (know of two planned ones so far).  Added:  thinking this was in Daybell thread…may switch it after some sleep.

Yes, this fills in many of the gaps in my understanding of that affair.  The lawyers would be wise to sum it up that way.  Goes to suggesting a depraved indifference by some very sick people.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:12 PM, Calm said:

So is it breaking the law behaviour, just not enforced much by law enforcement, but by civil suits?  Counts as misdemeanors maybe? (Just checked, those can still get jail time, so I don’t know the correct term)

In the real world, cops and prosecutors let a lot of things slide.