Spirit birth and heavenly mother

[Nofear]

I personally doubt very much that spirit bodies are produced with a viviporous birth. Trillions of spirit children and the numbers just don't make much sense.

What we do know is all known accounts (at least that i know of) of your pre-mortal state describe fully adult spirit children. That doesn't mean there aren't pre-adult stages in the development of a spirit body but any understanding of that seems to be withheld from us. I quite suspect that is deliberate -- lest we be confused.

[JAHS]

22 hours ago, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

I have always understood that Intelligences have always existed and at some point are organized in to spirit beings which somehow requires a father and mother.
Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, speaking of people's divine origin as children of God, stated, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14).

The exact process of how this "organization" of intelligence into spirit beings happened has not been revealed to us yet'. This of course may be Elder Romney's own opinion on the subject. 

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:
"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual."(Progress of Man p. 10, 1936).

Spencer W. Kimball wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, 1969)
From all I have read about the subject, I tend to believe we existed as intelligences before we became spirits.

[Jamie]

On 5/18/2021 at 8:52 AM, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Try reasoning with God on these issues.  He invites and encourages us to reason with him.  I'm not 100% sure that I correctly understand everything involved in these issues but I am sure about more than some other people have been assured.

My understanding is that our Father and Mother can reproduce themselves in 2 ways, 1 way as spirit only (which we can think of as conveying or sharing their intelligence) and the other way as a body of flesh which has the potential to become mortal.  Like how both Adam and Eve lived in heaven, each as a spirit child of their spiritual parents, and then later they each inhabited a body of flesh which had also been created by our parents, a body of flesh that was not mortal then but had the potential to become mortal.

I don't see how you would be able to reasonably maintain faith in a Heavenly Mother without recognizing her as the Mother of your spirit.  You have another Mother that is the Mother of your body of flesh.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Jamie

[Jamie]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, we can go off how other ultra-powerful beings reproduce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyVlaWrwl4k

 

Nice that they thought the man's fertilization of the woman's egg should feel good, but where is it?  Why didn't they make their baby appear instantaneously as a full-grown adult?  Did the woman choose to carry it for a while for birth?  Where is it?

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith said:

"Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed.

Well scripture says intelligence is composed of truth and light.

Truth implies knowledge so perhaps self aware.  Light implies goodness.

If we were eternal, self aware and obedient to God as intelligences perhaps all we needed was a bodily form.  After all, yonder is matter unorganized.  That would include all forms of intelligences.

[Calm]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Can I say I was excited when I saw him mentioning he will be in the next season of Picard......because I am.

I found Q one of the best things in the Star Trek universe. Not only for the overall philosophical ideas it allowed the series to play with, but the choice of the actor himself, so I am very happy it is him and not a reboot, I am having real difficulties getting into the new versions because of what seems inconsistent to me with past visions of the franchise and people in it; they emphasize conflict so much...though the Q episodes were full of all types of conflict, they were still upbeat overall Imo.  But I get doing story arcs rather than alien of the week requires a different approach.  Certainly DS9 was centered around conflict and even Voyagers’ alien of the week was as often conflict rather than rescue, so not really as much change as it feels like to me. 
 

So few can pull off the over the top dramatics that are the key expressions of Q and still feel ‘natural’ rather than scripted. Apparently De Lancie is very dyslexic and has to work hard to learn the lines,  but whatever he does I have always found his roles well done even in the middle of dreck (only character I ever liked on a soap opera, but have to admit I haven’t watched a lot given I only saw them when roommates had them on and one particularly bad semester for depression before computers offered sufficient distraction options...maybe half the appeal was the storyline was so off the rails it came across as a parody of soaps to me https://daysofourlives.fandom.com/wiki/Eugene_Bradford )

I was very disappointed when Legend was not picked up:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_(TV_series)

Probably should stop derail and find something worthwhile to concentrate on. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Calm

[rpn]

Joseph Smith personally endorsed Eliza Snow's verse "reason tells me I've a Mother there".

But I don't see how spirit children can be created through any sort of replication of mortal sexual behavior --- Heavenly Mother and Father have resurrected bodies, so any child wouldn't be spirit, but mortal.   The process has to be different to preserve spirit children  being born to earthly parents in mortal bodies.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Joseph Smith personally endorsed Eliza Snow's verse "reason tells me I've a Mother there".

But I don't see how spirit children can be created through any sort of replication of mortal sexual behavior --- Heavenly Mother and Father have resurrected bodies, so any child wouldn't be spirit, but mortal.   The process has to be different to preserve spirit children  being born to earthly parents in mortal bodies.

It could be accomplished from a developmental standpoint. Just as mortal babies aren’t born as full-grown adults, and mortals must age – however briefly -- before they die and are resurrected (i.e., resurrected people arise from mortal people; inseparably connected spirit and element arises from separably connected spirit and element), children of resurrected parents could just as well be born without, or separate from, element.

[Jamie]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Joseph Smith personally endorsed Eliza Snow's verse "reason tells me I've a Mother there".

But I don't see how spirit children can be created through any sort of replication of mortal sexual behavior --- Heavenly Mother and Father have resurrected bodies, so any child wouldn't be spirit, but mortal.   The process has to be different to preserve spirit children  being born to earthly parents in mortal bodies.

...but not at any time were Adam and Eve created as mortals.  They were created with the potential to become mortal at some point, however.  And the first time Adam and Eve were created by their/our parents was when they were created as spirits, which I view as the time our/their parents reproduced themselves and then named those reproductions whatever they named them.  Adam was known as Michael before he was called Adam.  Eve's former name was, uh, I thought I remembered for a moment but no, but anyway, whatever her name was before she was named Eve.

 

[Jamie]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It could be accomplished from a developmental standpoint. Just as mortal babies aren’t born as full-grown adults, and mortals must age – however briefly -- before they die and are resurrected (i.e., resurrected people arise from mortal people; inseparably connected spirit and element arises from separably connected spirit and element), children of resurrected parents could just as well be born without, or separate from, element.

Except that spirit is element, some form of matter.  So the process as it has been revealed involved our parents reproducing themselves in spirit form only, male and female doing it together rather than a male doing it all by himself, and then at that point that reproduction of spirit is given a name.  Michael, for example, who we now also know as Adam.  And then sometime later Michael came down here in his spirit form only and entered another body that his/our parents had created for him from the elements of this planet (dust of the earth) that were available to them, not as a mortal but with the potential to become mortal.  And then Adam fell, with Eve, at which point they became mortal.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Jamie said:

Nice that they thought the man's fertilization of the woman's egg should feel good, but where is it?  Why didn't they make their baby appear instantaneously as a full-grown adult?  Did the woman choose to carry it for a while for birth?  Where is it?

It shows up later and wreaks havoc. Patience young Ahab.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Jamie said:

Except that spirit is element, some form of matter.  So the process as it has been revealed involved our parents reproducing themselves in spirit form only, male and female doing it together rather than a male doing it all by himself, and then at that point that reproduction of spirit is given a name.  Michael, for example, who we now also know as Adam.  And then sometime later Michael came down here in his spirit form only and entered another body that his/our parents had created for him from the elements of this planet (dust of the earth) that were available to them, not as a mortal but with the potential to become mortal.  And then Adam fell, with Eve, at which point they became mortal.

Yes and no. Spirit element is finer and purer in relation to that comprising the resurrected body, but this would not prevent a resurrected body from producing one or many spirits at once. The resurrected couple begins with interpersonal energy (just like we do), and the remaining details of how that brings, organizes, bridges, etc. co-eternal beings into the pre-mortal "family-" or “council-in-heaven” estate as spirit children are unknown. Given that form and function are inseparably connected in the genders, it requires people of the two sexes to accomplish this.

There may also be many estates that our spirits/intelligences pass through before the one depicted on our Plan of Salvation schematics. There may also be are gradations of fineness and purity as the co-eternal beings  advance in their progress.

Edited May 20, 2021 by CV75

[MrShorty]

24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Given that form and function are inseparably connected in the genders,...

Why make this assumption? I agree that we assume that form and function are inseparably connected in the genders in the ternities, but why make that assumption?

[CV75]

54 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Why make this assumption? I agree that we assume that form and function are inseparably connected in the genders in the ternities, but why make that assumption?

Because Adam (man, male) and Eve (woman, female) were created spiritually before naturally (e.g. Moses 3:5). Created things, spiritual and natural, have form and function: no one could tell the difference between the spiritual and natural creations until it was pointed out (e.g. Genesis 2; 4-7).

Edited May 20, 2021 by CV75

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/18/2021 at 8:52 AM, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Now these mysteries are not yet fully made known unto me; therefore I shall forbear.

[Jamie]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes and no. Spirit element is finer and purer in relation to that comprising the resurrected body, but this would not prevent a resurrected body from producing one or many spirits at once. The resurrected couple begins with interpersonal energy (just like we do), and the remaining details of how that brings, organizes, bridges, etc. co-eternal beings into the pre-mortal "family-" or “council-in-heaven” estate as spirit children are unknown. Given that form and function are inseparably connected in the genders, it requires people of the two sexes to accomplish this.

There may also be many estates that our spirits/intelligences pass through before the one depicted on our Plan of Salvation schematics. There may also be are gradations of fineness and purity as the co-eternal beings  advance in their progress.

The idea that spirit matter is more fine or pure than some other type of matter we usually think of, as I understand it, does not necessarily mean that spirit matter is some other type of matter.  It may just be that spirit matter is the finer parts or particles of all matter where there is any sign of life.  More finer parts meaning the more basic elements, such as the electrons and neutrons and quarks, etc... the tiny particles we refer to now as atomic particles.  Take a tree, for example.  When we describe the parts of a tree we usually think of the leaves and the branches and the bark and the roots, the bigger things, but trees also have more fine or pure particles like atoms and the parts that are within atoms, including some parts of the tree which make that tree alive, when it is alive.  Just as we also have fine particles within us or our bodies which make us living beings, whatever we choose to call those parts.  So I think about how we were parts of our parents which they used to reproduce themselves into us, beginning with the more fine particles of matter that were them or within them.  An egg from a woman and sperm from a man, including the more fine particles of matter composing that egg and that sperm. Parts of our parents that became us, the products of their reproduction.  And while you may say that we as mortals can only reproduce bodes of flesh for spirits to inhabit, our parents in heaven are able to reproduce bodies of flesh as well as their spirits into other spirits with spirit bodies, as well as bodies of flesh that are immortal, as Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell and thus became mortal. 

[Jamie]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It shows up later and wreaks havoc. Patience young Ahab.

No I meant where is it or where is it supposed to be at that instant after Q and Mrs. Q did their thing together.  ET could make his finger flash but that didn't mean he had a baby at that instant.  So how are we supposed to know/verify the Q baby? 

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, Jamie said:

The idea that spirit matter is more fine or pure than some other type of matter we usually think of, as I understand it, does not necessarily mean that spirit matter is some other type of matter.  It may just be that spirit matter is the finer parts or particles of all matter where there is any sign of life.  More finer parts meaning the more basic elements, such as the electrons and neutrons and quarks, etc... the tiny particles we refer to now as atomic particles.  Take a tree, for example.  When we describe the parts of a tree we usually think of the leaves and the branches and the bark and the roots, the bigger things, but trees also have more fine or pure particles like atoms and the parts that are within atoms, including some parts of the tree which make that tree alive, when it is alive.  Just as we also have fine particles within us or our bodies which make us living beings, whatever we choose to call those parts.  So I think about how we were parts of our parents which they used to reproduce themselves into us, beginning with the more fine particles of matter that were them or within them.  An egg from a woman and sperm from a man, including the more fine particles of matter composing that egg and that sperm. Parts of our parents that became us, the products of their reproduction.  And while you may say that we as mortals can only reproduce bodes of flesh for spirits to inhabit, our parents in heaven are able to reproduce bodies of flesh as well as their spirits into other spirits with spirit bodies, as well as bodies of flesh that are immortal, as Adam and Eve were immortal before they fell and thus became mortal. 

Spirit element doesn’t have to be another type of matter; on some grand level there is only one type of matter. So why bother qualifying it and just call it element? And why don’t we just call “man” “spirit” (D&C 93:33) for that matter? “Energy” of heart and soul (Moroni 7:48; Alma 5:43; 1 Nephi 16:24, 15:25) becomes part of the person's mass when at rest. Yes, heavenly parents can have spirit offspring.

[Jamie]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Spirit element doesn’t have to be another type of matter; on some grand level there is only one type of matter. So why bother qualifying it and just call it element? And why don’t we just call “man” “spirit” (D&C 93:33) for that matter? “Energy” of heart and soul (Moroni 7:48; Alma 5:43; 1 Nephi 16:24, 15:25) becomes part of the person's mass when at rest. Yes, heavenly parents can have spirit offspring.

Well, I do believe there are 2 types of matter.  Living matter vs dead matter.  Matter that can act vs matter that can only be acted upon because it can't act for itself.  Any living being vs a rock/stone, for example.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Jamie said:

Well, I do believe there are 2 types of matter.  Living matter vs dead matter.  Matter that can act vs matter that can only be acted upon because it can't act for itself.  Any living being vs a rock/stone, for example.  

I think these two would still be a subset of "matter". Scripturally, "act" and "acted upon" has to do with the moral agency of God's children. When it comes to "physics" of course God's children can be considered to be matter that can act with moral agency, and His principles can be considered to be matter that is acted upon (morally for better or worse), but both are still matter. The kingdoms of glory reflect the principle that some matter in the form of God's children can act (and at the same time be acted upon) to a greater extent than other children.

Edited May 20, 2021 by CV75

[AtlanticMike]

On 5/19/2021 at 9:30 AM, Nofear said:

I personally doubt very much that spirit bodies are produced with a viviporous birth. Trillions of spirit children and the numbers just don't make much sense.

What we do know is all known accounts (at least that i know of) of your pre-mortal state describe fully adult spirit children. That doesn't mean there aren't pre-adult stages in the development of a spirit body but any understanding of that seems to be withheld from us. I quite suspect that is deliberate -- lest we be confused.

Here ya go, I've been told that heaven has trillions of theses spirit birthing pods lined up in the garage of Heavenly Mother and Father. That reminds me, I have to check my incubator when I get home, I have baby chicks hatching any day now! 

[Damien the Leper]

We do know that God doesn't have a harem of wives whom He engages in coitus with. I don't know where such a ridiculous idea originated but it is pushing the lust for anthropomorphism to beyond absurdity.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Jamie said:

No I meant where is it or where is it supposed to be at that instant after Q and Mrs. Q did their thing together.  ET could make his finger flash but that didn't mean he had a baby at that instant.  So how are we supposed to know/verify the Q baby? 

The baby is shown later in the episode. It is clearly just very small at first.

 

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

We do know that God doesn't have a harem of wives whom He engages in coitus with. I don't know where such a ridiculous idea originated but it is pushing the lust for anthropomorphism to beyond absurdity.

Of course not. That is ridiculous. It is not called a harem.

[Jamie]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The baby is shown later in the episode. It is clearly just very small at first.

 

Sigh.  No, again.  I meant where was the baby at the instant when Q and Mrs. Q did what they did to reproduce another Q person.  In Mrs. Q's womb, as a fertilized egg waiting for the moment of birth?  Is that what we are supposed to assume?

Where was it/he/she at the first moment of that reproduction process?  What was it/he/she doing?  What did it/he/she look like at that moment?  Why did it/he/she turn out to look like it/he/she did?