Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

What will you tell the Lord when He asks you why you walked away from the true church

I'm sorry someone asked you this. If you and I were friends and you told me you left the church, I would ask you what you do on Sundays now, then ask if I could join you one day.  I would go out of my way to make sure your departure from the church  wouldn't affect our friendship. That's what Jesus would do if he was walking the earth today. A lot of people will never understand what love one another  really means.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm sorry someone asked you this. If you and I were friends and you told me you left the church, I would ask you what you do on Sundays now, then ask if I could join you one day.  I would go out of my way to make sure your departure from the church  wouldn't affect our friendship. That's what Jesus would do if he was walking the earth today. A lot of people will never understand what love one another  really means.

Thankfully most of my LDS friends have been good about things. Just the odd ones here and there. You find out who your real friends are. 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

That's what Jesus would do if he was walking the earth today.

I am curious as to where in the scriptures Jesus went and joined those who left him so that nothing changed in their relationship.  Serious question here.  I am thinking about what he said about those who chose to follow him no more and not seeing your interpretation,  please help me see it.

This is what I think of in the case of someone leaving the Gospel and how Jesus would react:

Quote

59Jesus said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. 60On hearing it, many of His disciples said, “This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that His disciples were grumbling about this teaching, Jesus asked them, “Does this offend you? 62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?

63The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64However, there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)

65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”

66From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him.

https://biblehub.com/bsb/john/6.htm

Or this...when someone doesn’t understand or misrepresented what he was teaching, rejected what he was teaching, he didn’t just pat them on the back and acted in friendship...he corrected them:

Quote

12Once again, Jesus spoke to the people and said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”

13So the Pharisees said to Him, “You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not valid.”

14Jesus replied, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is valid, because I know where I came from and where I am going. But you do not know where I came from or where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16But even if I do judge, My judgment is true, because I am not alone; I am with the Father who sent Me.e 17Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.f 18I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”

https://biblehub.com/bsb/john/8.htm

Not saying those of us with less perfect understanding of the gospel or how it affects others, why people make the choices they do, etc. should be making judgements like the above, but Jesus is in a different category when it comes to both judgment and advice giving and seeing what people need and will be like in the future.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I sometimes imagine those same people lining up to say “I told you so.”

I think those inclined to such will be in a different sort of line and experiencing their own disappointment in themselves...if they already comprehend where they went wrong.

I suspect “I told you so” is a right reserved by God.

[AtlanticMike]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am curious as to where in the scriptures Jesus went and joined those who left him so that nothing changed in their relationship.

Jesus went out of his way to upset the Pharisees and preach to sinners and people the Pharisees found "less than". Jesus preached about leaving the ninety nine to go after the one. The Jesus I know, if walking the earth today, would persuade through love and kindness.

 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think those inclined to such will be in a different sort of line and experiencing their own disappointment in themselves...if they already comprehend where they went wrong.

I suspect “I told you so” is a right reserved by God.

I always figured it would be between me and God. What others think doesn’t count for much. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/26/2021 at 4:55 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

There will be no divine truth to the effect that Joseph Smith was a false prophet or that he lied about his divine calling. 

 

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

You are going to be very disappointed someday.....

I’m more concerned about the prospect of having to explain to the prophet why I didn’t stand up for and declare his divine calling when I had occasion to do so. 
 

Added later: Perhaps that’s why I’m empathizing with Hank Smith in this particular dust-up. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s hard to imagine that the same Being who inspired the Constitution of the United States, a system of strictly limited government that enthrones God given freedom and liberty, personal autonomy and responsibility, and maximizes the nobility of hard work and individual initiative, would simultaneously support a godless, tyrannical system of all powerful “government” that enslaves the sons and daughters of God and and relegates them to the status of subservient and dispensable wards of the state. 

It is hard to imagine the Jesus of the NT being an autocratic capitalist elitist who promotes policies that favor the wealthy over the poor and middle class. By the way a social democracy is not a "tyrannical system of all powerful “government” that enslaves the sons and daughters of God and and relegates them to the status of subservient and dispensable wards of the state."

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

I’m more concerned about the prospect of having to explain to the prophet why I didn’t stand up for and declare his divine calling when I had occasion to do so. 
 

Added later: Perhaps that’s why I’m empathizing with Hank Smith in this particular dust-up. 

Personally I am not worried about anything Joseph Smith has to say but I have a bunch to say to him. Of course we differ in our views of the man.

[Kenngo1969]

I wonder, what's going to happen to folks when they meet all of these allegedly-imaginary people (Nephi, Moroni, Peter, James, and John, et cetera)?  Are they going to be like the M&M's and Santa Claus were when they met each other?  "They do exist!" [Whereupon a loud thud can be heard as they hit the floor after fainting, and someone, like the other M&M did to Santa, will say, "Uuuuhhh, Teancum?"]

Ah, well.  Thanks for reminding me of one of my all-time favorite Christmastime commercials!   Cheers!   Carry on!

Edited May 6, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Personally I am not worried about anything Joseph Smith has to say but I have a bunch to say to him. Of course we differ in our views of the man.

Oohhhhh, how I would love to be "a fly on the wall" for that conversation!   (Don't forget Matthew 7:1-2, though! )

[Teancum]

45 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I wonder, what's going to happen to folks when they meet all of these allegedly-imaginary people (Nephi, Moroni, Peter, James, and John, et cetera)?  Are they going to be like the M&M's and Santa Claus were when they met each other?  "They do exist!" [Whereupon a loud thud can be heard as they hit the floor after fainting, and someone, like the other M&M did to Santa, will say, "Uuuuhhh, Teancum?"]

Ah, well.  Thanks for reminding me of one of my all-time favorite Christmastime commercials!   Cheers!   Carry on!

I am fairly confident my chances of meeting Nephi or Moroni (Pater, James and John were real people) is about as high as my chances of meeting Frodo or Gandalf. 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I am fairly confident my chances of meeting Nephi or Moroni (Pater, James and John were real people) is about as high as my chances of meeting Frodo or Gandalf. 

I wonder how well that confidence will serve you when the moment of truth comes, but, to each his own, I suppose.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is hard to imagine the Jesus of the NT being an autocratic capitalist elitist who promotes policies that favor the wealthy over the poor and middle class. By the way a social democracy is not a "tyrannical system of all powerful “government” that enslaves the sons and daughters of God and and relegates them to the status of subservient and dispensable wards of the state."

Please take the politics out of this thread.

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I am fairly confident my chances of meeting Nephi or Moroni (Pater, James and John were real people) is about as high as my chances of meeting Frodo or Gandalf. 

Kick it up a level.

Everyone has an opinion about whether or not they "really lived" but all we really know for sure is what someone told us they said or did. 

 The only real question is whether or not we should believe their teachings, and the only way we can know that is within our hearts.

 The quicker we get rid of the whole history thing, and think religion is supposed to be objectively factual, the farther ahead we will be.

When all that goes away, we are free to follow the spirit of the teachings and not worry about the authors.

That kicks the whole question up a level in abstraction, and the problem disappears 

 And I don't remember Gandalf teaching much about the gospel.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

39 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I wonder how well that confidence will serve you when the moment of truth comes, but, to each his own, I suppose.

Unless of course we meet God and he gives us a big hug and says

"Welcome to paradise my beautiful, eternal son, my name is Ahura Mazda! "

 

[MiserereNobis]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And I don't remember Gandalf teaching much about the gospel.

Tolkien explicitly said that The Lord of the Rings was a Catholic book.

Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Middle-earth

 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Tolkien explicitly said that The Lord of the Rings was a Catholic book.

Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Middle-earth

 

I was thinking the same thing. LOTR also has the advantage of well-developed, three-dimensional characters.

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Jesus went out of his way to upset the Pharisees and preach to sinners and people the Pharisees found "less than". Jesus preached about leaving the ninety nine to go after the one. The Jesus I know, if walking the earth today, would persuade through love and kindness.

 

The Pharisees were not among those who followed Christ and then turned away. Of those, he said

Quote

Luke 9:57Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, “Lord, I will follow You wherever You go.”

58And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

59Then He said to another, “Follow Me.”

But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”

61And another also said, “Lord, I will follow You, but let me first go and bid them farewell who are at my house.”

62But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/1/2021 at 8:37 PM, Vellichor said:

I am late to this conversation, but I have to say I have followed both Hank Smith and Calvin Burke for a while. Hank Smith seems to be a good-hearted person who let his emotions get the better of him in this one instance, after Calvin "apologized" for Hank's statements proclaiming Hank's belief in Joseph Smith's prophetic role. Calvin, on the other hand, has a long history of calling out Church leaders and criticizing and misrepresenting both Church doctrine and Church history. He has also lied about his own parents (who took him to court over it and provided evidence his accusations were false) and about others (for example, he accused Kwaku El of reporting him to the BYU Honor Code office for being gay, which is ridiculous). After Hank called him Korihor and then apologized, Calvin posted his Venmo account so people could donate to help him in his supposed distress.

Calvin supposedly has the most-followed Twitter account of any BYU student, so he has a lot of influence. 

Hank shouldn't have called Calvin "Korihor," but he seemed to do everything he could to address the situation appropriately. He deserves some grace.

There is no grace, forgiveness, or mercy in Cancel Culture, only justice. Unfortunately, canceling the Atonement is creeping into some folks in the Church.

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

There is no grace, forgiveness, or mercy in Cancel Culture, only justice. Unfortunately, canceling the Atonement is creeping into some folks in the Church.

At BYU the time-honored tradition of turning people in for standards violations was cancel culture decades before it was cool. Seriously though, it's funny how some people believe cancel culture is a feature exclusively of the left. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Personally I am not worried about anything Joseph Smith has to say but I have a bunch to say to him. Of course we differ in our views of the man.

If you’re talking about reaming him out, I doubt you’ll have the opportunity— or even the desire — when the time comes. 

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

LOTR also has the advantage of well-developed, three-dimensional characters

While I love the book and dislike the movies taking liberties with the characters (Aragorn was never wishy washy about his overall mission), there was a lot of stereotyping/archetyping  going on. 

[Calm]

17 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

The Jesus I know, if walking the earth today, would persuade through love and kindness.

But it isn’t always love to not correct someone. If my daughter decides she will dump her insulin and chooses another way to control her blood sugar, it is not love for me not to remind her she is risking her health and even life by doing so.  For those who believe leaving the Church is risking eternal life, would not correcting what they believe are false beliefs also fall into such a category?

And Bernard was kind enough to pull up the scriptures that were eluding me yesterday to demonstrate Jesus was not always someone’s best bud, he could be a loving, but authoritative father as well.  

Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you’re talking about reaming him out, I doubt you’ll have the opportunity— or even the desire — when the time comes. 

I don't have any interest in "reaming him out," but I would love to ask him about his motivations and also gauge his surprise at the staying power of the little movement he founded.