Spirit birth and heavenly mother

[Rivers]

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Edited May 18, 2021 by Rivers

[Jane_Doe]

19 minutes ago, Rivers said:

The the teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

I think as mortals, we're really get stuck on the idea that "spiritual birth" equates to something like physical birth (9 months, big belly, morning sickness, dramatic bloody birth with lots of screaming, etc).  We know pretty much nothing about the mechanics of spiritual birth, but I doubt it's like that because there's not a physical body being developed.   Truth be told, we know pretty much nothing about the mechanics of spirits at all.       A tiny bit we do know is that a person does exist before their spiritual birth as an "intelligence", so there's zero conflict with the fact that we are each co-eternal with God.  

19 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Well, you can believe just about anything .  I find it's well within reason to say "I know I believe in Heavenly Mother.  I don't know much about spiritual birth, so I don't have a very strong belief/disbelief on that subject."

[ksfisher]

30 minutes ago, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings?

There is no revelation on this.  Much speculation.

 

31 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.

Do you have a source on this?  I'd be interested in his thinking.

[Rivers]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

There is no revelation on this.  Much speculation.

 

Do you have a source on this?  I'd be interested in his thinking.

I was listening to Blake Ostler in a podcast called Exploring Mormon Thought.  

He has written a series of books on Mormon theology that I have not read

[Rivers]

11 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

    A tiny bit we do know is that a person does exist before their spiritual birth as an "intelligence", so there's zero conflict with the fact that we are each co-eternal with God.  

 

Is there really a difference between spirits and intelligences?  Joseph Smith used the two terms interchangeably.

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, Rivers said:

He has written a series of books on Mormon theology that I have not read

I've read the first three.  I don't recall anything on what you've mentioned, but it was a while ago.

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Is there really a difference between spirits and intelligences?  Joseph Smith used the two terms interchangeably.

My impression has been the same as yours, that Joseph Smith was using the two words to describe a state of being that was very different than what we're experiencing in mortality. 

I think all Christians are comfortable with the thought of spirit beings, but as to what that really means we only have the smallest bit of understanding.

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Sure you can - "co-eternal" is "co-eternal" for each gender, with one Exalted Person of each being united together as God. I think we always existed, passing from one developmental estate or estate of glory into another, which transition can be considered a birth. We entered the estate where the Grand Council took place through the medium of Heavenly Parents.

Edited May 18, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

12 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Is there really a difference between spirits and intelligences?  Joseph Smith used the two terms interchangeably.

I think semantic differences can be made and agreed-upon for discussion purposes.

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

Not necessarily, have you ever seen the movie Passengers, they are watching over hibernation pods in space.  I think that's probably how we are birthed spiritually. Except we're put in a birthing pod and a few months later bammm!! New spirit baby😂. 

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Of course, in 30 to 50 years there's a good chance babies here on Earth will be grown to full term by living in a bag for 9 months, they will still have a mom, right? I bet I just blew your mind, huh? 😁

[Rivers]

25 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Not necessarily, have you ever seen the movie Passengers, they are watching over hibernation pods in space.  I think that's probably how we are birthed spiritually. Except we're put in a birthing pod and a few months later bammm!! New spirit baby😂. 

Of course, in 30 to 50 years there's a good chance babies here on Earth will be grown to full term by living in a bag for 9 months, they will still have a mom, right? I bet I just blew your mind, huh? 😁

Yep.  You sure did.

[ksfisher]

40 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Of course, in 30 to 50 years there's a good chance babies here on Earth will be grown to full term by living in a bag for 9 months, they will still have a mom, right? I bet I just blew your mind, huh? 😁

I would hope not.  I think there's much more that goes on in the mother's womb than just a fetus growing.  I nurture and mother child bonding starts there. 

The more that parents are removed from the growth and development of children the less human we become.

[rongo]

There are references in Journal of Discourses that describe spirit creation and resurrection as being priesthood ordinances. I think even if spirit children were born to exalted parents, there wouldn't be any contradiction in beings with glorified, resurrected bodies "giving birth" to spirit children --- simply because the parents' bodies are tangible. We know very little about the nature of glorified, resurrected bodies.

I think there is a lot of room for anyone to regard spirit creation as pretty much whatever one wants to, in the absence of light and knowledge on that.  

I'm not surprised that Ostler rejects Heavenly Mother. I don't care for his writing, myself. I figure my opinion is worth at least as much as his.  He and his treatments of things strike me as pompous. People are free to really like him, if they like --- there's no accounting for taste.  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  

That's understandable.  We know virtually nothing about it.

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  

Presumably the same way we were created spiritually.  What little we know is summed up well in the article about "intelligences" in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote

The word "intelligences" (plural) occurs frequently in LDS literature, having reference to the period of the premortal existence of mankind. The term has received two interpretations by writers within the Church: as the literal spirit children of Heavenly Parents and as individual entities existing prior to their spirit birth. Because latter-day revelation has not clarified the meaning of the term, a more precise interpretation is not possible at present.

The scriptural source for the word "intelligences" is the book of Abraham 3:21-22. The Lord instructed the patriarch Abraham regarding the premortal experiences of all who have been or ever will be upon the earth. Among those events was the Council in Heaven, at which the Father's Plan of Salvation for his children was discussed. Abraham wrote of this, "Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them" (Abr. 3:22-23). The Prophet Joseph Smith spoke of intelligences as follows: "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them" (TPJS, p. 354).

Concerning man's premortal existence, the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith, "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (D&C 93:29). "Intelligence," as used here, is singular, and it is not clear from this passage if it refers to individual, conscious identity. As noted, Abraham referred to the spirit offspring of God as organized intelligences, apparently using the word "intelligences" to mean "spirits." Church authorities have indicated that spirit birth was not the beginning. Spencer W. Kimball, then a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote, "Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father" (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 5, Salt Lake City, 1969). Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, speaking of people's divine origin as children of God, stated, "Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings" (Ensign 8 [Nov. 1978]:14). Bruce R. McConkie, an apostle, wrote: Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities (Abr. 3:22-24). Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge, power, and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence [MD, p. 387].

While the revelations leave no doubt as to the existence of intelligent matter prior to its being organized as spirits, speculation sometimes arises regarding the nature of premortal existence and whether there was individual identity and consciousness prior to birth as a spirit. Some hold that the terms "intelligence" and "intelligences" have reference to a form of prespirit conscious self-existence, which included individual identity, variety, and agency (so reasoned B. H. Roberts, pp. 401-423). Others maintain that while these characteristics, attributes, and conditions are eternal, they essentially came together for each individual at the spirit birth. The question of whether prespirit intelligence had individual identity and consciousness remains unanswered. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith gave this caution in 1936: Some of our writers have endeavored to explain what an intelligence is, but to do so is futile, for we have never been given any insight into this matter beyond what the Lord has fragmentarily revealed. We know, however, that there is something called intelligence which always existed. It is the real eternal part of man, which was not created or made. This intelligence combined with the spirit constitutes a spiritual identity or individual [p. 10].

No formal pronouncements have been made by the leading councils of the Church to clarify what additional meanings and attributes may be assigned to the word "intelligences," beyond that which identifies intelligences as spirit children of God.

That's about all that can be said.

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

Hard to say what "give birth" means in this context.

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  

From the Gospel Topics essay:

Quote

While there is no record of a formal revelation to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, some early Latter-day Saint women recalled that he personally taught them about a Mother in Heaven. The earliest published references to the doctrine appeared shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, in documents written by his close associates. The most notable expression of the idea is found in a poem by Eliza R. Snow, entitled “My Father in Heaven” and now known as the hymn “O My Father.” This text declares: “In the heav’ns are parents single? / No, the thought makes reason stare; / Truth is reason—truth eternal / Tells me I’ve a mother there.”

Subsequent Church leaders have affirmed the existence of a Mother in Heaven. In 1909, the First Presidency taught that “all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.” Susa Young Gates, a prominent leader in the Church, wrote in 1920 that Joseph Smith’s visions and teachings revealed the truth that “the divine Mother, [is] side by side with the divine Father.” And in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” issued in 1995, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles declared, “Each [person] is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.”

Ostler's restraint is understandable, though.

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Sure.  This sort of thing is way too conjectural for anyone to impose stringent parameters about what is and is not correct and doctrinal and true.

We just don't know very much about this topic.  In such circumstances, ambivalence and undecidedness are just fine.  Let's wait until we receive more light and knowledge.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

23 minutes ago, rongo said:

I'm not surprised that Ostler rejects Heavenly Mother.

I would want to read or hear what Ostler has said on the subject before reaching any conclusions.  I certainly don't think that he's rejecting the concept of exalted females or heavenly parents.  I would assume he's just questioning the mechanism, which, as you've pointed out, nothing substantial has been revealed.

[InCognitus]

Because so little has been revealed there is a lot of room for speculation on this topic.  And there are many nuances to the words "child", "son and daughter", and "father" that open it up even more.  

One speculation is as follows:   God creates by organizing eternal elements.  Other intelligences are co-eternal with God.  God is the most intelligent of all.  He organizes the intelligences, and they align with him and his plan, thus becoming his sons and daughters.  This is the means by which they are "created", and they become the "family of God" before the earth was created.  There is plenty of room for our heavenly mother in this speculation, but our spirit "birth" wouldn't be the same kind of birth we think of here in mortality. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Rivers said:

recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Found out from him or someone else?  Because if someone else, they could be wrong 

Quote

In a Sunstone presentation entitled ‘A Return to Logic’, which discusses Blake Ostler’s work, he was asked about the Heavenly Mother.  As a fan of Blake’s work I wanted to discuss his answer a little here, recognising that it was not a fully formulated or prepared response.  The major points of his answer seem to be: firstly, that he does not believe Joseph Smith taught this doctrine, secondly, he does believe that it is true, thirdly, we can have a relationship with her and fourthly, we should not talk about her or that relationship in explicit ways because it is sacred.  

https://www.mormonmatters.org/a-sacred-silence-blake-ostler-on-the-heavenly-mother/

[Calm]

I am wondering if you got the idea that Ostler rejects the belief from Petrey’s commentary where I believe he is misrepresenting Ostler’s position. 

Disturbing he doesn’t quote or give a reference besides somewhere in 3 massive volumes.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpeople/2012/11/the-heavenly-mommy-wars/

Edited May 18, 2021 by Calm

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I am wondering if you got the idea that Ostler rejects the belief from Petrey’s commentary where I believe he is misrepresenting Ostler’s position. 

Disturbing he doesn’t quote or give a reference besides somewhere in 3 massive volumes.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpeople/2012/11/the-heavenly-mommy-wars/

Strange.  Petrey calls Ostler a "prominent voice" and then backs this up by saying Ostler only mentions Her in a foot note in his 3 volume work.  That hardly sounds like a "prominent voice."

I don't understand why Petrey brings up Ostler at all.

Edited May 18, 2021 by ksfisher

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

Then how can She be a "mother"?  Or Father be a "father"?

Since we cannot possibly understand the "science" of how this allegedly happens, I think we need to face the fact that there must be some kind of parable operating here.

Certainly we have adopted children on earth who call someone "mother" even though perhaps the child is adopted.

This again I think raises the error of confusing spiritual descriptions with scientific descriptions.

I have no problem in conceiving   that we are in God's image, both male and female, and their children without knowing fully what those words allegedly represent.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

11 hours ago, Rivers said:

The teaching of spirit birth has always confused me.  How do resurrected beings reproduce to create spirit children?  Wouldn’t embodied beings give birth to other embodied beings? 

I recently discovered that Blake Ostler rejects both  spirit birth and heavenly mother since Joseph nor the scriptures teach those things.  Smith taught we are co-eternal with God.  I agree with Brother Ostler on the spirit birth thing.  But I don’t want to give up Heavenly Mother.  

Can I believe in Heavenly Mother without the spirit birth?  

I believe in Heavenly Mother(s) and spirit birth.  For just the reasons you describe I'm not convinced the "birth" follows the same pattern as mortal births (multiplied sorrow etc).  But I also don't think the organization of our intelligences and spirit matter didn't happen.  And I'm not bothered what method our Heavenly parents used.

[The Nehor]

Well, we can go off how other ultra-powerful beings reproduce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyVlaWrwl4k

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Well, we can go off how other ultra-powerful beings reproduce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyVlaWrwl4k

 

I should have known you would post it if I didn’t...got distracted by other Q scenes.  I seriously always go to that moment anytime we hit this discussion about spirit birth. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I should have known you would post it if I didn’t...got distracted by other Q scenes.  I seriously always go to that moment anytime we hit this discussion about spirit birth. 

Can I say I was excited when I saw him mentioning he will be in the next season of Picard......because I am.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, we can go off how other ultra-powerful beings reproduce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyVlaWrwl4k

 

John DeLancie and Susie Plakson are brilliant.

I find the Q episode on immortality one of the best arguments for eternal progression there is.  Sorry Elder McConkie.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by JLHPROF