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The millennium - a curious doctrine


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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and why so many infants don't make it to the age of accountability -- get a pass without being tested.

I suspect they are also tested at the end of the Millenium.

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12 hours ago, strappinglad said:

We are told that God doesn't lie... but He can obfuscate .ūüėé

I think His greatest achievement is trying to teach ants quantum theory.

(Analogy for teaching us what he knows)

Seriously.

It just won't fit in our rudimentary brains. And then we argue about "true theology"

We have no clue!!

 

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20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think His greatest achievement is trying to teach ants quantum theory.

(Analogy for teaching us what he knows)

Seriously.

It just won't fit in our rudimentary brains. And then we argue about "true theology"

We have no clue!!

 

Quote

 

Of all the people he had met in his journey only Wisdom appeared to him in the caverns, and troubled him by saying that no man could really come where he had come and that all his adventures were but figurative, for no professed experience of these places could be anything other than mythology. But then another voice spoke to him from behind him, saying:

‚ÄúChild, if you will, it¬†is¬†mythology. It is but truth, not fact: an image, also myth and metaphor: but since they do not know themselves for what they are, in them the hidden myth is master, where it should be servant: and it is but man‚Äôs inventing. But this My inventing, this is the veil under which I have chosen to appear even from the first until now. For this end I made your sense and for this end your imagination, that you might see my face and live. What would you have? Have you not heard among the Pagans the story of Semele? Or was there any age in any land when men did not know that corn and wine were the blood and body of a dying and yet living God?‚ÄĚ

 

 

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3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

........................... how do the millions who die¬†in their innocence gain the requisite knowledge and experience needed in order to overcome the fallen state through faith¬†and thereby find true joy, when we‚Äôre told, in no uncertain terms¬†that ‚Äúthere is no other way?‚ÄĚ

So do you entertain the possibility of reincarnation?

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I think His greatest achievement is trying to teach ants quantum theory.

(Analogy for teaching us what he knows)

Seriously.

It just won't fit in our rudimentary brains. And then we argue about "true theology"

We have no clue!!

I both agree with this and dislike it.  It seems so much the antithesis of Joseph's approach and perspective on the gospel.  It's too much like the unknowable God of other sects.

While it's completely true that God's knowledge and understanding is far beyond our current comprehension unlike your ant analogy it is within our range of progress.  An ant will never learn quantum theory.  We can move towards Godhood.

We may never understand many things in this life, but God is willing to teach us all he knows as quickly as we progress. 

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5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and why so many infants don't make it to the age of accountability -- get a pass without being tested.

Our premortal life was a test deemed sufficient by our Heavenly Father to disqualify ‚Äúa third‚ÄĚ of His spirit children from any progress. ¬†To put them irretrievably beyond the power of the atonement. ¬†
 

On the other end of that spectrum, billions of God‚Äôs spiritual children used that same premortal test to gain Celestial glory...no test in mortality required. ¬†The purpose of mortality for those spirits is much simpler than it is for us‚ÄĒto receive a mortal body and have the glory of God made manifest through their mortal life however short or long that mortal life might be.

Based on those truths, it’s clear our premortal experience was indeed a test.

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4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The big mystery on this point that would be nice to have resolved is this: The scriptures make it clear that there is no other way to find true happiness than to be tested in the crucible of mortal adversity and emerge from the trial triumphant, having learned through our own experience how to love, appreciate and prize the good and why we should detest and reject that which is evil. Adam and Eve explained this process of tasting the bitterness of fallen mortality in order to know how to appreciate and enjoy a life of goodness is set forth by Adam and Eve in the Book of Moses.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, AND NEVER SHOULD HAVE KNOWN  GOOD FROM EVIL, AND THE JOY OF OUR REDEMPTION, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5)

To quote a¬†lyric from a song by the famous progressive rock group Genesis, ‚Äúyou‚Äôve got to get in to get out.‚ÄĚ So the mystery that needs¬†to be resolved here is how do those who die in their innocence ‚Äėget out,‚Äô as it were,¬†in the best possible way without ever ‚Äėgetting in‚Äô the first place? Put another way, how do the millions who die¬†in their innocence gain the requisite knowledge and experience needed in order to overcome the fallen state through faith¬†and thereby find true joy, when we‚Äôre told, in no uncertain terms¬†that ‚Äúthere is no other way?‚ÄĚ

 

I invite you to consider that the message of the scriptures is for God’s children in mortality who are accountable for their mortality.  Children who die before reaching the age of accountability and those who, because of mental delay, never attain accountability don’t fit in that category.

The scriptural teaching that there is no other way applies to those to whom the scriptures were given.  For billions of God’s spirit children, there is indeed another way as taught in the BofM.

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7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I seem to remember it was President Ruben J Clark who once said he believed it was likely that there would be more sons of perdition made during the ‚Äúlittle season‚ÄĚ after the millennium than at any other time in the earth‚Äôs history.

Makes sense to me --

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21 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not suggesting, necessarily, that the "binding" of Satan will not, in some sense, be literal.  But we needn't wait for that literal binding if, in fact, that is what will occur.  We can "bind" Satan the same way Christ did, by giving him no heed.  And, while I am full well aware how difficult it is to bind Satan in this mortal, fallen, wicked world, it is not impossible.  You know people who have done it, and so do I.  As to your larger question, how or why in the world would an individual, a group of individuals, or a society go from this (though this first scripture is from earlier in the Book of Mormon narrative):

And this:

... to the total degeneracy, wickedness, and evil that prevails at the close of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon narrative itself provides proof (or evidence, if you like) that such a thing is possible.  The Book of Mormon is a type, a template, and a warning for people who will live on the earth at or near the end of the Millennium and/or at or near the time Satan's "unbinding" will take place.  But you're right: Totally degenerate conditions don't happen over night.

But despite anything that is left out of the Book of Mormon for the sake of brevity, it didn't happen to the Nephites at the flip of a switch, and it won't happen at or toward the end of the Millennium at the flip of a switch.  We don't know how long the "little season" in which Satan will be loosed will last: A few years?  Dozens of years?  Even longer, perhaps?  Again, we don't know when the "unbinding" will take place or how long, precisely, it will last.  But the Book of Mormon does provide a useful type, template, and warning.

Thankfully this little season will not entail a Great Apostasy.

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16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I  tend to see doctrines as cogs and gears and how they function in an overall theory/paradigm.  The notion that everyone who has ever lived will  eventually have a chance to receive their temple work  defines a period of time very different from our present world. It is a kind of safety plug in the doctrine, a deus ex machina for everything left unexplained.

"Oh, they will fix that during the millennium "

 You have to allow quite a bit of time for all that to work. 

 A 1000 years seems to be a good number

And you need peace and understanding, without sinful attractions

 A world where spirits returning is routine.

 But that brings up the problem of pre destination for those souls born during that period.

They would never be tested! Can't have that!

 So now you need a mechanism by which they would be tested, a chance for a kind of Second Fall.

 And so Satan must make a reappearance to tie it all together

 Remember that religion is no more about history than it is about future accuracy

 These are concepts in an over all paradigm about how the eternities work and do not present infallible future "facts"

We don't know all things! 

 And so as always we rely on testimony.

 I just shrug my shoulders and am confident that the Lord will take care of it all. 

How it will really happen is his business. ;)

 

I think the paradisaical/terrestrial Millennium and the paradisaical/terrestrial Eden are the same in some ways and different in others. The inhabitants of both worlds have a veil of forgetfulness but still walk with heavenly beings. Those born in the Millennium might be as those organized in the pre-mortal world, still subject to their own devices when it comes to following God. The "Millennials" know they will die, and have the benefit of the lessons of history, the "Edeners" did not. Satan is bound for the former, but was not for the latter. I think "bound" may also refer to a drastically reduced scope of influence rather than no influence at all (as with to the secret devices of wickedness that were brought into the new world by the Jaredites, the memory or record of such could be brought into the Millennium and eventually land in perditious hands). All of this is figurative and literal... :)

 

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So do you entertain the possibility of reincarnation?

Without attempting to nail down precisely how it might occur in the case of those who die in their innocence, prior to arriving at the age of accountability, the only possible answer is that if there truly is no other way to find genuine happiness and inner peace than to willingly engage in battle with the dark side of reality and overcome it through living faith in Almighty God, then even those who die before the years of accountability must somehow, somewhere and someday engage in the inescapable battle with the powers of darkness and emerge victorious. To imagine otherwise is to contradict the manifest truth that there really is no other way.

In some way thus far¬†unexplained, all¬†must first suffer with Christ before they can be ‚Äúglorified together with him.‚ÄĚ If even the sinless and most worthy Savior of mankind¬†was required to courageously engage in the same battle, in spite of the fact that¬†he most plaintively pled¬†with¬†his Father that there must be some other way, he learned¬†that isn‚Äôt any other way¬†and then,¬†most bravely, went on to to wage battle and become the foremost exemplar of¬†how to engage in the eternal struggle¬†between good and evil, gain ultimate¬†triumph¬†and be crowned¬†with¬†everlasting¬†joy as a consequence. There is indeed no other way. ‚ÄúWe will prove¬†them herewith‚ÄĚ applies to one and all, especially to those who are most holy.

Edited by teddyaware
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6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The big mystery on this point that would be nice to have resolved is this: The scriptures make it clear that there is no other way to find true happiness than to be tested in the crucible of mortal adversity and emerge from the trial triumphant, having learned through our own experience how to love, appreciate and prize the good and why we should detest and reject that which is evil. Adam and Eve explained this process of tasting the bitterness of fallen mortality in order to know how to appreciate and enjoy a life of goodness is set forth by Adam and Eve in the Book of Moses.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, AND NEVER SHOULD HAVE KNOWN  GOOD FROM EVIL, AND THE JOY OF OUR REDEMPTION, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5)

To quote a¬†lyric from a song by the famous progressive rock group Genesis, ‚Äúyou‚Äôve got to get in to get out.‚ÄĚ So the mystery that needs¬†to be resolved here is how do those who die in their innocence ‚Äėget out,‚Äô as it were,¬†in the best possible way without ever ‚Äėgetting in‚Äô the first place? Put another way, how do the millions who die¬†in their innocence gain the requisite knowledge and experience needed in order to overcome the fallen state through faith¬†and thereby find true joy, when we‚Äôre told, in no uncertain terms¬†that ‚Äúthere is no other way?‚ÄĚ

Perhaps we just don't understand or relate to what they are going through, and much of it may well be relative: the separation of the connecting/connected spirit and element may be just as spiritually difficult and transforming (i.e. effective as to the knowledge of good and evil) as what might be experienced by those who become accountable thereafter. Given that any of us could die in infancy, these might represent two equally as difficult paths requiring a Redeemer, one the path of the innocent (Christ was innocent) and one the path of the accountable (Christ was also accountable).

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1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

If so, she must be going through menopause about now. 

That's funny.

There is a gospel principle that we have to lay everything on the altar, withholding nothing, (sometimes call the Abrahamic test) before we will be permitted to receive our second comforter.
Seems to me the earth is going through it's greatest trial period prior to receiving it's calling and election and the presence of the second comforter.

The more I think about it the more that pattern, the types and shadows, become clear.

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It will take that long, even with Satan bound as he will be during the millennium, to wrap up all of the work of this world and do all the ordinances so that judgment can be fairly delivered.

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1 hour ago, rpn said:

It will take that long, even with Satan bound as he will be during the millennium, to wrap up all of the work of this world and do all the ordinances so that judgment can be fairly delivered.

Maybe we should do an estimate on how long this is likely to take with what we have so far in need. How many temples are there likely to be during the Millennium, do you think?

How many instruction sessions a day in each temple (assuming they will be fully staffed and attended as it is the Millennium after all)? Using instruction as measure as that is the one that consumes the most time.  Multiply by 5 days/week, 4 weeks/month (low estimate), 11 months/year (closed one month a year for major cleaning and repair) or 220 days each year in service.

Average size of temple:  maximum number of patrons per session x Average number of instruction rooms?

# of Patrons x # of Sessions/day x 220 days/year x # of Temples = # of Sessions per year worldwide

Number born on earth so far:  estimates are at 80 billion

Guesses:  given the current rate of building temples and my fondness for the symmetry of the number, let’s say there are 1000 temples in operation during the Millennium. 

I am going to go with an average of 3 instruction rooms per temple based on this:

https://churchofjesuschristtemples.org/statistics/dimensions/

Jordan River is the fourth largest temple and has room for 125 patrons per instruction room, so assuming 60 as average as we may have more smaller temples with that many.  That would make 180 per session per temple.  Let’s say 2 hours turn around time per session, though likely will be shorter but it allows for staggering, etc. If temples are open from 7 AM to 9 PM, that makes for 7 sessions, so on average of about 1200 per day per temple or 1,200,000 worldwide daily.  Round off to 1,000,000 daily for ease of math.  Leaves us with 220,000,000 per year. 

For 80 billion, that would take 363 years or for ease, 1/3 of the time allotted. So the question would be how many more will be born before and during the Millennium to fill the 2/3s.

If the world is a paradise, chances are it will be able to support many, many more people, especially with no corruption or droughts creating famines.  Hydroponics and other technology could allow families to produce much of their own food (wasn’t it Log who described how his family has tilapia in tanks along with a hydroponic garden, wonder if I could find that post).  However, do we include the resurrected in those numbers living on earth or not?

found it:  LeSellers/Lehi...I got the L right

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56753-ecoponics-our-own-garden-of-eden/

Rabbits and tilapia, eventually will add some chickens

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Without attempting to nail down precisely how it might occur in the case of those who die in their innocence, prior to arriving at the age of accountability, the only possible answer is that if there truly is no other way to find genuine happiness and inner peace than to willingly engage in battle with the dark side of reality and overcome it through living faith in Almighty God, then even those who die before the years of accountability must somehow, somewhere and someday engage in the inescapable battle with the powers of darkness and emerge victorious. To imagine otherwise is to contradict the manifest truth that there really is no other way.

In some way thus far¬†unexplained, all¬†must first suffer with Christ before they can be ‚Äúglorified together with him.‚ÄĚ If even the sinless and most worthy Savior of mankind¬†was required to courageously engage in the same battle, in spite of the fact that¬†he most plaintively pled¬†with¬†his Father that there must be some other way, he learned¬†that isn‚Äôt any other way¬†and then,¬†most bravely, went on to to wage battle and become the foremost exemplar of¬†how to engage in the eternal struggle¬†between good and evil, gain ultimate¬†triumph¬†and be crowned¬†with¬†everlasting¬†joy as a consequence. There is indeed no other way. ‚ÄúWe will prove¬†them herewith‚ÄĚ applies to one and all, especially to those who are most holy.

"So do you entertain the possibility of reincarnation?"  Is there any other way for those who died too early or were stillborn, etc.?  Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, is there some other way?

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4 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Our premortal life was a test deemed sufficient by our Heavenly Father to disqualify ‚Äúa third‚ÄĚ of His spirit children from any progress. ¬†To put them irretrievably beyond the power of the atonement. ¬†
 

On the other end of that spectrum, billions of God‚Äôs spiritual children used that same premortal test to gain Celestial glory...no test in mortality required. ¬†The purpose of mortality for those spirits is much simpler than it is for us‚ÄĒto receive a mortal body and have the glory of God made manifest through their mortal life however short or long that mortal life might be.

Based on those truths, it’s clear our premortal experience was indeed a test.

Perhaps, but that will not be satisfactory to a number of those on this board, simply because this was not a test of accountability, and even Jesus had to pass that test.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Nope, they are resurrected at the beginning of the Millenium at their current age and, per Joseph Smith, are raised by their parents. I assume that only applies if the parents are resurrected. I am guessing there will be a huge need for adoption in the first part of the Millenium as well.

I also suspect that the ‚Äėtwinkling of an eye‚Äô ‚Äėdeath‚Äô¬†is not a thing for them as they have already been resurrected so seems likely¬†they will live on earth until the end of the Millenium.

Again, I am way off in speculation land. I take no responsibility for anyone who believes this to be the true gospel and gets damned for it.

Wow.  Tomas de Torquemada take note.  :diablo:

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42 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps, but that will not be satisfactory to a number of those on this board, simply because this was not a test of accountability, and even Jesus had to pass that test.

Ultimately all will concede that all of God‚Äôs judgments are just‚ÄĒ those He makes with respect to us, as well as those He makes with respect to each of our brothers and sister, both in mortality and in our premortal life.

Each of us can decide how hard we battle against the tendency we have not to allow our eyes to ‚Äúsee afar off‚ÄĚ both looking back on what we‚Äôve already experienced and forward to what is still in store.

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4 hours ago, rpn said:

It will take that long, even with Satan bound as he will be during the millennium, to wrap up all of the work of this world and do all the ordinances so that judgment can be fairly delivered.

While temple work is an element of the Millenium I do not believe it is the exclusive purpose or even the most prominent purpose.

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10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It just won't fit in our rudimentary brains

We " can't HANDLE the truth " !!

I forgot a factor that will affect the righteousness of the world in the Millennium. At His coming and before, the earth's population of particularly the wicked, will be destroyed. Also , many righteous ( as many as one half ) will be caught up to meet Him. How many of those return to earth is unknown. 

 

Edited by strappinglad
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On 3/28/2021 at 4:07 PM, Calm said:

All working together and no more disasters nor illness, life becomes pretty easy.  Pride builds up slowly, then gets to a point where people are taking credit for doing good instead of giving it to God. Want rewards for themselves rather than sharing. Become materialistic. Just look at the pride cycle in the BoM and think of it taking longer because God is present. 

Final battle is symbolic imo for when all finally choose what kingdom or not they desire to be in.  The battle is likely one of words, emotional pressure being used as the primary weapon, a repeat essentially of what occurred in heaven at the first Council.

At least that is how I see it as likely. 
 

We can sin even in the presence of God, so we need to be ever vigilant about our internal dialogue to ensure we aren’t talking ourselves into nurturing weaknesses rather than strengths. 

I am curious.  Do you think it is possible to have a war in the Celestial Kingdom where many of these conditions will also be possible?  

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