More details on Salt Lake Temple renovation released

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

A waterfall could work with "living water" which would always work with the spiritual of the endowment no matter the stage.  

That's the general theme of the LA temple

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I am happy I was able to go through the live presentation endowment at the SLC temple. However, I was an ordinance worker here in Texas and I can’t imagine the extra pressure of “performing” in front of an “audience.” Plus, there was enough to memorize without that. 

The reason it is so hard of course is that you only can work on it while you are physically in the temple, with the written materials. If you work once a week you get a little time to study, but often on any shift you are mostly doing other duties including doing the ordinances while reading from a card with the correct text.   Adam and Eve can't carry cards of course while "acting"

[Peacefully]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The reason it is so hard of course is that you only can work on it while you are physically in the temple, with the written materials. If you work once a week you get a little time to study, but often on any shift you are mostly doing other duties including doing the ordinances while reading from a card with the correct text.   Adam and Eve can't carry cards of course while "acting"

I still have all of the ordinances memorized. I go through them in my mind sometimes before I sleep. Of course, they are outdated now, lol. 

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The reason it is so hard of course is that you only can work on it while you are physically in the temple, with the written materials. If you work once a week you get a little time to study, but often on any shift you are mostly doing other duties including doing the ordinances while reading from a card with the correct text.   Adam and Eve can't carry cards of course while "acting"

I’ve been called back to work beginning a week from today for a once-a-month shift. I’ve been trying to go through the wording in my mind. It’s surprising how soon what was once second nature can leave your memory — and amazing how quickly it all returns once you recapture what had been forgotten. 

[juliann]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

 But it has happened a few times when from the entire Los Angeles temple district we only have gotten 1 or 2 patrons.  The district goes up all the way to Bakersfield. Admittedly I am talking about Thursday nights which one would expect might be slow- but virtually no one?

 It's heartbreaking.

I stopped going to LA because the traffic, even on a Saturday, doubled or tripled the hour driving time, even on a Saturday. And it's not just the time, it is scary driving in LA. The temple was not on a quick and easy freeway exit route. Then they started building more regional temples. So I don't think the decrease was necessarily because of lack of desire. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

I still have all of the ordinances memorized. I go through them in my mind sometimes before I sleep. Of course, they are outdated now, lol. 

Eternal ordinances established before the foundation of the world don't become outdated.

[Peacefully]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Eternal ordinances established before the foundation of the world don't become outdated.

True, but the text that we had to memorize 8 yrs ago has changed:) 

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do those murals correspond with the portions of the endowment that transpire in the respective rooms? Some temples (as, for example, the Draper temple) have endowment presentations that simultaneously include both the film presentation AND the progression from room to room. 

No, there has been no progression from room to room in the Mesa temple since the 1970's renovation.  But I liked that they preserved the murals in the Mesa temple.  The Mesa temple is currently closed for renovation, and I just looked at the Mesa Arizona Temple web link, and in the Temple Renovation section, it lists:

• Interior improvements consistent with the historical character of the building
• Replacement of the furniture and finishes
• Preservation and augmentation of the historic murals

I'm glad to see they are keeping the murals.  I didn't see anything about the cafeteria other than that "Cafeteria food served" is listed among the Services at the top.  I'm not sure if that has any meaning with respect to how it will be after the current renovation.

I used the Mesa temple renovation as a comparison to what they might do in the Salt Lake temple.  Most of the temple visits in my life have been to the Mesa temple, and I always looked forward to the different presentation room opportunities there because the murals made each room interesting and gave each visit a unique experience.  I'm hoping they will be able to preserve the murals in the Salt Lake temple somehow, because in my opinion, it adds to the temple experience and retains important historical aspects to these temples.   And besides, it serves as a reminder and gives the older generation a few stories to pass on to the youth as they go to the house of the Lord. 

Edit:  I read further on the Mesa temple web link, and in the "Temple Facts" section there is a description of how the 1974 and 1991 renovations changed the murals (I had forgotten about the 1991 changes):

Quote

The Mesa Arizona Temple was originally constructed with muraled progressive-style ordinance rooms: Creation Room, Garden Room, World Room, and Terrestrial Room (no murals). They were designed around a grand staircase leading to the Celestial Room, occupying the highest level of the temple.

The Mesa Arizona Temple was closed in February 1974, for extensive remodeling that equipped the Creation, Garden, and World Rooms for stationary motion-picture presentation of the endowment; the Terrestrial Room became a veil room. The decaying burlap murals were removed from the rooms, and the salvageable pieces were shipped to Church headquarters for preservation and storage. A new entrance and an additional 17,000 square feet were added, providing larger dressing rooms and increasing the number of sealing rooms...

In 1991, the preserved sections of the original murals were sent back to the Mesa Arizona Temple for reinstallation and restoration. Only one wall in each room could be restored. The new ordinance room added in 1980, which did not have a mural before, was decorated with sections from the original World Room mural.

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by InCognitus

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I still have all of the ordinances memorized. I go through them in my mind sometimes before I sleep. Of course, they are outdated now, lol. 

Me too. Beats counting sheep.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve been called back to work beginning a week from today for a once-a-month shift. I’ve been trying to go through the wording in my mind. It’s surprising how soon what was once second nature can leave your memory — and amazing how quickly it all returns once you recapture what had been forgotten. 

Tell me about it!  I had been a worker for about 2 years when I was called to be Bishop. That means no ordinance work for 5 years. 

 It was tough catching up.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

I stopped going to LA because the traffic, even on a Saturday, doubled or tripled the hour driving time, even on a Saturday. And it's not just the time, it is scary driving in LA. The temple was not on a quick and easy freeway exit route. Then they started building more regional temples. So I don't think the decrease was necessarily because of lack of desire. 

Scary? What- 80 mph bumper to bumper?? 

And if you drop back, somebody just jumps into the gap... 😱

But you're right about the additional temples.

 But why then add capacity? 

You think maybe the prophet knows better than we do ? 😉

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

The temple was not on a quick and easy freeway exit route.

Very true, but it was there before the freeway was! Blame the Athiest State of California. 🙄

[Calm]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Tell me about it!  I had been a worker for about 2 years when I was called to be Bishop. That means no ordinance work for 5 years. 

 It was tough catching up.

I wonder how much the culture change of memorizing has changed people’s abilities as well. I remember my grandmother telling us about what she had to memorize in school. And the amount of spelling tests I had in school vs my kids.  Spelling and grammar and handwriting were most of my younger English classes, composition and creativity were featured more for my kids.  Handwriting...my daughter never even picked up cursive writing and my son lost his as soon as he left elementary school. 

[Mormon Dude]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

When the project was announced they went to great pains to state they would preserve the historical interior, and even restore elements like the woodwork to more original condition and colors.

But by removing the murals and progressive room structure they are not doing that.  Much that is unique about the interior will be lost, replaced with the generic beige rooms we see so often.

To me it's sad.

Yes, it's very disappointing. Sounds like they're essentially gutting the baptistry, creation, garden and world rooms and replacing them with five plain endowment rooms. The rendering of the new rooms released yesterday looks like any other endowment room in any other temple built in the past decade. 😢 I am going to assume that the original font will not be one of the two included in the new annex, as there'd probably be fights about who gets to be baptized in the original font.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Mormon Dude
Fixed image

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, Mormon Dude said:

Yes, it's very disappointing. Sounds like they're essentially gutting the baptistry, creation, garden and world rooms and replacing them with five plain endowment rooms. The rendering of the new rooms released yesterday looks like any other endowment room in any other temple built in the past decade. 😢 I am going to assume that the original font will not be one of the two included in the new annex, as there'd probably be fights about who gets to be baptized in the original font.

That is nothing short of a tragedy.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I wonder how much the culture change of memorizing has changed people’s abilities as well. I remember my grandmother telling us about what she had to memorize in school. And the amount of spelling tests I had in school vs my kids.  Spelling and grammar and handwriting were most of my younger English classes, composition and creativity were featured more for my kids.  Handwriting...my daughter never even picked up cursive writing and my son lost his as soon as he left elementary school. 

I once had a job doing seminars, and due to regulations every word had to be legally approved- I had to memorize 18 pages of double spaced material. That was easier than learning only the initiatories in the temple because I could study hard for a few hours alone, at home every day. But it was only having a few minutes with each study session a week apart that was a killer! Sometimes I would walk out of the temple trying to recite what I had "learned" and there was nothing there I could recite!

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I wonder how much the culture change of memorizing has changed people’s abilities as well. I remember my grandmother telling us about what she had to memorize in school. And the amount of spelling tests I had in school vs my kids.  Spelling and grammar and handwriting were most of my younger English classes, composition and creativity were featured more for my kids.  Handwriting...my daughter never even picked up cursive writing and my son lost his as soon as he left elementary school. 

I was always embarrassed when going to the temple for my in-law's birthdays every year and being the last one of the group in the celestial room. I'd never memorized the very end. Or would get flustered easily. My husband though, learned and received a gift from serving his mission with great memorization skills that have helped him in different ways throughout his life. Recently he's had to memorize for his job, a bunch of electrical panels, he's not an electrician. It's for water treatment for buildings. He recites many, many scriptures as well. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

When the project was announced they went to great pains to state they would preserve the historical interior, and even restore elements like the woodwork to more original condition and colors.

Yes. Something big clearly happened between then and now ... unless one is willing to believe that they lied and this was the plan all along?

All of the spaces being repurposed are below ground level. I think it possible that work on the foundation revealed significant structural issues/damage that made preservation impossible.

Or maybe a divine 'course correction' was given. It is interesting that the updated plans have been applied to Manti as well.

In any case, hand-wringing presumes that Church leaders are acting against the will of the Lord, and I have seen zero evidence that the Lord has been revealing His will to those commenting in this thread, including me. And all that leaves us with are the words in the First Presidency's statement, guesses and, in the case of some, personal sentimentality.

6 hours ago, Mormon Dude said:

I am going to assume that the original font will not be one of the two included in the new annex, as there'd probably be fights about who gets to be baptized in the original font.

Because people have been fighting (!) over access to an original sealing room versus those that were added onto the side of the building later? 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

I wonder why they can't get modern painters to paint murals on the wall? if they are getting of the old ones, put up new ones

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yes. Something big clearly happened between then and now ... unless one is willing to believe that they lied and this was the plan all along?

All of the spaces being repurposed are below ground level. I think it possible that work on the foundation revealed significant structural issues/damage that made preservation impossible.

Or maybe a divine 'course correction' was given. It is interesting that the updated plans have been applied to Manti as well.

In any case, hand-wringing presumes that Church leaders are acting against the will of the Lord, and I have seen zero evidence that the Lord has been revealing His will to those commenting in this thread, including me. And all that leaves us with are the words in the First Presidency's statement, guesses and, in the case of some, personal sentimentality.

Because people have been fighting (!) over access to an original sealing room versus those that were added onto the side of the building later? 

I don't believe it's either for or against the Lord's will.  I doubt he said anything on the subject.  He's probably leaving the stewardship of this temple in their administrative hands.

And at least you recognize that they have gone back on what they said.  We can only speculate why.  And at least in my case be saddened by it.  It won't change the ordinance but it will greatly change the special place this temple held.  Just another cookie cutter design.

[Mormon Dude]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

All of the spaces being repurposed are below ground level. I think it possible that work on the foundation revealed significant structural issues/damage that made preservation impossible.

Actually, that's not true. The world room (which is being torn out) is on the second level, same as the terrestrial room and celestial room (which are mostly being preserved).

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Because people have been fighting (!) over access to an original sealing room versus those that were added onto the side of the building later? 

I don't know if it was a problem in Salt Lake, but for several years a family member helped with the scheduling of live ordinances in one of Utah's other pioneer temples. It had modern sealing rooms in the annex along with historic ones in the temple proper. While the historic ones were mostly used for proxy work, they could also be used on a limited basis for live sealings. Couples requesting a historic sealing room was common, but after learning of the limited capacity, many opted for a larger modern one. Although there were always those willing to adjust both their wedding date and the size of their party to be married in a historic room.

Stick two baptismal fonts in close proximity, with one being modern and one being the original pioneer font, and I am sure there will be many requests to use (or at least see) the original one. Saying people would fight about it was a bit dramatic on my part, but I know full well that patrons have argued with temple workers on many an occasion, usually over the simplest of things. But in the end, I wouldn't be surprised if both fonts are new, simply to avoid the requests and the "museum" feel including the pioneer one could engender. Guess we'll find out in a few years.

 

 

[Stargazer]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:10 AM, mfbukowski said:

There have been continuing problems, I have heard, with the managers of the cafeterias- my understanding is that they are private businesses, not run by the church, and so there can be conflicts between the quest for profits for the contractors vs the way one would want such an operation to be run inside the Lord's House.  It's a great convenience but the church is not in the cafeteria business where there are corners to be cut in quality, cleanliness standards etc.

And then in states where restaurants are held to high health standards, sometimes access has been difficult for health inspectors etc.   But that is just gossip- I am just reporting stories I have heard and I have no evidence but a few personal experiences and complaints I have heard.

It will be inconvenient but sometimes the "money lenders" can conflict with the spiritual values we expect to experience especially in the temple.

I have a doubt that the temple cafeterias are run by private businesses. For example, many years ago a friend of ours was the manager of the cafeteria in the Seattle temple, and she was a church employee. Things change over time of course, but it seems very unlikely that the church would farm out management of the cafeterias to outside businesses. Why would they do so, anyway? The clothing laundry people aren't private contractors, nor are the security people, so why the cafeterias?

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe it's either for or against the Lord's will.  I doubt he said anything on the subject.  He's probably leaving the stewardship of this temple in their administrative hands.

And at least you recognize that they have gone back on what they said.  We can only speculate why.  And at least in my case be saddened by it.  It won't change the ordinance but it will greatly change the special place this temple held.  Just another cookie cutter design.

Often, the Lord leaves it up to his servants for a season to engage in fact-finding and acquisition of knowledge and experience. Doesn’t mean He won’t at some point in the process provide inspiration, perhaps in the ratification of a particular course of action that has been arrived at in due time.  
 

I can identify times in my life (and the lives of others, including the Prophet Joseph Smith and President Spencer W. Kimball) when answers to prayers have not come until after a protracted period of uncertainty and effort. It seems to be SOP for Deity. It’s a faith strengthener in that faith, like a muscle, grows stronger in the exercise of it. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I have a doubt that the temple cafeterias are run by private businesses. For example, many years ago a friend of ours was the manager of the cafeteria in the Seattle temple, and she was a church employee. Things change over time of course, but it seems very unlikely that the church would farm out management of the cafeterias to outside businesses. Why would they do so, anyway? The clothing laundry people aren't private contractors, nor are the security people, so why the cafeterias?

I will do more checking - but I have personally heard from cafeteria workers that the management has been changed and many of the workers were unhappy about some conditions, including not following health codes.  One of the individuals spent years in the food service business in the private sector and was called to work in the temple cafeteria and was shocked that some health codes were not followed.

Also sometimes members do not understand that the temple is not "run" by the temple President.  The President is strictly the spiritual leader, and does not have any responsibilities for employee issues.  A change in leadership could be perceived as a change in management- and perhaps that is what the employee was perceived.

Also I want to suggest that in my original post about this- I should have changed one problematic word this way : " ...there can be conflicts between the quest for profits for the contractors management vs the way one would want such an operation to be run inside the Lord's House."

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I will do more checking - but I have personally heard from cafeteria workers that the management has been changed and many of the workers were unhappy about some conditions, including not following health codes.  One of the individuals spent years in the food service business in the private sector and was called to work in the temple cafeteria and was shocked that some health codes were not followed.

Also sometimes members do not understand that the temple is not "run" by the temple President.  The President is strictly the spiritual leader, and does not have any responsibilities for employee issues.  A change in leadership could be perceived as a change in management- and perhaps that is what the employee was perceived.

Also I want to suggest that in my original post about this- I should have changed one problematic word this way : " ...there can be conflicts between the quest for profits for the contractors management vs the way one would want such an operation to be run inside the Lord's House."

I think the phrase “quest for profits” is problematic. I earnestly doubt that a private company would be allowed to come into the temple and profit off of the patrons and workers. I would be surprised if it were not an internal, non-profit operation. It would be like the cafeteria in the Church Office Building in Salt Lake City. If I understand correctly (and I could be wrong), that cafeteria is non-profit, does not collect state sales tax and is there only for the convenience of the COB employees and guests. The outside public may not frequent the cafeteria. The workers and managers of the cafeteria are themselves Church employees. The cafeteria is not a contracted operation. 

In this, it would be somewhat analogous to the clothing rental and laundry provided in some temples. The clothing is rented out only as a matter of convenience for temple patrons, and the rental charge is only to cover costs, not make a profit. 
 

My hunch is that what you have suggested is indeed the case: that the disgruntled employee or employees you have cited are teed off about changes made by a new Church-employee brought on to be cafeteria boss.

Edited March 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd