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Increasing state-authorized/Mandated segregation


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2 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Pin the Post on the Ahab.

I thought about writing up something substantive which might contribute to the discussion but I don't feel like it right now so it's Mormon Dialogue comedy time. 

I have grandkids over, so light and short posts are all for tonight. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have long appreciated that the Church local congregations are largely determined by geography.  The Church does have "language" wards (our stake as a "Spanish" ward and a "Japanese" ward), but anyone can attend. 

The Church also has "Polynesian" wards that are, as I understand it, not based on "language" but on broad shared cultural/ethnic bonds.  These are something of an anomaly in the Church, but I think they persist because, well, they tend to be very effect.  My sister-in-law is from Samoa, so my brother - a haole - has for many years attended a Polynesian ward.  In fact, he is currently the bishop of the ward.

I'm not sure what the criteria are for getting records transferred to a Polynesian ward.  My sense is that the rules are somewhat lax.  We had a young man in our ward transfer his records to a local Polynesian ward for a while.  He is not Polynesian and has never lived in the islands.  But he had some Poly friends and they appeared to have an influence on him.

Anyway, there is not, in my view, race-based segregation in the Church.  I have been in my ward for 15 years, and have seen people of many, many different racial/ethnic/cultural backgrounds cycle through (I live near BYU in Provo, so we have a lot of turnover).

I am, however, concerned about the return of segregation in other segments of society.  But where old-school "segregation" favored and privileged white people, the current trend goes in other directions.

Race-based "Hang-outs" and "Safe Spaces":

Race-based healthcare:

Race-based housing and roommate selection:

Race-based grading and selection of teachers/students:

Race-based student orientations and graduation ceremonies:

Race-based student events and training/educational opportunities:

Race-based "training" sessions:

Obviously there is some nuance and differentiation to be applied here, but in broad strokes these trends are pretty troubling.  

Much of the rot seems to be coming from college campuses and government.  In other words, from power structures and institutions.  

I would like to discuss what we as individuals, and as members of the Church, do to address and correct these things.  Certainly there are legal and political options available (I'd rather not discuss them here), but are there additional things we can do as private individuals?  As members of the Church?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

The vast majority of these articles (I did notice the NYT article) are from conservative news organizations, not that there's anything inherently wrong with that... :)  But this approach, I think, encourages someone else to counter with a few dozen articles from liberal news sources. And there are more non-partisan, neutral news sources out there as well that are probably a better representation of what is going on than either of the other two.

I find the reactionary polarization from the "more sensitive" persons -- Black or white -- more troubling than experiments in and discussion over how to better establish, use and expand the role of "safe spaces" in preparing marginalized people for more general, public participation and dialog. I believe this would involve elements of support, recovery and advocacy groups, with an eye toward collaboration between historically separate groups (like the Church and NAACP have begun to do -- I think a service and education emphasis confirms our common humanity better than anything else).

We find many examples in the Book of Mormon of marginalized and victimized groups accomplishing this (Zoramites, anti-Lehi-Nephites, etc.). These groups had very unique experiences with which they identified and by which they defined themselves. Race is another, very unique experience of Black people in America (and other groups are also making their unique race-related experience  known). White Americans generally do not understand what it is to have to consciously carry the color of their skin as a societal liability -- whatever other disadvantages they, the white people, may have as individuals. This lack of understanding is no more intentional than the identity Black people adopt from their birth.

President Nelson (and others) has counseled private individuals to reach and out and get to know people different from themselves. President Oaks has done the same, emphasizing loving those of different political leanings as well as races, and the role of the various divinely inspired principles of our Constitution in softening hearts and intentionally expanding opportunities to realize the aims delineated in the Preamble to all Americans.

ETA: Another thing I think we can do is find various articles on what we can do to improve race relations, from reliable sources. Prayerful pondering will invite the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Edited by CV75
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7 hours ago, smac97 said:

You seem to be conflating race with socioeconomic status.  I don't think that works.

Ah, so it's not relevant that the average white family has more than 10 times the wealth of the average Black family? It's not relevant that the structures put in place a century ago to support and perpetuate segregation continue to do their jobs phenomenally well? It's not relevant that redlining maps from the 1930s are still overwhelmingly accurate predictors of where white folks and minorities will live? You know, the GOP certainly seemed to think conflating race with socioeconomic status "works." I mean, that was one of the foundations of their Southern Strategy, as Lee Atwater, one of the architects of that strategy, explicitly explained:

Quote

You start out in 1954 by saying, “N****r, n****er, n****r.” By 1968 you can’t say “n****r”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N****r, n****r.”

 

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7 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't like the idea of race-based privileges. 

Then why are you fighting so hard to protect yours?

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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

You apparently have the ability to cut your hair. 

Yeah but i choose not to. In solidarity with my brothers. Say you don't think that influences my ability to get a TR , do ya? I actually did cut it last month for the first time in years. Not to short though. I wouldn't want to get a redneck. 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

The biggest threat to black people is . . . other black people.  

-Smac

 

Wow, this is wildly false, deeply stupid, and profoundly racist. You're appealing to the fact that the overwhelming majority of people responsible for the murders of Black folks are other Black folks, and you acknowledge that most white murders are committed by other white folks. You know why? Because murders tend to take place among people who live near each other, and segregation still has its claws deep in this nation. You know, there was a reason they built highways and interstates to split the projects off from the wealthier white neighborhoods. You know what is a much stronger predictor of violent crime than race? Urban poverty. Poor urban white communities experience the same rates as poor urban Black communities, but there are far more poor urban Black communities because we did such a good job ensuring Black folks stayed poor and stayed on the bad side of town. Now, am I responsible for the people who did that? Absolutely not. The effects are still very active, though, and I benefit from them, and I am absolutely responsible for what I do about that power imbalance. That's really the lynchpin to understanding why so many people laugh out loud at people who insist white people are being held responsible for the sins of others. Nothing could be further from the truth. No one says that. What we are responsible for is what we do about the system as it exists now. Are we going to defend and perpetuate it, or are we going to dismantle it. I've made an informed decision. You appear increasingly committed to a dogmatic one. 

Edited by Dan McClellan
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7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Excellent post. These "reform" websites seem to be about deflecting attention away from entrenched racism. Black people face constant discrimination in many aspects of life? Who cares? Harvard has a "safe space" for black students! The horror!

White folks have never once had to think about the fact that the overwhelming majority of us can entirely isolate ourselves from Black folks without a single thought. "Black folks should not be allowed to have spaces that I am not allowed to invade and hijack" is just such a bafflingly stupid and racist thing to say.

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Also, because it's definitely relevant here, Christian nationalism is white supremacy, and it's not where we will find the right answers to these social ills. It is built on right wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, and colorblind racial ideology. If you don't know what those technical terms mean, educate yourself.

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10 hours ago, Dan McClellan said:

and colorblind racial ideology for the gospel. 

Are you suggesting that God and or the Gospel  are respecter of persons? Are you also suggesting that God and or Gospel regard skin tone? 

 

President Russell M. Nelson declared: ‘The Lord has stressed his essential doctrine of equal opportunity for his children. … Differences in culture, language, gender, race, and nationality fade into insignificance as the faithful enter the covenant path and come unto our beloved Redeemer’ 

 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

White folks have never once had to think about the fact that the overwhelming majority of us can entirely isolate ourselves from Black folks without a single thought. "Black folks should not be allowed to have spaces that I am not allowed to invade and hijack" is just such a bafflingly stupid and racist thing to say.

 

How can society eliminate racism and promote harmony; not being racist is a start. Yet you and many loud vocal others promote segregation and racism (sure rewrite 'racism' to mean only those in power can be racist) as though it is a virtue.

 

Edited by provoman
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31 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

White folks have never once had to think about the fact that the overwhelming majority of us can entirely isolate ourselves from Black folks without a single thought. "Black folks should not be allowed to have spaces that I am not allowed to invade and hijack" is just such a bafflingly stupid and racist thing to say.

I'm really curious as to where you live and where you have lived and if you've been to the big city like LA or New York or Detroit or anything?

There are entire sections where white people don't go. Not if you value your health. That's the only part of town I had to carry a 10 mm in my nail bags to build stairs.

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2 minutes ago, provoman said:

Are you suggesting that God and or the Gospel  are respecter of persons? Are you also suggesting that God and or Gospel regard skin tone? 

 

President Russell M. Nelson declared: ‘The Lord has stressed his essential doctrine of equal opportunity for his children. … Differences in culture, language, gender, race, and nationality fade into insignificance as the faithful enter the covenant path and come unto our beloved Redeemer’ 

 

The notion that our goal of achieving true colorblindness as followers of Christ means we must also *IGNORE* the *INDISPUTABLE REALITY* of widespread systemic racism around this country at the hands of the hundreds of millions of other Americans who hold to no such ideal is just absolutely laughable, and that's not counting the significant portion of American Latter-day Saints who openly promoted nationalism, bigotry, jingoism, and xenophobia over the course of the previous administration and to this day, and so clearly are not living up to President Nelson's ideal. Maybe go learn what colorblind racial ideology actually is before just blithely spouting quotes from President Nelson. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

There are entire sections where white people don't go.

And why are whites not living there in the first place?

Perhaps they could afford to move out and had places to move to where other minorities could not. 

Edited by Calm
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9 minutes ago, provoman said:

 

How can society eliminate racism and promote harmony; not being racist is a start. Yet you and many loud vocal others promote segregation and racism (sure rewrite 'racism' to mean only those in power can be racist) as though it is a virtue.

 

Lol, no, I'm not rewriting anything whatsoever. I'm a linguist who's been studying racism for a decade. The term was coined in reference to the government's oppression of America's First Peoples, and it has absolutely always been used to refer to the actions of the powerful against the powerless. During the Civil Rights Movement, a lot of white folks decided "racism" was just too powerful an accusation not to be able to use against Black folks, so they came up with the concept of "reverse racism" to hurl at Black folks. Already the power directionality is made explicit, but white folks soon realized their term wasn't incredibly useful, so they retreated to the dictionary fallacy and just started insisting that "racism" refers to racial prejudice in any direction. *That* is the revisionist conceptualization of the term, and over the last ten years, every time a white dude tells me they just a priori know better than me, I invite them to show me just one use of the word "racism" from before the Civil Rights Movement in reference to Black>white prejudice. No one has ever once even attempted to go dig up an example. I know this is because there's no way they're actually gonna do any research, especially research that might undermine their worldview, but I extend the invitation anyway. So, by all means, prove me wrong and show me usage of the term "racism" prior to the Civil Rights Movement entirely divorced from very specific power dynamics. Take your time.

We will never eliminate racism because we cannot change people's hearts. We can at least dismantle the systemic power asymmetries that continue to reify it every single day all over the nation entirely independently of individuals. Oh, also, folks like you can get better educated.

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2 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

The notion that our goal of achieving true colorblindness as followers of Christ means we must also *IGNORE* the *INDISPUTABLE REALITY* of widespread systemic racism around this country at the hands of the hundreds of millions of other Americans who hold to no such ideal is just absolutely laughable, and that's not counting the significant portion of American Latter-day Saints who openly promoted nationalism, bigotry, jingoism, and xenophobia over the course of the previous administration and to this day, and so clearly are not living up to President Nelson's ideal. Maybe go learn what colorblind racial ideology actually is before just blithely spouting quotes from President Nelson. 

I'll accept the Prophets words over your condescending demands.

I have confidence that defense of or promotion of race based segregation, is clearly not living up to President Nelson's ideal, which ideal he attributed to Christ.

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm really curious as to where you live and where you have lived and if you've been to the big city like LA or New York or Detroit or anything?

There are entire sections where white people don't go. Not if you value your health. That's the only part of town I had to carry a 10 mm in my nail bags to build stairs.

No, there are no parts of this country where white people "don't go." There are parts where they may not like to go, or where they feel scared to go, but white people still go to those places. You even acknowledged in your own post that you go to those places. Also, those places where white folks don't like to go are precisely the places to which white folks spent generations trying to confine Black folks. They have been trapped there. They want to get out of those places real bad, but we continue to reinforce the systems that trap them there, all the while blaming them for what we've done to them.

Now, can you tell me precisely where on Harvard's campus those places are where white people "don't go"? 

Edited by Dan McClellan
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2 minutes ago, provoman said:

I'll accept the Prophets words over your condescending demands.

No, you'll just pervert the Prophet's words for the sake of your blithe defense of white supremacy.

Quote

I have confidence that defense of or promotion of race based segregation, is clearly not living up to President Nelson's ideal, which ideal he attributed to Christ.

It's not segregation, it's an attempt to dismantle systemic power asymmetries. It's just framed as segregation for folks who feel their privilege is threatened by it. 

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2 minutes ago, Dan McClellan said:

No, you'll just pervert the Prophet's words for the sake of your blithe defense of white supremacy.

It's not segregation, it's an attempt to dismantle systemic power asymmetries. It's just framed as segregation for folks who feel their privilege is threatened by it. 

You are the one perverting the words of the Prophet with your defense of and promotion of race based separation of peoples.

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1 minute ago, provoman said:

Your smug holier than thou pompous-$&@hatery is why I do not engage with you so very very much....yes we get you are better than all of us, thank you for responding to me - one so unworthy of your presence.

If you don't want me to criticize your rhetoric, don't so blithely promote white supremacy.

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5 minutes ago, provoman said:

You are the one perverting the words of the Prophet with your defense of and promotion of race based separation of peoples.

No, I'm promoting allowing oppressed minorities to have safe spaces. Like I said to smac, none of your rhetoric works at all unless you deny the reality of systemic power asymmetries. There has to be a level playing field for your rhetoric to work, and you know there isn't, so you just have to refuse to address it. You have to just keep insisting on your rhetoric. It's just laughable. 

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1 minute ago, Dan McClellan said:

No, I'm promoting allowing oppressed minorities to have safe spaces. Like I said to smac, none of your rhetoric works at all unless you deny the reality of systemic power asymmetries. There has to be a level playing field for your rhetoric to work, and you know there isn't, so you just have to refuse to address it. You have to just keep insisting on your rhetoric. It's just laughable. 

I get it, 

All racism is bad, but some racism isn't as bad as others.

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