The millennium - a curious doctrine

[Freedom]

The concept of a 100 years of peace that culminates in more wickedness is one doctrine that I do not quite understand. We have an amazing second coming which would in effect put an end to all temporal social orders and bring in a regime headed by God himself. We know that there are somethings that, in Gods good wisdom, can only be done by mortals. So perhaps we have this proverbial overtime period to get all the temple work and other matters completed. This is a message of hope for those who are not able to do family history because the records have been lost. There will be no death as we know it, and no war. and then it abruptly all goes to hell? 

 

Why 1000 years. Perhaps this is a symbolic number that could be 50 years, 200 years or any other timeline that is simply a pure and perfect schedule to get all the needed work done. 

And why the final battle? What doctrinal value is there in knowing this? Why would it be allowed to happen if the government is lead by God himself? If He can make it all s  top at the second coming, why let it happen again? It makes me think of part in The Stand where 'mother' sends the community leaders to Los Vegas to die. they do not change anything, they do not save anybody. If they did not go the same results would have come about. 

 

my general perspective is that teachings in the scriptures are indented to be likened unto ourselves. Rather than trying to speculate on  what it means for the moon to turn to blood, we should be thinking, what does the blood moon mean to me. 

If the entire doctrine of the millennium was not mentioned in the scriptures, I do not see it making any difference in the gospel plan because it all occurs after the second coming. Knowing about the final battle also is so far removed from anybody ever that it seems pointless to mention.

Unless there is some principle that is being taught that I am missing.  

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, Freedom said:

There will be no death as we know it, and no war. and then it abruptly all goes to hell? 

All working together and no more disasters nor illness, life becomes pretty easy.  Pride builds up slowly, then gets to a point where people are taking credit for doing good instead of giving it to God. Want rewards for themselves rather than sharing. Become materialistic. Just look at the pride cycle in the BoM and think of it taking longer because God is present. 

Final battle is symbolic imo for when all finally choose what kingdom or not they desire to be in.  The battle is likely one of words, emotional pressure being used as the primary weapon, a repeat essentially of what occurred in heaven at the first Council.

At least that is how I see it as likely. 
 

Quote

Unless there is some principle that is being taught that I am missing.  

We can sin even in the presence of God, so we need to be ever vigilant about our internal dialogue to ensure we aren’t talking ourselves into nurturing weaknesses rather than strengths. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by Calm

[teddyaware]

54 minutes ago, Freedom said:

The concept of a 100 years of peace that culminates in more wickedness is one doctrine that I do not quite understand. We have an amazing second coming which would in effect put an end to all temporal social orders and bring in a regime headed by God himself. We know that there are somethings that, in Gods good wisdom, can only be done by mortals. So perhaps we have this proverbial overtime period to get all the temple work and other matters completed. This is a message of hope for those who are not able to do family history because the records have been lost. There will be no death as we know it, and no war. and then it abruptly all goes to hell? 

 

Why 1000 years. Perhaps this is a symbolic number that could be 50 years, 200 years or any other timeline that is simply a pure and perfect schedule to get all the needed work done. 

And why the final battle? What doctrinal value is there in knowing this? Why would it be allowed to happen if the government is lead by God himself? If He can make it all s  top at the second coming, why let it happen again? It makes me think of part in The Stand where 'mother' sends the community leaders to Los Vegas to die. they do not change anything, they do not save anybody. If they did not go the same results would have come about. 

 

my general perspective is that teachings in the scriptures are indented to be likened unto ourselves. Rather than trying to speculate on  what it means for the moon to turn to blood, we should be thinking, what does the blood moon mean to me. 

If the entire doctrine of the millennium was not mentioned in the scriptures, I do not see it making any difference in the gospel plan because it all occurs after the second coming. Knowing about the final battle also is so far removed from anybody ever that it seems pointless to mention.

Unless there is some principle that is being taught that I am missing.  

God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, ruled and reigned with perfect love and infinite and eternal power and glory while the human family resided in our heavenly home as the spirit sons and daughters of God before the world was. There is no place I can imagine where a better possibility could exist for the spiritual growth, harmony and tranquility of the family of God than could have existed in the heavenly home of our first estate.

Yet it was in this very place, where we are told that true joy and happiness reign supreme, that a bitter conflict called the war in heaven broke out, a deadly conflict of hatred, malignant anger, recrimination, alienation and tears of mourning and unimaginable sorrow that poured out from the eyes of the broken-hearted like great torrents of rain. If a war of such terrible consequences could brake out in the most perfect and sublime place of which we have any knowledge, why couldn’t a similar struggle break out between the forces of good and evil on a world that has not yet been celestialized and perfected? 

Edited March 28, 2021 by teddyaware

[Freedom]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Final battle is symbolic imo for when all finally choose what kingdom or not they desire to be in.  The battle is likely one of words, emotional pressure being used as the primary weapon, a repeat essentially of what occurred in heaven at the first Council.

 

We can sin even in the presence of God, so we need to be ever vigilant about our internal dialogue to ensure we aren’t talking ourselves into nurturing weaknesses rather than strengths. 

this makes sense. The final battle before the second coming is a battle behind a veil. The final battle and true end of days will be a battle without a veil. Two battles, two bookends. We live in sin whether we can see clearly or not. It is not what we can see and understand, but what is in our heart. 

[strappinglad]

We are told that Satan will be bound during the millenium  and loosed at the end of it. Some say that Satan is bound because of the righteousness of the people. I think there is more to it. When Satan is free, righteousness rarely lasts more than 200 years. The presence of Christ and the binding of Satan would give people a chance at 1000 years . 

My question would be , if there needs to be opposition in all things , what sort of opposition will be around during that 1000 years? 

[Freedom]

6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

We are told that Satan will be bound during the millenium  and loosed at the end of it. Some say that Satan is bound because of the righteousness of the people. I think there is more to it. When Satan is free, righteousness rarely lasts more than 200 years. The presence of Christ and the binding of Satan would give people a chance at 1000 years . 

My question would be , if there needs to be opposition in all things , what sort of opposition will be around during that 1000 years? 

This is another level isn't it. Why bind him and then unbind him. What is the meaning of this? 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

what sort of opposition will be around during that 1000 years? 

Laziness, selfishness, etc

[JLHPROF]

You have to view the course of the earth like the course of our own life.

It was born, baptized, endowed, it will receive it's second comforter, and yet die/be changed in a twinkling, and be resurrected to a celestial glory.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not suggesting, necessarily, that the "binding" of Satan will not, in some sense, be literal.  But we needn't wait for that literal binding if, in fact, that is what will occur.  We can "bind" Satan the same way Christ did, by giving him no heed.  And, while I am full well aware how difficult it is to bind Satan in this mortal, fallen, wicked world, it is not impossible.  You know people who have done it, and so do I.  As to your larger question, how or why in the world would an individual, a group of individuals, or a society go from this (though this first scripture is from earlier in the Book of Mormon narrative):

Quote

“And it came to pass that we lived after the manner of happiness” (2 Ne. 5:27).

And this:

Quote

“And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God” (4 Nephi 1:15-16).

... to the total degeneracy, wickedness, and evil that prevails at the close of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon narrative itself provides proof (or evidence, if you like) that such a thing is possible.  The Book of Mormon is a type, a template, and a warning for people who will live on the earth at or near the end of the Millennium and/or at or near the time Satan's "unbinding" will take place.  But you're right: Totally degenerate conditions don't happen over night.

But despite anything that is left out of the Book of Mormon for the sake of brevity, it didn't happen to the Nephites at the flip of a switch, and it won't happen at or toward the end of the Millennium at the flip of a switch.  We don't know how long the "little season" in which Satan will be loosed will last: A few years?  Dozens of years?  Even longer, perhaps?  Again, we don't know when the "unbinding" will take place or how long, precisely, it will last.  But the Book of Mormon does provide a useful type, template, and warning.

[Freedom]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

You have to view the course of the earth like the course of our own life.

It was born, baptized, endowed, it will receive it's second comforter, and yet die/be changed in a twinkling, and be resurrected to a celestial glory.

interesting, so the just as the story of Adam and Eve is an archetype for our life, so is the life story of the earth. 

[Freedom]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not suggesting, necessarily, that the "binding" of Satan will not, in some sense, be literal.  But we needn't wait for that literal binding if, in fact, that is what will occur.  We can "bind" Satan the same way Christ did, by giving him no heed.  And, while I am full well aware how difficult it is to bind Satan in this mortal, fallen, wicked world, it is not impossible.  You know people who have done it, and so do I.  As to your larger question, how or why in the world would an individual, a group of individuals, or a society go from this (though this first scripture is from earlier in the Book of Mormon narrative):

And this:

... to the total degeneracy, wickedness, and evil that prevails at the close of the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon narrative itself provides proof (or evidence, if you like) that such a thing is possible.  The Book of Mormon is a type, a template, and a warning for people who will live on the earth at or near the end of the Millennium and/or at or near the time Satan's "unbinding" will take place.  But you're right: Totally degenerate conditions don't happen over night.

But despite anything that is left out of the Book of Mormon for the sake of brevity, it didn't happen to the Nephites at the flip of a switch, and it won't happen at or toward the end of the Millennium at the flip of a switch.  We don't know how long the "little season" in which Satan will be loosed will last: A few years?  Dozens of years?  Even longer, perhaps?  Again, we don't know when the "unbinding" will take place or how long, precisely, it will last.  But the Book of Mormon does provide a useful type, template, and warning.

I think these words are important to ponder. What is a little season and what does a little season mean to me. 

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, Freedom said:

interesting, so the just as the story of Adam and Eve is an archetype for our life, so is the life story of the earth. 

Yes, but more than that, there are many early teachings that the earth itself has a spirit and is in fact alive. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Robert F. Smith]

The key scripture is Rev 20:1-10, and good coverage of the various theological interpretations can be had at https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm.    

The utopian image is so strong that even secular religions have adopted it, from Hitler's Thousand Year Reich to the Communist automatic harmony and withering away of the state in Marxist theory.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Freedom said:

I think these words are important to ponder. What is a little season and what does a little season mean to me. 

Perhaps most importantly, what does the term "a little season" mean to God vis-a-vis what it means to us (and vice-versa), since our ways and our thoughts are different than are His ways and His thoughts (see Isaiah 55:8-9), and since "time only is measured unto men" (see Alma 40:8)?

[mfbukowski]

I  tend to see doctrines as cogs and gears and how they function in an overall theory/paradigm.  The notion that everyone who has ever lived will  eventually have a chance to receive their temple work  defines a period of time very different from our present world. It is a kind of safety plug in the doctrine, a deus ex machina for everything left unexplained.

"Oh, they will fix that during the millennium "

 You have to allow quite a bit of time for all that to work. 

 A 1000 years seems to be a good number

And you need peace and understanding, without sinful attractions

 A world where spirits returning is routine.

 But that brings up the problem of pre destination for those souls born during that period.

They would never be tested! Can't have that!

 So now you need a mechanism by which they would be tested, a chance for a kind of Second Fall.

 And so Satan must make a reappearance to tie it all together

 Remember that religion is no more about history than it is about future accuracy

 These are concepts in an over all paradigm about how the eternities work and do not present infallible future "facts"

We don't know all things! 

 And so as always we rely on testimony.

 I just shrug my shoulders and am confident that the Lord will take care of it all. 

How it will really happen is his business. 

 

[strappinglad]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How it will really happen is his business.

We are told that God doesn't lie... but He can obfuscate .😎

[teddyaware]

8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

We are told that God doesn't lie... but He can obfuscate .😎

In shades of meaning, I’m wondering if there’s any significant difference between an obfuscater and a prevaricator?

[The Nehor]

Speculation Incoming:

I suspect that the war at the end of the Millenium is to give those born during the Millenium an opportunity to face sin in a way similar to how we do though I think it will still be Terrestrial so it will likely be different. Some spirits seem to get a different earth experience by being born in the Millenium for reasons we can only guess at. I don’t think we get a lot of info about it because that period is not for us. We will be dead by then. Some of us may be alive again too.

 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Freedom said:

The concept of a 100 years of peace that culminates in more wickedness is one doctrine that I do not quite understand. We have an amazing second coming which would in effect put an end to all temporal social orders and bring in a regime headed by God himself. We know that there are somethings that, in Gods good wisdom, can only be done by mortals. So perhaps we have this proverbial overtime period to get all the temple work and other matters completed. This is a message of hope for those who are not able to do family history because the records have been lost. There will be no death as we know it, and no war. and then it abruptly all goes to hell? 

 

Why 1000 years. Perhaps this is a symbolic number that could be 50 years, 200 years or any other timeline that is simply a pure and perfect schedule to get all the needed work done. 

And why the final battle? What doctrinal value is there in knowing this? Why would it be allowed to happen if the government is lead by God himself? If He can make it all s  top at the second coming, why let it happen again? It makes me think of part in The Stand where 'mother' sends the community leaders to Los Vegas to die. they do not change anything, they do not save anybody. If they did not go the same results would have come about. 

 

my general perspective is that teachings in the scriptures are indented to be likened unto ourselves. Rather than trying to speculate on  what it means for the moon to turn to blood, we should be thinking, what does the blood moon mean to me. 

If the entire doctrine of the millennium was not mentioned in the scriptures, I do not see it making any difference in the gospel plan because it all occurs after the second coming. Knowing about the final battle also is so far removed from anybody ever that it seems pointless to mention.

Unless there is some principle that is being taught that I am missing.  

In think that even a terrestrial kingdom ruled by Christ is insufficiently perfected to permanently defeat the adversary, and there needs to be additional purging before it becomes celestial. The adversary eventually learns to work around the terrestrial kingdom (just as he did in God's presence and in Eden), and again gains influence to war, which can only be completely overcome by grace. That is when the Lord settles things once and for all -- at the end -- and then we have the celestial world, the Church of the Firstborn, exaltation and continuation of the lives and seeds, etc.

And then the round continues once again as we come "down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences" and one says "Here and I, send me" and the other says, "Here am I, send me."

[teddyaware]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In think that even a terrestrial kingdom ruled by Christ is insufficiently perfected to permanently defeat the adversary, and there needs to be additional purging before it becomes celestial. The adversary eventually learns to work around the terrestrial kingdom (just as he did in God's presence and in Eden), and again gains influence to war, which can only be completely overcome by grace. That is when the Lord settles things once and for all -- at the end -- and then we have the celestial world, the Church of the Firstborn, exaltation and continuation of the lives and seeds, etc.

And then the round continues once again as we come "down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences" and one says "Here and I, send me" and the other says, "Here am I, send me."

I seem to remember it was President Ruben J Clark who once said he believed it was likely that there would be more sons of perdition made during the “little season” after the millennium than at any other time in the earth’s history.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

... I don’t think we get a lot of info about it because that period is not for us. We will be dead by then. Some of us may be alive again too.

 

I thought we would all be alive again in some form, albeit not all resurrected yet. But then again, I'm sure I'm not nearly the scholar of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ that you are, so ... [Dismissive retort coming in three, two, one ...] 💣

Edited March 29, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Speculation Incoming:

I suspect that the war at the end of the Millenium is to give those born during the Millenium an opportunity to face sin in a way similar to how we do though I think it will still be Terrestrial so it will likely be different. Some spirits seem to get a different earth experience by being born in the Millenium for reasons we can only guess at. I don’t think we get a lot of info about it because that period is not for us. We will be dead by then. Some of us may be alive again too.

Yes, and why so many infants don't make it to the age of accountability -- get a pass without being tested.

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Perhaps most importantly, what does the term "a little season" mean to God vis-a-vis what it means to us (and vice-versa), since our ways and our thoughts are different than are His ways and His thoughts (see Isaiah 55:8-9), and since "time only is measured unto men" (see Alma 40:8)?

 

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I  tend to see doctrines as cogs and gears and how they function in an overall theory/paradigm.  The notion that everyone who has ever lived will  eventually have a chance to receive their temple work  defines a period of time very different from our present world. It is a kind of safety plug in the doctrine, a deus ex machina for everything left unexplained..............................

 A 1000 years seems to be a good number............................................

II Peter 3:8, "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Abraham 3:4, "one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

Edited March 29, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[teddyaware]

43 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and why so many infants don't make it to the age of accountability -- get a pass without being tested.

The big mystery on this point that would be nice to have resolved is this: The scriptures make it clear that there is no other way to find true happiness than to be tested in the crucible of mortal adversity and emerge from the trial triumphant, having learned through our own experience how to love, appreciate and prize the good and why we should detest and reject that which is evil. Adam and Eve explained this process of tasting the bitterness of fallen mortality in order to know how to appreciate and enjoy a life of goodness is set forth by Adam and Eve in the Book of Moses.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, AND NEVER SHOULD HAVE KNOWN  GOOD FROM EVIL, AND THE JOY OF OUR REDEMPTION, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5)

To quote a lyric from a song by the famous progressive rock group Genesis, “you’ve got to get in to get out.” So the mystery that needs to be resolved here is how do those who die in their innocence ‘get out,’ as it were, in the best possible way without ever ‘getting in’ the first place? Put another way, how do the millions who die in their innocence gain the requisite knowledge and experience needed in order to overcome the fallen state through faith and thereby find true joy, when we’re told, in no uncertain terms that “there is no other way?”

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by teddyaware

[Kenngo1969]

The incomparable Elder Neal A. Maxwell once mused whether we don't overstate (or understate) or oversimplify things when we describe the purposes of this life as, inter alia, (a) to get a body and (b) to be tested, speaking of the former as though, more or less, it were akin to picking up a suit from the cleaners and of the latter as though a few deep knee bends or brisk wind sprints would do.   That said, we know that but for one thing, basically, Christ attained Godhood in the premortal life (cf. Matthew 5:48 and 3 Nephi 12:48).  "Well, duh, Ken!  He was the Anointed One, the firstborn of the Father's spirit children and His Only Begotten in the flesh!"  That whole almost-God-without-even-having-entered-mortality thing doesn't seem exactly fair, does it? Basically, doesn't it mean that He was the equivalent of a "teacher's pet" to the Father?  Well, like us, before He was a Spirit, He was an intelligence, so that must mean he was a pretty good intelligence, too.