Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3

[Tacenda]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't understand this mindset.  Faith/belief is the sine qua non of the Church.  As Joseph Smith put it: “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations and where is our religion? We have none.” (HC, 2:52.)

As I have said before, I don't want members to leave the Church. I want them in it. I want everyone in it. But we are a community of faith. We cohere around faith.  Without faith in the restored truths and revelations and authority, we are not a community.

The Church teaches this.  Virtually everyone who wants to join the Church can do so.  But how would you imagine that would work if there was no expectation or requirement to share our beliefs, our standards of behavior, and so on?

I am reminded of a scene in the 1983 BBC adaptation of Jane Eyre, in which Rochester speaks with Jane, somewhat obscurely, about his life experiences and his frustrations:

Here is the dialogue:

If you know the story, you know what happens next, and then after that, and at the end.  Rochester was, during the above conversation, incapable of forming any meaningful attachment to Jane because, well, he wasn't ready or willing to repent or reform himself.

So it is, I think, with each of us.  As Pres. David O. McKay put it: “The purpose of the gospel is … to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature.”

King Benjamin also had some good things to say in Mosiah 3:19:

And the Savior in Luke 5:31-32:

The Rich Young Man was good in many respects, but nevertheless refused the Lord's invitation because "he had great possessions."  (Matt. 19:22.)

Paul did not convert and join the Church until he had repented and began to obey the Lord's commands:

Alma the Younger.  Corianton.  There are many such examples.

To join the body of Christ one must accept Christ.  Acceptance through faith, repentance, baptism, obedience, and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks Smac, I do still believe in God/Christ but can't take the Mormon out of this girl and join any church outside of my own. But enough about me, haha. Thanks for you time though! 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Tacenda

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks Smac, I do still believe in God/Christ but can't take the Mormon out of this girl and join any church outside of my own. But enough about me, haha. Thanks for you time though! 

Totally understand that. I still feel like an ethnic Mormon.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

   Have you ever considered religion, all religion, helps people cope with the thought of dying and rotting in the ground? If that's true, then religion is a form of therapy, a coping mechanism, if it is, why deny or rail against someones coping mechanisms? 

  Does religion have to be 100 percent true to be beneficial? Is there a percentage of mysticism in religion that would be acceptable to you, maybe 20 percent, or even 30percent? 

Lastly, I've known some really good and moral atheist. I've also known some who are obsessed with proving religiosity wrong, so much so, their quest has almost become a "religion" to them. Have you experienced that in others? 

Bravo!!

And the main point is that, pro or con, NOTHING IS PROVABLE ANYWAY!! 

None of us were there, we don't know what "really happened", or if these are stories with proven value psychologically!

Every political ideology is the same!

"Everyone believe xyz and the world will be perfect!"

"If it wasn't for those other guys the world would be perfect!"

There have been philosophers who have taken this kind of pragmatic approach, one of which was Pascal.

Google "Pascal's Wager"

Edited May 7, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Teancum]

19 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Methinks Thou dost tap dance too much.  The foregoing seems to be directly at odds with:

 

 

I am not sue I care what you think about my "conflicting" statements.  The actually are not at odds at all since we were talking about something entirely different than what you are commenting on.

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Bravo!!

And the main point is that, pro or con, NOTHING IS PROVABLE ANYWAY!! 

None of us were there, we don't know what "really happened", or if these are stories with proven value psychologically!

Every political ideology is the same!

"Everyone believe xyz and the world will be perfect!"

"If it wasn't for those other guys the world would be perfect!"

There have been philosophers who have taken this kind of pragmatic approach, one of which was Pascal.

---more in a minute 

This would all be wonderful if one could openly approach their life in the LDS Church this way.  

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

This would all be wonderful if one could openly approach their life in the LDS Church this way.  

Thanks, I agree of course!

I think we have the very best model/story set which the spirit will confirm as "true".

Forget the history as irrelevant to the perfect paradigm/theory/story

It is unknowable 

Edited May 7, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It's really hard to have a discussion when one participant is hell-bent on putting the worst spin on things and then turning the dial up to 11. 

I was serious when I declared my determination to be able to look Joseph in the eye one day and tell him I stood up for him when there was occasion for it. Thus, for me, it is something beyond a mere intellectual exercise when the conversation is laced with unsavory remarks about the prophet. Perhaps you should bear that in mind about me, just as you tell us we should remember that you don’t believe he was a prophet. 
 

But at the end of the day, you are in total control over whether or not you interact with me. As I look back through the notifications, I note that it was you who engaged me on this thread, not the other way around. 

[poptart]

If groups like this were to really take off, what's the chances they'd be excommunicated like the FLDS?  Can't help think this is one reason why these people act like a lot of other alt right/alt left groups.  Many of the ones I've seen communicate in memes and hang out via discord and the deep web.  Good luck pinning them down if that's the case.

Edited May 7, 2021 by poptart

[jkwilliams]

32 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I was serious when I declared my determination to be able to look Joseph in the eye one day and tell him I stood up for him when there was occasion for it. Thus, for me, it is something beyond a mere intellectual exercise when the conversation is laced with unsavory remarks about the prophet. Perhaps you should bear that in mind about me, just as you tell us we should remember that you don’t believe he was a prophet. 
 

But at the end of the day, you are in total control over whether or not you interact with me. As I look back through the notifications, I note that it was you who engaged me on this thread, not the other way around. 

You’re right. I’m sorry things  went south like that. Shouldn’t have said anything. 

[Chum]

27 minutes ago, poptart said:

Can't help think this is one reason why these people act like a lot of other alt right/alt left groups. 

I think the challenge for us is when the powerful and alluring aspects of this mindset finds widespread root in our ward.

Unless I am missing something, there is no meaningful remedy, no helpful mitigation, if this sort of poison has manifested itself in our sacred spaces. Our choices are endure it or not.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Totally understand that. I still feel like an ethnic Mormon.

I hate to keep commenting on the matter, sorry ahead of time.  But wanted to share that my oldest sister, who hasn't been active for many, many years and never went to the temple or had anything to do with the church, she still believes in the church. OTOH, I had been active since I was married in the temple in '84. She believes and I have struggles to believe, she drinks wine and enjoys her time in Cali. She wasn't a slacker as far as volunteering and being a good citizen and neighbor though, she's very involved in her community. So how is God going to judge she and I? I think he's going to look fondly on my sister for all of these years and how she approaches life, she speaks to Him on a daily basis and even wears a side-way cross. So all of these years of my trying to live a righteous life in Mormonism, I believe she did it much better than me. And look where I'm left. In a dang hole that I struggle to get out of in understanding where to go forward. 

No need to reply JK, unless you want or have the time, it's just put me in a conundrum I guess. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hate to keep commenting on the matter, sorry ahead of time.  But wanted to share that my oldest sister, who hasn't been active for many, many years and never went to the temple or had anything to do with the church, she still believes in the church. OTOH, I had been active since I was married in the temple in '84. She believes and I have struggles to believe, she drinks wine and enjoys her time in Cali. She wasn't a slacker as far as volunteering and being a good citizen and neighbor though, she's very involved in her community. So how is God going to judge she and I? I think he's going to look fondly on my sister for all of these years and how she approaches life, she speaks to Him on a daily basis and even wears a side-way cross. So all of these years of my trying to live a righteous life in Mormonism, I believe she did it much better than me. And look where I'm left. In a dang hole that I struggle to get out of in understanding where to go forward. 

No need to reply JK, unless you want or have the time, it's just put me in a conundrum I guess. 

If there is a just God He/She/It will hopefully judge us based on what we understood. All my life I have believed that God will judge us by what we did with the knowledge or understanding we had. I don't believe God cares so much about the hoops we jumped through but rather the kind of person we have become. It struck me years ago that the covenants you make in the temple have very little to do with being a good, kind, decent person. If this life is a test, as we were taught, I would hope it's a test of whether we loved and served and helped our neighbors. The great commandment, after all, is love. If God cares more about whether I drink coffee than the love that I share in this life, I don't really want to worship that kind of God. 

[cacheman]

8 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

 Have you ever considered religion, all religion, helps people cope with the thought of dying and rotting in the ground? If that's true, then religion is a form of therapy, a coping mechanism, if it is, why deny or rail against someones coping mechanisms? 

  Does religion have to be 100 percent true to be beneficial? Is there a percentage of mysticism in religion that would be acceptable to you, maybe 20 percent, or even 30percent? 

Lastly, I've known some really good and moral atheist. I've also known some who are obsessed with proving religiosity wrong, so much so, their quest has almost become a "religion" to them. Have you experienced that in others? 

 

Hi AtlanticMike,

I can't answer for Teancum, but I'll answer your question as it relates to myself.  Yes.  I've considered the benefits of religion as a form of therapy or a coping mechanism.  I also acknowledge the role of religion in promoting a lot of good behaviors and charitable actions.  In fact, I am fine with anyone believing in anything mystical or religious...... except when those beliefs cause unnecessary harm.  At that point, I feel that I should say something.  I don't know any non-theists personally that are on a 'religious' quest to prove religiosity wrong.  But, it wouldn't surprise me if there are people like that.

Now let me ask you a question.

Have you ever considered that unbelief in a particular religion, or all religions, can help people cope with the thought of dying and rotting in the ground?  If that's true, then that unbelief is a form of therapy or a coping mechanism for some people.  If it is, why subscribe to a belief system whose scriptures and leaders rail against this coping mechanism?  Why sustain religious leaders that consistently describe personal apostasy as resulting from sin, bad character traits, immorality, laziness, etc. 

FYI - this isn't a gotcha question.  I thought you posed a good question, and  I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts on my similar questions.

-cacheman

 

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

Have you ever considered that unbelief in a particular religion, or all religions, can help people cope with the thought of dying and rotting in the ground?

Yes. I think "unbelief" for some can be more beneficial and healthy mentally while here on Earth. Let's face it, some people get burnt out on religion. Some have terrible experiences with authoritarian institutions and have to just get away. Also, I have actually met people who hope there isn't an afterlife, and have said if there is, they don't want to spend the afterlife with family. We are our lived experiences and some people would not do good under the demands of Mormonism or any other demanding religion.

   

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

If that's true, then that unbelief is a form of therapy or a coping mechanism for some people

Correct. 

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

If it is, why subscribe to a belief system whose scriptures and leaders rail against this coping mechanism? 

First, most institutions, especially religious ones, are going to protect their belief systems, their way of life. We are a trible species, it's in our DNA. We're always going to gather in groups and take comfort in shared beliefs.

    Also, the reason humans will go to church and sit in pews for hours on end is because life is way to complicated to figure out in one lifetime. I don't care if we're talking about Mormons, Jews, Catholics Muslims and so on, people are drawn to figures who can simplify life's unanswerable questions. That's why we will subscribe to a belief  or leaders who rail against all kinds of differing opinions. Facts or factual evidence isn't the most important category when talking about or investigating religion. And facts aren't the most important when living a religious philosophy.

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

Why sustain religious leaders that consistently describe personal apostasy as resulting from sin, bad character traits, immorality, laziness, etc. 

Hope and faith.

Also, no matter if it's right or wrong, a large percentage of people feel like they aren't worthy, or, are just bad miserable people. A lot of these people are drawn to religion because it offers them a road map to follow all the way to the grave and beyond. Yes, most people sustain there religious leaders because they believe they speak for God, but I also think many people sustain because these leaders are their compass to the road map I described. 

    You said apostasy, sin, bad character traits, immorality, laziness, these are all words used to make sure you stay on the straight and narrow, to make sure you don't veer too far off the path. I guess you could say they're caution signs. Why sustain leaders that use these words?? Because nothing is certain in this life and nothing is even close to being perfect, not even religious leaders. 

 

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

FYI - this isn't a gotcha question.  I thought you posed a good question, and  I'm genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts on my similar questions.

I didn't think it was a gotcha question. Thanks for asking me my own questions to teancum, that was fun.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So how is God going to judge she and I?

The Final Judgment is not a competition. We will be judged against the gifts given us by God, including the gift to believe, and what we have done with them, what we have become and helped others to become...the whole talent parable is apt here. 
 

And I think we will be judging ourselves and the Lord will be gently correcting most of us for ignoring our successes if it is anything like it is now, imo. 
 

Maybe your sister got some of your share of the believing gift as well as her own.  

Edited May 7, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hate to keep commenting on the matter, sorry ahead of time.  But wanted to share that my oldest sister, who hasn't been active for many, many years and never went to the temple or had anything to do with the church, she still believes in the church. OTOH, I had been active since I was married in the temple in '84. She believes and I have struggles to believe, she drinks wine and enjoys her time in Cali. She wasn't a slacker as far as volunteering and being a good citizen and neighbor though, she's very involved in her community. So how is God going to judge she and I? I think he's going to look fondly on my sister for all of these years and how she approaches life, she speaks to Him on a daily basis and even wears a side-way cross. So all of these years of my trying to live a righteous life in Mormonism, I believe she did it much better than me. And look where I'm left. In a dang hole that I struggle to get out of in understanding where to go forward. 

No need to reply JK, unless you want or have the time, it's just put me in a conundrum I guess. 

Never let anyone make you feel less of a person, less of worth, because you followed your conscience where it led you. That’s a mark of character, not a flaw. 

[poptart]

5 hours ago, Chum said:

I think the challenge for us is when the powerful and alluring aspects of this mindset finds widespread root in our ward.

Unless I am missing something, there is no meaningful remedy, no helpful mitigation, if this sort of poison has manifested itself in our sacred spaces. Our choices are endure it or not.

This is why I'm being very careful with my associations nowadays, minute I saw LDS leadership showing kindness to LGBTQ people and the recent stuff on racism I figured there'd be a backlash of some sort.  WASPs do not let loose of power, i'm amazed Catholics have gone as far as they have.  In red states I bet this will catch on quick.  I agree, i see no remedy.  You have a population that was used to privilege of varying degrees and now they're being stripped of it, or at least they feel like they are.  

Times like this that I'm glad that I'm also a baptised Catholic, despite being a freemason I demitted out of my old lodge a while ago due to politics.  I have family who are still in and like almost everything else in this country even they're seeing stuff like this creep in.  If all else fails I'm going to just go to confession, throw it all away, join a third order and just call it good.  Have to admit, I am quite disgusted with how politics in this country are turning out, this is not what the USA was supposed to be about.  I get it, this is how it's always been.  I mean, look where I'm posting you poor people were almost genocided by people who didn't like men like Joseph Smith trying to make things better and call out the corruption the second great awakening caused.  We should all be able to meet at the table as equals and work together to make this world a better place as children of God.  Seriously I don't get it, it's not that hard.  This stuff saddens me.  

[AtlanticMike]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So how is God going to judge she and I? I think he's going to look fondly on my sister for all of these years and how she approaches life, she speaks to Him on a daily basis and even wears a side-way cross. So all of these years of my trying to live a righteous life in Mormonism, I believe she did it much better than me. And look where I'm left. In a dang hole that I struggle to get out of in understanding where to go forward

I just posted a song for you in the music thread. Keep your head up!

[Chum]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

This is why I'm being very careful with my associations nowadays, minute I saw LDS leadership showing kindness to LGBTQ people and the recent stuff on racism I figured there'd be a backlash of some sort.  WASPs do not let loose of power, i'm amazed Catholics have gone as far as they have.  In red states I bet this will catch on quick.  I agree, i see no remedy.  You have a population that was used to privilege of varying degrees and now they're being stripped of it, or at least they feel like they are. 

The commiseration is kind and appreciated.

I've only lived in one ward and my perspective is predictably limited. Thru that small lens, what I see looks indistinguishable from history. Specifically, that malevolence that once banded many Americans together for strength, explicitly to elevate vulnerable Americans into an impossible threat that only their strength can fight.

If history holds, what I see has similar markers to a past rogue war, one waged under an abolutist flag of preservation.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Chum