jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, Teancum said: Well I am just an evil apostate. 😉 Apparently, we are consumed with hatred for Joseph Smith. Or something. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: It doesn't. That's the problem. There would have to be 1) a knowingly false statement that 2) was intended to defame. None of that happened. You say you like to stick to language with plain meaning, but you are straining the definition of "calumny" so far that you need a taffy puller. Well, there’s the rub. You have no better way of knowing that Joseph lied than you would claim I do in saying he didn’t. The difference, of course, is that your assertion tends to defame while mine doesn’t. Ergo, calumny.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Apparently, we are consumed with hatred for Joseph Smith. Or something. Not what I said. But taking on victimhood surely can taste good, right?
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: Well, there’s the rub. You have no better way of knowing that Joseph lied than you would claim I do in saying he didn’t. The difference, of course, is that your assertion tends to defame while mine doesn’t. Ergo, calumny. No kidding. I made no claim. There's a difference between a musing based on a guess and an assertion.
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Not what I said. But taking on victimhood surely can taste good, right? You mistake sarcasm for victimhood. Sarcasm definitely tastes good. Edited May 6, 2021 by jkwilliams 3
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Sure, posting an opinion here is an intentionally false and defamatory statement to damage Joseph Smith's reputation. 🤣 Aren’t you saying he was lying when you said you believe he didn’t believe what he said? Never mind...it still comes across as derogatory to me, but not intentionally false. Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: No kidding. I made no claim. There's a difference between a musing based on a guess and an assertion. Well, I’ve gotten you to admit your defamatory statement is “a musing based on a guess.” That’s progress, I suppose.
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 Just now, Calm said: Aren’t you saying he was lying when you said you believe he didn’t believe what he said? I'm not saying I know he didn't believe what he said, just guessing based on the entirety of his life and actions. As Scott said, I don't know any better than he or you do what Joseph was thinking. My guess is not calumny.
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I'm not saying I know he didn't believe what he said, just guessing based on the entirety of his life and actions. As Scott said, I don't know any better than he or you do what Joseph was thinking. My guess is not calumny. What about derogatory? Just curious about how you see your comments in comparison to how I see it. 1
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Well, I’ve gotten you to admit your defamatory statement is “a musing based on a guess.” That’s progress, I suppose. I never said it was anything else. Nothing to admit. And it wasn't defamatory.
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 Just now, Calm said: What about derogatory? Just curious about how you see your comments in comparison to how I see it. I'm sorry you thought they were derogatory. To me, that implies intent. Scott made some statement about "reaming him out," and I said, truthfully, what I would like to ask Joseph Smith about: his motivations and whether he was surprised at the church's staying power. I've only thought about that at all because some church members have told me I will have to answer to Joseph Smith, and I've thought what I would ask him if I met him after this life. I would have thought it was a given that I don't believe he was a prophet. You guys all know that, so I'm surprised that you would find my well-known opinion to be "derogatory." Maybe I could have worded it differently, I suppose. 2
Teancum Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Well, there’s the rub. You have no better way of knowing that Joseph lied than you would claim I do in saying he didn’t. The difference, of course, is that your assertion tends to defame while mine doesn’t. Ergo, calumny. Well there is evidence that Joseph did lie on some things, like polygamy. To his wife and to the public. So we may have more to go on regarding whether we can trust what Joseph said and did. 1
CA Steve Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I'm sorry you thought they were derogatory. To me, that implies intent. Scott made some statement about "reaming him out," and I said, truthfully, what I would like to ask Joseph Smith about: his motivations and whether he was surprised at the church's staying power. I've only thought about that at all because some church members have told me I will have to answer to Joseph Smith, and I've thought what I would ask him if I met him after this life. I would have thought it was a given that I don't believe he was a prophet. You guys all know that, so I'm surprised that you would find my well-known opinion to be "derogatory." Maybe I could have worded it differently, I suppose. I suppose Smith would be most surprised that we are still here arguing about him. 1
Bernard Gui Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, jkwilliams said: At BYU the time-honored tradition of turning people in for standards violations was cancel culture decades before it was cool. Seriously though, it's funny how some people believe cancel culture is a feature exclusively of the left. I don't have any such illusions, but that was tiny potatoes compared with what is going on now all around us. There was every effort made to remedy BYU standards violations, so forgiveness, mercy, and grace were very much in play. BYU was hardly the only institution that experienced that, by the way. Edited May 6, 2021 by Bernard Gui
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I would have thought it was a given that I don't believe he was a prophet. But someone could believe themselves to be a prophet. What you are talking about is intentional deception on his part, not being simply misguided or delusional...unfortunate, but not evil. Deception for the sake of aggrandizement is in my view evil. Rare exceptions allowed imo for when it saves someone from harm. Not seeing that in the case of what then amounts to a bragging lie. Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Teancum said: Well there is evidence that Joseph did lie on some things, like polygamy. To his wife and to the public. Yep...and he will likely be/has been judged on whether he did it to avoid confrontation or wanted to look good (bad)or was attempting to protect others (not great if he should have allowed them the opportunity to choose or grow, wise if the only way to ensure someone else’s safety who had not had a choice in the matter, like possibly his children). Hopefully if his motives were selfish, he repented. Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 17 minutes ago, Calm said: But someone could believe themselves to be a prophet. What you are talking about is intentional deception on his part, not being simply misguided or delusional...unfortunate, but not evil. Deception for the sake of aggrandizement is in my view evil. Rare exceptions allowed imo for when it saves someone from harm. Not seeing that in the case of what then amounts to a bragging lie. It’s true I don’t believe he was delusional, but saying so is an educated guess, not calumny. Apparently I don’t know how to express my opinion without being offensive, so I’ll back out.
Teancum Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Yep...and he will likely be/has been judged on whether he did it to avoid confrontation or wanted to look good (bad)or was attempting to protect others (not great if he should have allowed them the opportunity to choose or grow, wise if the only way to ensure someone else’s safety who had not had a choice in the matter, like possibly his children). Hopefully if his motives were selfish, he repented. Yet if he lied about this and other things as well why should I trust him when he says God told him. You know that letter to Nancy Rigdon where he says God can command or revoke. Well great then God can tell me. Because if Joseph is saying God tells me and I tell you and I know he has a history of being untrustworthy then I feel quite fine dismissing what he says God is saying is suspect.
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 I am not offended personally. I am just surprised at times when critics think their comments are neutral rather than condemning of the person they are critical of. 1
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: Yet if he lied about this and other things as well why should I trust him when he says God told him. You know that letter to Nancy Rigdon where he says God can command or revoke. Well great then God can tell me. Because if Joseph is saying God tells me and I tell you and I know he has a history of being untrustworthy then I feel quite fine dismissing what he says God is saying is suspect. If you don’t have a witness, I am not going to say that you are wrong to dismiss him. Joseph pretty much said he wouldn’t have a problem with it...at least in my interpretation of his ‘if I hadn’t lived it, I wouldn’t believe it either’. Joseph made a lot of extraordinary claims. I would expect people would put what he said through the wringer before believing him. Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm
jkwilliams Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 1 minute ago, Calm said: I am not offended personally. I am just surprised at times when critics think their comments are neutral rather than condemning of the person they are critical of. I never said my comments were neutral. But I absolutely reject that I was condemning or spreading calumny.
Calm Posted May 6, 2021 Posted May 6, 2021 7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I never said my comments were neutral. But I absolutely reject that I was condemning or spreading calumny. Is critical an appropriate word in your view? I am assuming you think it is wrong to lie, but perhaps you only limit lying as wrong when it is harmful and claiming the Church will grow is harmless?
Teancum Posted May 7, 2021 Posted May 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Calm said: If you don’t have a witness, I am not going to say that you are wrong to dismiss him. Joseph pretty much said he wouldn’t have a problem with it...at least in my interpretation of his ‘if I hadn’t lived it, I wouldn’t believe it either’. Joseph made a lot of extraordinary claims. I would expect people would put what he said through the wringer before believing him. I had a "witness" for a large part of my life. But IMO a witness does not trump the facts. People have all sorts of "witnesses" about all sorts of things that simply are not true. And mot members of the Church do not put him or what he said and taught through the wringer before believing him.
Calm Posted May 7, 2021 Posted May 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, Teancum said: trump the facts. What are the “facts” is debatable though. They are not always accessible.
mfbukowski Posted May 7, 2021 Posted May 7, 2021 9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said: Tolkien explicitly said that The Lord of the Rings was a Catholic book. Check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Middle-earth Ah, well ok then!
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