'Lazy learner'

[Fair Dinkum]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:03 AM, cinepro said:

Again, you clearly misread what Nelson said. He explicitly says there are (at least) two types of people who struggle with faith:

1. Lazy learners

2. Lax disciples

It's right there in the quote that you're posting. Why do you think people are hyper fixated on the "lazy learner" category, and totally ignoring the "lax disciple" category?

To be clear, I don't necessarily agree with this or anything else Nelson says. I'm just mystified by the energy with which some exMos are promoting a false narrative about what he actually said. I mean, you're actually posting the quote (which is far more than most people dare do), and saying he said one thing when the quote clearly says something else.

I'll also toss out there that I've read the CES Letter, and while I don't begrudge anyone from leaving because they've learned the things taught in the CES Letter, I would suggest the degree to which the CES Letter formed the foundation of knowledge that led someone out of the Church would also indicate the degree to which they are a lazy learner.

You are correct in that I interpret Nelson's comment entirely different from your interpretation. 

Quote

“Your mountains may be loneliness, doubt, illness, or other personal problems. Your mountains will vary, and yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith."

Hmmm...Nelson refers to a group of members who suffer from loneliness, doubt, illness and other personal problems who's mountain will vary but then singles out those who doubt. He is referring to a collective single group of individuals who have lost faith in the church and not two separate groups as you claim. He specifically targets those who doubt by calling that group "Lazy learners and lax disciples" to describe those who have lost faith.   He is specifically calling this one group that has lost faith as being both lazy and lax. Again the double bind, where because that group of members received answers to their questions that did not support faith, Nelson needs to minimize their efforts and categorize them as lazy and lax.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[nuclearfuels]

On 4/5/2021 at 9:59 PM, bluebell said:

most of us have been lazy learners and lax diciples sometimes, haven't we?  

Yes. I have been. Too much Netflix, not enough serving.

Depending on the challenges we're struggling with, they all do require faith. 

It takes faith to call a mental health counselor and take Rx if necessary, or to see a marriage counselor or to continue dieting and exercising when one sees no results. 

Doubts about Joseph Smith, Brigham, the BoM, etc. NUmbers 22: Balaam and the ***: God spoke through a donkey. To Moses He spoke through a bush. To me, those seem more peculiar than a seer stone in a hat. 

* I also think President Nelson was spot on when he discussed how priesthood blessings had become filled with counsel, advice, suggestions but not revelation, inspiration, etc.  For the record, President Hinckley's reprovings in Preisthood session of Gen. Conf. were much less gentle

Edited June 21, 2021 by nuclearfuels

[CA Steve]

On 6/19/2021 at 10:03 AM, cinepro said:

I'll also toss out there that I've read the CES Letter, and while I don't begrudge anyone from leaving because they've learned the things taught in the CES Letter, I would suggest the degree to which the CES Letter formed the foundation of knowledge that led someone out of the Church would also indicate the degree to which they are a lazy learner.

I could not disagree with this more.

AFAIK conversion in the church is not based on nor maintained by knowledge of what is discussed in the CES letter. So someone who encounters such information for the first time, regardless of whether they are a lifelong member or a convert, isn't a "lazy learner" per se, they may never have had any reason to investigate claims they didn't know existed. Now if one were to openly acknowledge they knew there were issues (not just rumors causally dismissed as anti-Mormon propaganda) and had avoided them up until encountering the CES letter, in that case, such a label might be applicable.

Our conversion process is to "pray about it", not "research out all the conflicting history."

Edited June 21, 2021 by CA Steve

[Fair Dinkum]

On 6/17/2021 at 6:10 PM, bluebell said:

How do you know Pres. Nelson is pre supposing that?  Did he say that somewhere?

Well if you honestly think that President Nelson believes that someone can make a sincere effort to know if the church is true and after doing all they can in that effort come away with just the opposite conclusion, I'll gladly modify my statement.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I could not disagree with this more.

AFAIK conversion in the church is not based on nor maintained by knowledge of what is discussed in the CES letter. So someone who encounters such information for the first time, regardless of whether they are a lifelong member or a convert, isn't a "lazy learner" per se, they may never have had any reason to investigate claims they didn't know existed. Now if one were to openly acknowledge they knew there were issues (not just rumors causally dismissed as anti-Mormon propaganda) and had avoided them up until encountering the CES letter, in that case, such a label might be applicable.

Our conversion process is to "pray about it", not "research out all the conflicting history."

I read his post differently (but you could be the one who is reading cinepro right, hopefully he'll clarify).

I read him as saying that leaving after reading the CES letter, without doing any of your own research and just relying on what the letter says and assuming it's all true and in context, is being a lazy learner.

Not that not having known the information beforehand means you were a lazy learner.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Well if you honestly think that President Nelson believes that someone can make a sincere effort to know if the church is true and after doing all they can in that effort come away with jsut the opposite conclusion, I'll gladly modify my statement.

I don't know if he believes that, which is why I didn't claim that he does.

But you did make a claim about him presupposing something.  Do you have any reference for that or is it just your opinion?

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I read his post differently (but you could be the one who is reading cinepro right, hopefully he'll clarify).

I read him as saying that leaving after reading the CES letter, without doing any of your own research and just relying on what the letter says and assuming it's all true and in context, is being a lazy learner.

Not that not having known the information beforehand means you were a lazy learner.

I agree it could be what he was trying to say, if so I would find that even worse. Conversion does not require such an investigation, why should deciding to leave require it? If we join the church because we feel it is right, can't we leave it because we feel it is wrong? And, wouldn't either case be examples of the same process, in which case I do not believe President Nelson would like to label those joining the church for simply feeling it is the right thing to do as lazy learners.

Edited June 21, 2021 by CA Steve

[Fair Dinkum]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't know if he believes that, which is why I didn't claim that he does.

But you did make a claim about him presupposing something.  Do you have any reference for that or is it just your opinion?

We are speaking of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints right?  Of course he believes that if a individual "ask(s) with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, that [God]will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”  this is why he accuses those who fail to receive this promised confirmation, lazy learners and lax disciples because there is only ONE conclusion that he can find acceptable.  He surely can't say,  'Oh yeah and concluding that the church is not what it claims to be is also a viable alternative conclusion too'.  No President Nelson can only conclude that there is only one conclusion and if it wasn't achieved then you must be lazy or lax because surely if you had been hard working and conscientious in your approach to gaining your promised confirmation you would have come to same "authorize" conclusion he did.  In other words, you either receive the same confirmation he did that the church is true or you're a lazy learner and a lax disciple. Thus the double bind or circular logic.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[2BizE]

32 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

We are speaking of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints right?  Of course he believes that if a individual "ask(s) with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, that [God]will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”  this is why he accuses those who fail to receive this promised confirmation, lazy learners and lax disciples. He surely can't say,  'Oh yeah and concluding that the church is not what it claims to be is also a viable alternative conclusion too'.  No President Nelson can only conclude that there is only one conclusion and if it wasn't achieved then you must be lazy or lax because surely if you had been hard working and conscientious in your approach to gaining your promised confirmation you would have come to the "authorize" conclusion. 

Lax disciple here.  I have not received a witness that the church is true….yet I am not a lazy learner as I have spent decades studying the gospel primarily from faithful perspectives, but in recent years from a perspective of desiring truth over faithfulness to the corporation….

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I agree it could be what he was trying to say, if so I would find that even worse. Conversion does not require such an investigation, why should deciding to leave require it? If we join the church because we feel it is right, can't we leave it because we feel it is wrong? And, wouldn't either case be examples of the same process, in which case I do not believe President Nelson would like to label those joining the church for simply feeling it is the right thing to do as lazy learners.

Knowing cinepro from over a decade of reading his posts, I don't think he is saying that deciding to leave requires investigation.  Cinepro seems like the type that wouldn't call anyone out for leaving, regardless of their reasons.  I wouldn't be surprised if cinepro's position is a hearty "leave for whatever reason you want".

But don't leave because you read something on the internet and are taking some guy's word for it being true and then pretend that that's not a lazy way of gaining information.  Because that's the definition of a lazy learner.

Conversion to the gospel absolutely requires investigation.  Not into history or quote accuracy and context but it does require someone to put in the time, to read the scriptures, to spend time in prayer, to attend the meetings, to build a relationship with God and the spirit.  The backbone of conversion in the church--what the church focuses on when someone is learning about the gospel--is to do the work to find out for themselves.  No one should take anyone's word for it or just assume it's true because some person told you it is.  Do the work. 

Pres. Nelson is specifically saying in this quote, if you don't do the work to find out for yourself, you will fall away.  You can't depend on someone else to do the work for you.  You can't be lazy about it and just assume what you are learning is true.

[Fair Dinkum]

9 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Lax disciple here.  I have not received a witness that the church is true….yet I am not a lazy learner as I have spent decades studying the gospel primarily from faithful perspectives, but in recent years from a perspective of desiring truth over faithfulness to the corporation….

So your approach to putting Moroni's  promise to the test was causal and insincere?

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

We are speaking of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints right?  Of course he believes that if a individual "ask(s) with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, that [God]will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost”  this is why he accuses those who fail to receive this promised confirmation, lazy learners and lax disciples. He surely can't say,  'Oh yeah and concluding that the church is not what it claims to be is also a viable alternative conclusion too'.  No President Nelson can only conclude that there is only one conclusion and if it wasn't achieved then you must be lazy or lax because surely if you had been hard working and conscientious in your approach to gaining your promised confirmation you would have come to the "authorize" conclusion. 

Lots of mind reading and assumptions--and just plain making stuff up--going on in this post.  Not much I can say in response that you would be willing to consider so probably time to just agree to disagree. 

 

 

[Fair Dinkum]

39 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Lots of mind reading and assumptions--and just plain making stuff up--going on in this post.  Not much I can say in response that you would be willing to consider so probably time to just agree to disagree. 

 

 

I have a lot of respect for you Bluebell,  so answer me this simple question:  Do you believe that President Nelson believes that a person could ask sincerely with real intent and put Moroni's promise to the test and receive an answer that the church is "not" true?

Edited June 21, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I have a lot of respect for you Bluebell,  so answer me this simple question:  Do you believe that President Nelson believes that a person could ask sincerely with real intent and put Moroni's promise to the test and conclude that the church is "not" true?

Pres Nelson has a medical background. I would not be surprised at all if he has personally encountered individuals who for whatever reason are unable to sense the Spirit or recognize it in the noise of all the other sensations they are receiving and therefore decide the Church is not true. 

[Fair Dinkum]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Pres Nelson has a medical background. I would not be surprised at all if he has personally encountered individuals who for whatever reason are unable to sense the Spirit or recognize it in the noise of all the other sensations they are receiving and therefore decide the Church is not true. 

So Calm, you are saying it is possible for a person to apply Moroni's promise and receive an answer that the church is not true?

[MrShorty]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Pres Nelson has a medical background. I would not be surprised at all if he has personally encountered individuals who for whatever reason are unable to sense the Spirit or recognize it in the noise of all the other sensations they are receiving and therefore decide the Church is not true. 

Is that the only way that such a scenario would occur -- background noise prevents hearing the Spirit? Do we think there is any chance that the Spirit could reasonably clearly tell someone not to join the Church?

While serving a mission, we met a woman who seemed to already have a good connection to the Spirit. We invited her to read the BoM and pray about it and continue to meet with us. After a couple of meetings, as she continued to read the BoM and pray about it, she claims that she got a fairly distinct impression from what she believed was the Spirit to stop reading the BoM and stop meeting with the missionaries (I don't recall if she specifically said that her impression included the idea that the BoM was "false" exactly). Since then, I have encountered a few people who claim to have a good relationship with the Spirit who also claim that said Spirit gave them the impression that the BoM is not true or that the Church's stance on LGBT issues is wrong or other such contradictions to what the Church teaches. Do we believe that the same Spirit that confirms the truth of certain Church teachings to us can also give someone else the opposite impression(s)?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Is that the only way that such a scenario would occur -- background noise prevents hearing the Spirit? Do we think there is any chance that the Spirit could reasonably clearly tell someone not to join the Church?

I am open to the Lord telling someone not to join the Church and that being interpreted as the Church isn’t true. I am not going to mindread Pres Nelson. I don’t know if Pres. Nelson is or not, but it seems highly probable to me he is aware of at least what I described.  It is kind of a nobrainer if you see it develop, though perhaps my own experience with medication numbing spiritual feelings along with other feelings and sensations helped. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Calm

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

Lax disciple here.  I have not received a witness that the church is true….yet I am not a lazy learner as I have spent decades studying the gospel primarily from faithful perspectives, but in recent years from a perspective of desiring truth over faithfulness to the corporation….

Since the essence of the Gospel is that God is our Father, Jesus is the Christ who atoned for our sins and God and His Son desire that God’s children be exalted, would you mind sharing what results your decades of study have produced with result to those elements of the Gospel?

And if your study has resulted in a belief and faith in Deity, and you would permit me one more question, would you mind sharing what promptings you have received from Deity when you inquire “what lack I yet.”

Thank you.

[let’s roll]

4 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Is that the only way that such a scenario would occur -- background noise prevents hearing the Spirit? Do we think there is any chance that the Spirit could reasonably clearly tell someone not to join the Church?

While serving a mission, we met a woman who seemed to already have a good connection to the Spirit. We invited her to read the BoM and pray about it and continue to meet with us. After a couple of meetings, as she continued to read the BoM and pray about it, she claims that she got a fairly distinct impression from what she believed was the Spirit to stop reading the BoM and stop meeting with the missionaries (I don't recall if she specifically said that her impression included the idea that the BoM was "false" exactly). Since then, I have encountered a few people who claim to have a good relationship with the Spirit who also claim that said Spirit gave them the impression that the BoM is not true or that the Church's stance on LGBT issues is wrong or other such contradictions to what the Church teaches. Do we believe that the same Spirit that confirms the truth of certain Church teachings to us can also give someone else the opposite impression(s)?

Thanks for sharing this.  I’m curious how you responded to the woman, do you remember?

If someone shared that thought with me I think I would ask them if they would share with me what they were doing to try to heed the Savior’s invitation to “come, follow me.”  And then perhaps ask what impressions she gets when she prays and asks how she might better heed that invitation.  My experience has been that sincere seekers of the Christ receive a wide variety of impressions on how to increase in faith and discipleship.

There were two prophets in Jerusalem, one was told to stay and one to leave.  I believe both understood well.

Edited June 22, 2021 by let’s roll

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I have a lot of respect for you Bluebell,  so answer me this simple question:  Do you believe that President Nelson believes that a person could ask sincerely with real intent and put Moroni's promise to the test and receive an answer that the church is "not" true?

I’m wondering why this thread is focusing on justifying a belief in the restored gospel by being persuaded to believe through intellectual means when President Nelson’s message clearly focuses exercising faith in Christ by making a conscious decision to choose to believe in spite of one’s doubts.

“Second, choose to believe in Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God the Father and His Beloved Son or the validity of the Restoration or the veracity of Joseph Smith’s divine calling as a prophet, choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters. Allow the Lord to lead you on your journey of spiritual discovery.”

 

 

Edited June 21, 2021 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I have a lot of respect for you Bluebell,  so answer me this simple question:  Do you believe that President Nelson believes that a person could ask sincerely with real intent and put Moroni's promise to the test and receive an answer that the church is "not" true?

I honestly do not know if he believes that or not. I sincerely do not think he has ever said anything that proves he doesn’t or couldn’t believe it. 

[2BizE]

16 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So your approach to putting Moroni's  promise to the test was causal and insincere?

To the contrary.  I have prayed and studied for decades to receive a confirmation of the truth of the church, and have not. I’ve served faithfully, mission, callings, married in temple…I was all in…checked all the boxes…but I must be a lax learner because Moroni’s promise hasn’t worked.

[Bede]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:44 AM, 2BizE said:

To the contrary.  I have prayed and studied for decades to receive a confirmation of the truth of the church, and have not. I’ve served faithfully, mission, callings, married in temple…I was all in…checked all the boxes…but I must be a lax learner because Moroni’s promise hasn’t worked.

Same here.

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:18 AM, Bede said:

Same here.

I've never even tried. God seems to be OK with the fact that I'm a practical learner and a sceptic by nature, so He's made it possible for me to learn things hands-on.

[Tacenda]

Keep reading several posts that the church has changed descriptions from years past about the beliefs of LDS becoming Gods and having their own planet. Here's a meme, sorry for it before hand. Don't hate me because I post meme's.