Increasing state-authorized/Mandated segregation

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

POC are exercising their newfound power to punish us for the actions of some of our ancestors. This will not end well. 

It didn't start well.  You are right it might not end well either.

[jkwilliams]

As I mentioned yesterday in a series of posts that spectacularly blew up in my face, I'm on the second volume of a history trilogy of the Civil Rights movement. On the occasion of a celebration of the life of Abraham Lincoln in 1962, President Kennedy recorded a speech played at the gala gathering. In it, he spoke of the denial of civil rights, voter suppression, and segregation as if they were past history, which came as a surprise to the Freedom Riders, SNCC voter registration volunteers, and black people everywhere struggling for equal rights. Some people speak of racism against nonwhites in the same way today, as if we have arrived at a "postracial" America, where these things don't happen anymore. But the fight for equality is an ongoing struggle, and it advances in lurches and spurts, and yes, maybe sometimes people overstep the mark. Such is to be expected. And no, there is no end point at which we can say the work is done, we are healed as a nation. We will, hopefully, reach a place where these issues aren't an everyday fact of life.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

 

As I mentioned yesterday in a series of posts that spectacularly blew up in my face, …

 

Was that in the thread about the suit against religious universities? 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Was that in the thread about the suit against religious universities? 

Don’t rub it in. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Baba Lou said:

It is wise for a man to learn how a woman thinks in an attempt to understand her thought processes.  @bluebell gave an example that illustrated how a woman feels and thinks after she has been hurt by a man by what she perceives as some type of abuse.  She said the woman feels the need to be the one in charge of deciding when that hurt has been healed, not the man.  And that hurt will continue for her until she decides or determines that hurt has been healed, regardless of what the man does or says to try to atone for the hurt that he caused her.  Reasoning with her is not the solution.  Asking her to forgive may not and probably will not result in automatic instant forgiveness at the moment the man asks to be forgiven.  She alone will decide when and if that hurt has been healed and there is no guarantee that someday she will totally forgive that man for the hurt she believe he caused her, or actually did cause her if he actually did hurt her.

The mind of a woman is a wonder to behold, and things can get very complicated at times, but women are usually worth it, in my opinion.  Every man should have at least one as a wife, I believe. 

As hard as it may be to live with them at times, I would not want to live my life without mine.

I actually didn't say it was about how a woman feels.  It said it was about how the spouse, who could be either a man or a woman, who was hurt feels.  Both men and women commit adultery.  

Also, reasoning with the hurt spouse might actually be part of the solution, it just depends.  And, what the husband or wife who cheated does or says while trying to atone for their choices has a HUGE impact on healing or aggravating the hurt.  Huge.

[Peacefully]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

One thing that I think we can do is to allow and support segregated spaces unless or until one is shown to be unjust in some way.  Where real harm has occurred, safe places make sense.  And we may not want to admit it but white people have done plenty of real harm to minorities.   

In that sense, I don't see some black people wanting a place without white people any different than some women wanting a place without men, and we don't usually have problems seeing 'women only' gyms as discrimination, for example.

Dr. Phil (bless his heart) had a saying that he used a lot when counseling married people where one had committed adultery, and the say was (not quoting word for word) that you don't try to fix the harm you caused for a specific amount of time, you fix it "until".  Until the person you hurt says its been fixed.  That might be a year or it might be 5 years.  But the important thing to remember is that you don't get to dictate the timeline.

I think that's pretty applicable in this case.  

Right, and the guilty party shouldn’t become indignant when the hurt party says they need time and/or space. This kind of goes back to the discussion on asking women what they want or need instead of jumping in to fix things. Maybe we should be asking POC what they need from us instead of telling them what we have done for them and expecting them to be grateful for basic human rights. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

WWADD (what would Angela Davis do)?

Deny the oppressive domination of bourgeois, patriarchal values, and demand that those oppressors be re-educated by whatever means necessary to make them peaceful members of the collective, who understand CORRECT values, and that politics imbues all features of life in our Socialist Collective.

All thoughts ARE political, and that TRUTH must be enforced

Those who cannot be re-educated may need to be isolated from the collective for their own good and that of the collective.

_____________________________________

Wow

That all came flooding back a little too easily 😱

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by mfbukowski

[AtlanticMike]

31 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Right, and the guilty party shouldn’t become indignant when the hurt party says they need time and/or space. This kind of goes back to the discussion on asking women what they want or need instead of jumping in to fix things. Maybe we should be asking POC what they need from us instead of telling them what we have done for them and expecting them to be grateful for basic human rights. 

 

[Bob Crockett]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

The biggest threat to black people is . . . other black people.  

 

-Smac

This is quite a rascist statement usually made by the right wing loonies.

You need to factor out of crime statistics poverty before you make a statement like this.  In other words, people who live in poor neighborhoods are more likely to fall victrim to their neighbors than anybody else.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

But I am disputing the notion that replacing one form of discrimination with another is a good idea.  

I think there is a fundamental difference between not wanting a member of a different race in your space because you are trying to exclude them as much as possible from your life which is what white only spaces were in the past and likely most are still that way now as opposed to wanting a space for one’s own identified group because one feels dominated by other races, groups, that one loses one’s voice, shuts down, etc. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Calm

[Baba Lou]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I actually didn't say it was about how a woman feels.  It said it was about how the spouse, who could be either a man or a woman, who was hurt feels.  Both men and women commit adultery.  

Also, reasoning with the hurt spouse might actually be part of the solution, it just depends.  And, what the husband or wife who cheated does or says while trying to atone for their choices has a HUGE impact on healing or aggravating the hurt.  Huge.

I was thinking of you as the woman who was expressing how you felt and what you thought in your post.  Here it is again as I read it:

Anything on this topic that includes "what about whites?" is just never going to work.  It doesn't matter how logical the question is or how reasonably it is meant or how unfair any white person thinks it is.  You will always get pushback until you can remove the "what about whites?" from the discussion.

You have to heal the hurt before you can come at the topic with logic or reason.   And there is no way to heal the hurt when the group who caused/is causing it keeps trying to interject themselves into the conversation.

As I read what you wrote again just now I noticed youi didn't even use the word spouse, or a husband/wife situation.  You were just talking about how you feel and think hurt must be resolved first before reason and logic are allowed by the one who is hurt to enter the picture.  And I have noticed in my own experiences with women how you are not the only woman who feels and thinks what you were expressing.  My own wife has commented on how I am usually very quick to forgive, as if I can just turn a switch on and off, while she needs more time to adjust her thoughts and feelings.  

 

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

You would never say this to a black person.  Or a hispanic or Jewish person

Because there is a whole lot of history/baggage that goes with white only spaces and other white only services that isn’t attached at this time to minority only places...including minority only places generally have not and do not currently prevent whites from having access to services provided in these spaces where most times white only did. 
 

The present is not disconnected somehow from the past...the past is ever present in the present. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Calm

[AtlanticMike]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

safe places make sense

 

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

 

Catchy tune but not sure what it has to do with my statement. 

[Baba Lou]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

As I mentioned yesterday in a series of posts that spectacularly blew up in my face, I'm on the second volume of a history trilogy of the Civil Rights movement. On the occasion of a celebration of the life of Abraham Lincoln in 1962, President Kennedy recorded a speech played at the gala gathering. In it, he spoke of the denial of civil rights, voter suppression, and segregation as if they were past history, which came as a surprise to the Freedom Riders, SNCC voter registration volunteers, and black people everywhere struggling for equal rights. Some people speak of racism against nonwhites in the same way today, as if we have arrived at a "postracial" America, where these things don't happen anymore. But the fight for equality is an ongoing struggle, and it advances in lurches and spurts, and yes, maybe sometimes people overstep the mark. Such is to be expected. And no, there is no end point at which we can say the work is done, we are healed as a nation. We will, hopefully, reach a place where these issues aren't an everyday fact of life.

I am struggling to understand what equal rights is all about.  What would it be like if everyone treated everyone else equally?  Would it mean treating everyone without any real concern for them?  Or treating everyone as if everyone is the most important or valued person in each of our lives?  If everyone treated everyone else equally poorly that would be treating everyone equally.  I think what some people really want is royal treatment, to be treated as if they are somehow better than anyone else. I know that's not equal treatment, but I think that is what a lot of people would like.  I also think many people don't really want an equal distribution of this world's wealth.  I think most people want to be rich, even if the poor make up the majority of the population.

[AtlanticMike]

3 minutes ago, Baba Lou said:

I am struggling to understand what equal rights is all about.  What would it be like if everyone treated everyone else equally?  Would it mean treating everyone without any real concern for them?  Or treating everyone as if everyone is the most important or valued person in each of our lives?  If everyone treated everyone else equally poorly that would be treating everyone equally.  I think what some people really want is royal treatment, to be treated as if they are somehow better than anyone else. I know that's not equal treatment, but I think that is what a lot of people would like.  I also think many people don't really want an equal distribution of this world's wealth.  I think most people want to be rich, even if the poor make up the majority of the population.

Hi 😁

[MiserereNobis]

5 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Hi 😁

You might have already met this poster… 😉

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Let us know when white folks get pulled over for driving a car that's too nice, or get arrested for walking in their own neighborhood. Then you might approach some sort of moral equivalence. Acting as if people of color are usurping white power and desiring to punish people for being white sounds a lot like fear of losing a privileged place in society. 

I got pulled all the time for driving while being a long hair. I think all cops are arseholes. Deal with it. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

You might have already met this poster… 😉

Ya think?

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Attempts to implement equality ALWAYS feel like attacks to the privileged and those who held a higher status. It won’t end well for that reason.

We already had a laughably inept coup attempt over it. Hopefully this is not the equivalent of the Beer Hall Putsch before the Nazis took power. I think we might dodge that. The US has a more entrenched concept of democracy and republicanism compared to the people of the Weimar Republic. At least I hope they do.

55 years ago we had desegregation. We are going backwards.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

I got pulled all the time for driving while being a long hair. I think all cops are arseholes. Deal with it. 

You apparently have the ability to cut your hair. 

[AtlanticMike]

21 minutes ago, Baba Lou said:

I am struggling to understand what equal rights is all about.  What would it be like if everyone treated everyone else equally?  Would it mean treating everyone without any real concern for them?  Or treating everyone as if everyone is the most important or valued person in each of our lives?  If everyone treated everyone else equally poorly that would be treating everyone equally.  I think what some people really want is royal treatment, to be treated as if they are somehow better than anyone else. I know that's not equal treatment, but I think that is what a lot of people would like.  I also think many people don't really want an equal distribution of this world's wealth.  I think most people want to be rich, even if the poor make up the majority of the population.

Message me privately if you want, I would like to talk to you

[JustAnAustralian]

A question I have (that might be location specific) is what are the requirements to acceptably claim POC status?

In Australia, the obvious example is Australian Aboriginals. 

Quote

The Australian Government has 3 criteria for determining whether a person is Indigenous. According to this definition, a person is Indigenous if they:

• are of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander descent
• identify as Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander and
• are accepted by the Indigenous community in which he or she lives

But that doesn't apply to other groups.

For example, I'm of mixed ethnicity, but through the fates of genetics and being raised in Australia, I look, act, and sound like your "standard" white person of European ancestry.

If I was in the US, could I get away with spending time in the POC space that aligns with my non-europeans ancestry?

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You might have already met this poster… 😉

I am thinking of starting a thread of “Unearth Ahab” to see who is the quickest and who has the fewest missed ‘hits’ in identifying his new variations on the theme.

[OGHoosier]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am thinking of starting a thread of “Unearth Ahab” to see who is the quickest and who has the fewest missed ‘hits’ in identifying his new variations on the theme.

Pin the Post on the Ahab.

I thought about writing up something substantive which might contribute to the discussion but I don't feel like it right now so it's Mormon Dialogue comedy time. 

Edited June 5, 2021 by OGHoosier