Popular Post Freedom Posted June 10, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 There are a number of patriarchal practices that are slowing fading. A recent example is the requirement for only priesthood holders to be a witness at a baptism. Another practice that I think can go is that one must at least be a deacon to pass the sacrament. I cannot find any doctrinal foundation to this practice other than that it is how the doctrine is currently interpreted. What is rather silly is that, the moment the sacrament tray is handed over someone at the end of a row, it is then passed along by non-priesthood holders. Begs the question, what the doctrinal definition of passing the sacrament? If a women taking the tray is not passing it, then what would we call that? I see many references that say that 'the sacrament is administered by those who hold the necessary priesthood authority" but there is never a scripture reference to accompany statements refering to deacons passing the sacrament. D&C 20:76 states, in reference to the sacrament, 'and the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it - he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer". To me, the doctrine is that the administering is limited to the ordinance itself. An ordinance that requires the office of at least a priest. I do not see a reason why a 12 year old girl cannot pass the sacrament, just as I see no reason why a women cannot be a ward clerk or executive secretary or, to really show my radical leftwing apostate ways, to witness a baptism or pray in general conference. There is also the matter of preparing and taking down the sacrament. Women get clothing ready for a baptism and even fill the fonts. They prepare a chair and grab the oil for a blessing. Why does one have to be a teacher to prepare and take down the sacrament, other than to create a make work project to give 14 year old boys some sort of purpose in life. I say it is time for these tradition to go away. Lets have the youth work together to more fully participate in sacred ordinances. 7 Link to comment
Calm Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Freedom said: Begs the question, what the doctrinal definition of passing the sacrament? Allow me because I am in that kind of mood tonight... ”Raises the question...” 4 Link to comment
AtlanticMike Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, Freedom said: I do not see a reason why a 12 year old girl cannot pass the sacrament Health wise, for all those who partake, it would probably be a lot safer if girls passed the sacrament. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Freedom Posted June 10, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2021 27 minutes ago, Calm said: Allow me because I am in that kind of mood tonight... ”Raises the question...” ya, I suppose you are right. But to be fair, I have been begging to raise the question for some time. 5 Link to comment
sunstoned Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 35 minutes ago, Calm said: Allow me because I am in that kind of mood tonight... ”Raises the question...” Thank you. This is one of my pet peeves. I think I got it from Scott. 1 Link to comment
Duncan Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Correct me If I am wrong but women used to set up and clean the Sacrament up until the 1950's when they switched to plastic cups. They got rid of communal cups decades ago but IIRC they had glass cups that needed to be washed every week. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said: Health wise, for all those who partake, it would probably be a lot safer if girls passed the sacrament. Why? It has not been my experience that girls are more likely to practice good hygiene. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Why? It has not been my experience that girls are more likely to practice good hygiene. What?! We are sugar and spice and everything nice! You guys are the snakes and snails... I don’t even want to think about the puppy dog tails. 4 Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 hour ago, Freedom said: There are a number of patriarchal practices that are slowing fading. A recent example is the requirement for only priesthood holders to be a witness at a baptism. Another practice that I think can go is that one must at least be a deacon to pass the sacrament. I cannot find any doctrinal foundation to this practice other than that it is how the doctrine is currently interpreted. What is rather silly is that, the moment the sacrament tray is handed over someone at the end of a row, it is then passed along by non-priesthood holders. Begs the question, what the doctrinal definition of passing the sacrament? If a women taking the tray is not passing it, then what would we call that? I see many references that say that 'the sacrament is administered by those who hold the necessary priesthood authority" but there is never a scripture reference to accompany statements refering to deacons passing the sacrament. D&C 20:76 states, in reference to the sacrament, 'and the elder or priest shall administer it; and after this manner shall he administer it - he shall kneel with the church and call upon the Father in solemn prayer". To me, the doctrine is that the administering is limited to the ordinance itself. An ordinance that requires the office of at least a priest. I do not see a reason why a 12 year old girl cannot pass the sacrament, just as I see no reason why a women cannot be a ward clerk or executive secretary or, to really show my radical leftwing apostate ways, to witness a baptism or pray in general conference. There is also the matter of preparing and taking down the sacrament. Women get clothing ready for a baptism and even fill the fonts. They prepare a chair and grab the oil for a blessing. Why does one have to be a teacher to prepare and take down the sacrament, other than to create a make work project to give 14 year old boys some sort of purpose in life. I say it is time for these tradition to go away. Lets have the youth work together to more fully participate in sacred ordinances. 3 Nephi 18 3 And when the disciples had come with bread and wine, he took of the bread and brake and blessed it; and he gave unto the disciples and commanded that they should eat. 4 And when they had eaten and were filled, he commanded that they should give unto the multitude. 5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name. 6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you. 2 Link to comment
Freedom Posted June 10, 2021 Author Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: 3 Nephi 18 3 And when the disciples had come with bread and wine, he took of the bread and brake and blessed it; and he gave unto the disciples and commanded that they should eat. 4 And when they had eaten and were filled, he commanded that they should give unto the multitude. 5 And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name. 6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you. so the priest breaks and blesses it and gives it unto the people, such as a 12 year old girl, who passes it around for all to eat and drink. There is nothing in the passage that says it must be a priesthood holder who caries a tray, or for that matter that it must be a priesthood holder who 'should give unto the multitude'. 1 Link to comment
Rain Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: Health wise, for all those who partake, it would probably be a lot safer if girls passed the sacrament. Boys can be just as clean or cleaner than girls. This is not a matter of what sex you are, but of what your personality is. 2 Link to comment
JustAnAustralian Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Freedom said: just as I see no reason why a women cannot be a ward clerk or executive secretary A female clerk would often result in a male and female being alone together (doing the tithing for example), which goes up against the church policy against that. Link to comment
Calm Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rain said: Boys can be just as clean or cleaner than girls. This is not a matter of what sex you are, but of what your personality is. Or your parents.... Grandma made sure we stayed clean. Dad never spoke of his satin suit, but we all knew the picture. Edited June 10, 2021 by Calm 1 Link to comment
AtlanticMike Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rain said: Boys can be just as clean or cleaner than girls. This is not a matter of what sex you are, but of what your personality is. I agree they can be, but in my experience they're not. We have this one kid who will pick his nose at least 2 or 3 times before passing the sacrament. He's been told to quit, he just can't help it. He's not a digger, just a feeler, it's a nervous tick I think. In my experience girls are at least smart enough not to pick their nose in front of 200 people. Also, I can't think of one time my girls have ever gone to church without taking a shower, it's a yell fest at my house in the morning when they're trying to get ready, but that at least means they touched a bar of soap in the morning. Now boys on the other hand, well, I waited 5 minutes before I had to get in the car to get out of bed. Put my clothes on, put gum in my mouth so I could like to my mom about brushing my teeth and got in the car. Do you know how much scratching and rubbing goes on while boys sleep😂😂. Edited June 10, 2021 by AtlanticMike Link to comment
Peacefully Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 8 hours ago, Calm said: Allow me because I am in that kind of mood tonight... ”Raises the question...” At what point does modern usage outweigh the classical usage of such a phrase? You may be fighting a losing battle, lol! 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, Peacefully said: At what point does modern usage outweigh the classical usage of such a phrase? You may be fighting a losing battle, lol! I am not fighting a battle to keep the phrase as I believe language is living, dynamic and I am happy to embrace most changes (I don’t like the change to include more vulgarity). English poetry is exhilarating because so many ways to play with the language. No, I put up the comment because of a desire to poke at a bit of board culture. The level of obsession on this and other tidbits amuses me. 2 Link to comment
Peacefully Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Calm said: I am not fighting a battle to keep the phrase as I believe language is living, dynamic and I am happy to embrace most changes (I don’t like the change to include more vulgarity). English poetry is exhilarating because so many ways to play with the language. No, I put up the comment because of a desire to poke at a bit of board culture. The level of obsession on this and other tidbits amuses me. Haha, I should have known you weren’t one of the hard-liners. Neither am I. I believe language evolves and modern usage trumps the classical in most cases. Like you, I do not care for vulgarity. I was raised in a “cuss-free” home so those words don’t come naturally to me. Not sure if you are referring to English-language poetry or more specifically to British poetry, but I love the latter. I received my bachelor’s degree in English with an emphasis on British lit. Anyway, it is amusing how the perceived misuse of this phrase really upsets some on this board. I think we have bigger fish to fry, which begs the question, what is the etymology of “bigger fish to fry?” Back to Google, lol. Edited June 10, 2021 by Peacefully Link to comment
Tacenda Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 7 hours ago, Freedom said: so the priest breaks and blesses it and gives it unto the people, such as a 12 year old girl, who passes it around for all to eat and drink. There is nothing in the passage that says it must be a priesthood holder who caries a tray, or for that matter that it must be a priesthood holder who 'should give unto the multitude'. Goes along with saying we must take the sacrament with the right hand or even when someone must raise their right hand under oath. Seems like it's more tradition and it might have to be changed for wards that have more women than men or in very small remote places. Link to comment
Doctrine 612 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 D anc c 20 57 And is to be assisted always, in all his duties in the church, by the deacons, if occasion requires The deacons duty is to assist. 1 Link to comment
Doctrine 612 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: Goes along with saying we must take the sacrament with the right hand or even when someone must raise their right hand under oath. Seems like it's more tradition and it might have to be changed for wards that have more women than men or in very small remote places. The hand book says it is to be taken but the right hand Link to comment
Tacenda Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 Just now, Doctrine 612 said: The hand book says it is to be taken but the right hand There's many things in the handbook, IMO, that are tradition or man-made. But if anyone can change things it's the current president of the church, he gets done things I'd never thought possible if you think about it. Or made changes such as the temple changes that gear to more equality. Link to comment
Doctrine 612 Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: There's many things in the handbook, IMO, that are tradition or man-made. But if anyone can change things it's the current president of the church, he gets done things I'd never thought possible if you think about it. Or made changes such as the temple changes that gear to more equality. I remember that this has been a teaching in the church for a long time, but the addition of this phrase in the hand book is new. I find it is best practice to go along with rules we have today and not rules we will have maby in the future. who knows the change of more to come, for example the removal of the girls organization no longer in use i.e. my maid Laurel and now the separation of the sexes on Saturday general conference. Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 9 hours ago, sunstoned said: Thank you. This is one of my pet peeves. I think I got it from Scott. I got it from one of my philosophy professors whose focus was on logic. Boy, he sure did hate the misuse of begging the questions. 50 minutes ago, Peacefully said: Not sure if you are referring to English-language poetry or more specifically to British poetry, but I love the latter. I received my bachelor’s degree in English with an emphasis on British lit. Me, too! (with a double major in philosophy). I zeroed in on the British Romantics. What a wonderful and zany bunch of poets! 2 Link to comment
Peacefully Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: I got it from one of my philosophy professors whose focus was on logic. Boy, he sure did hate the misuse of begging the questions. Me, too! (with a double major in philosophy). I zeroed in on the British Romantics. What a wonderful and zany bunch of poets! Same here! Shelley was my favorite, but I couldn’t even quote one line now. Maybe I’ll get back to those tortured British poets when I retire:) 1 Link to comment
Peacefully Posted June 10, 2021 Share Posted June 10, 2021 42 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said: I remember that this has been a teaching in the church for a long time, but the addition of this phrase in the hand book is new. I find it is best practice to go along with rules we have today and not rules we will have maby in the future. who knows the change of more to come, for example the removal of the girls organization no longer in use i.e. my maid Laurel and now the separation of the sexes on Saturday general conference. The youth will lead the way. Link to comment
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