More details on Salt Lake Temple renovation released

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

I would have liked to have seen a live performance endowment just for the experience, but I'm not sure if I'd get anything more out of it than just watching the video.

Maybe the Lord can give us the full endowment experience and we can watch a vision of the actual creation on a Mount as he did for Abraham, Moses, and others.

But would that be more like the live action or movie....

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Did it say that? Putting in a screen doesn't mean the murals have to go, does it?

As per the announcement, the murals were painted on the old-style plaster-and-lath, walls, and it is impossible to know if they could be moved without damage. 
 

Furthermore, the murals were designed to go with the room-to-room progression (creation room, garden room, world room, etc.,) and the murals just wouldn’t fit with the new configuration. 
 

Time to turn the page in history, I guess. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Maybe the Lord can give us the full endowment experience and we can watch a vision of the actual creation on a Mount as he did for Abraham, Moses, and others.

But would that be more like the live action or movie....

Somehow, I doubt either does it justice. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As per the announcement, the murals were painted on the old-style plaster-and-lath, walls, and it is impossible to know if they could be moved without damage. 
 

Furthermore, the murals were designed to go with the room-to-room progression (creation room, garden room, world room, etc.,) and the murals just wouldn’t fit with the new configuration. 
 

Time to turn the page in history, I guess. 

 This is a very busy time and my life and often I only respond to posts  which  have  mentioned my name.

 So I posted that before I actually read the OP.

 Not a good practice. But thanks for your answer

In the LA temple there were many years in which the entire presentation was made on film, in, say, the creation from etc.

Three different sessions might be going on, each in one room or other, but no one ever complained about the murals.

 But now for years it is clear that temple attendance is dwindling.

 We have had sessions with only 1 or 2 patrons, and bring in temple workers to do everything required . One ceremony requires 10-12 attendees and about half the time we have fewer than that and so workers become "patrons"

 But it has happened a few times when from the entire Los Angeles temple district we only have gotten 1 or 2 patrons.  The district goes up all the way to Bakersfield. Admittedly I am talking about Thursday nights which one would expect might be slow- but virtually no one?

 It's heartbreaking.

Edited March 13, 2021 by mfbukowski

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Glad I went in the last few years. I can say it really happened. I remember riding in the elevator to the parking lot with Adam & Eve. 

And that's pretty much how I envision the fall:  "Take this elevator down to the parking lot, you can get out there".

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

And that's pretty much how I envision the fall:  "Take this elevator down to the parking lot, you can get out there".

😄

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

And that's pretty much how I envision the fall:  "Take this elevator down to the parking lot, you can get out there".

Well, there may be a reason for that...

[Scott Lloyd]

No one has mentioned the discontinuance of the temple cafeteria. The prospect of having a prepared lunch or dinner in the temple was kind of fun and appealing. 
 

But the saving of resources — especially human ones — makes sense. If I were to be called to serve in the Salt Lake Temple, I would prefer it to be as an ordinance worker rather than kitchen help. 
 

I suppose an appealing replacement would be to do a session and then go to the Lion House or one of the numerous other eateries in downtown Salt Lake. 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As per the announcement, the murals were painted on the old-style plaster-and-lath, walls, and it is impossible to know if they could be moved without damage. 
 

Furthermore, the murals were designed to go with the room-to-room progression (creation room, garden room, world room, etc.,) and the murals just wouldn’t fit with the new configuration. 
 

Time to turn the page in history, I guess. 

When the Mesa Arizona temple was renovated in the mid-70's, they kept some of the murals where they could.  It doesn't need to represent the stage of progression in my opinion, but it served as a reminder of how some of the rooms were used in the past and also reminded us of the dedicated hard work that went into the original temple design and art work.  I hope they are able to keep some if not all of the murals in the new design of the Salt Lake Temple.

The Mesa Arizona temple is being remodeled again now, and it will be interesting to see if they keep the murals again this time.  The Mesa temple also had a cafeteria, and we used to go to it for breakfast after doing baptisms for the dead with the youth.  I heard that they aren't keeping the cafeteria in the new renovation.  I don't know if that's correct, but if it is true I will miss it.

[Scott Lloyd]

47 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

When the Mesa Arizona temple was renovated in the mid-70's, they kept some of the murals where they could.  It doesn't need to represent the stage of progression in my opinion, but it served as a reminder of how some of the rooms were used in the past and also reminded us of the dedicated hard work that went into the original temple design and art work.  I hope they are able to keep some if not all of the murals in the new design of the Salt Lake Temple.

The Mesa Arizona temple is being remodeled again now, and it will be interesting to see if they keep the murals again this time.  The Mesa temple also had a cafeteria, and we used to go to it for breakfast after doing baptisms for the dead with the youth.  I heard that they aren't keeping the cafeteria in the new renovation.  I don't know if that's correct, but if it is true I will miss it.

Apparently you missed my last post and didn’t read the OP link. The cafeteria is going away. 

[JustAnAustralian]

44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No one has mentioned the discontinuance of the temple cafeteria. 

The prospect of having a prepared lunch or dinner in the temple was kind of fun and appealing. 

 

Your cafeteria comments are interesting.

In the Melbourne (Australia) temple, (and presumably Perth, Adelaide, and all the other mini temples of the same design), there is a small waiting area outside the recommend controlled area which has a small fridge, sink, microwave etc and a couple of tables with seats. In the Sydney temple (bigger and older) it's much larger eating area, but I've only ever seen it being used once at a large scale. That was after a YSA activity and they were eating a bunch of fruit that they had brought.

I can't actually imagine regular food serving and consumption in a temple or non-accommodation temple annex. Though I suppose it's a good thing. Putting a nice big stain on either my temple clothes or suit wouldn't be ideal.

[InCognitus]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apparently you missed my last post and didn’t read the OP link. The cafeteria is going away. 

No I didn't miss it, I was talking about the Mesa Arizona temple in the last paragraph of my post.  Your comments about the Salt Lake Temple's cafeteria going away is what made me think about the Mesa temple cafeteria.  Are you saying that you know for sure that the Mesa temple won't have its cafeteria anymore as well?  That's the rumor I heard, but I haven't tried to confirm it.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

 

Your cafeteria comments are interesting.

In the Melbourne (Australia) temple, (and presumably Perth, Adelaide, and all the other mini temples of the same design), there is a small waiting area outside the recommend controlled area which has a small fridge, sink, microwave etc and a couple of tables with seats. In the Sydney temple (bigger and older) it's much larger eating area, but I've only ever seen it being used once at a large scale. That was after a YSA activity and they were eating a bunch of fruit that they had brought.

I can't actually imagine regular food serving and consumption in a temple or non-accommodation temple annex. Though I suppose it's a good thing. Putting a nice big stain on either my temple clothes or suit wouldn't be ideal.

The Draper Utah Temple where I serve has a break room with vending machines, refrigerators, a sink and microwaves. It is not frequented by patrons, though. It is used primarily by ordinance workers. 
 

Cafeterias used to be fairly standard in older and larger temples. There was one in the Jordan River Temple. I don’t remember, but I think they took it out with the recent renovation. 
 

In the days when temple districts were larger than they typically are today, I suppose a cafeteria would have had greater utility — to accommodate individuals or groups coming long distances, for example. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

No I didn't miss it, I was talking about the Mesa Arizona temple in the last paragraph of my post.  Your comments about the Salt Lake Temple's cafeteria going away is what made me think about the Mesa temple cafeteria.  Are you saying that you know for sure that the Mesa temple won't have its cafeteria anymore as well?  That's the rumor I heard, but I haven't tried to confirm it.

No, my reference was to the Salt Lake Temple. Apparently we were talking past each other. 
 

Incidentally, I think it would be awkward to have a one-room, film presentation in one of the rooms with a mural. I suppose it’s because I’m so accustomed to regarding the mural as a visual aid for the portion of the endowment that has traditionally transpired in that room. It would seem like a relic from the past, the purpose of which has been superseded by the audio-visual presentation. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No, my reference was to the Salt Lake Temple. Apparently we were talking past each other. 
 

Incidentally, I think it would be awkward to have a one-room, film presentation in one of the rooms with a mural. I suppose it’s because I’m so accustomed to regarding the mural as a visual aid for the portion of the endowment that has traditionally transpired in that room. It would seem like a relic from the past, the purpose of which has been superseded by the audio-visual presentation. 

Here are some of the film presentation rooms from the 1970's remodel of the Mesa temple as found on the church temples web site.  I like them with the old murals:

 

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by InCognitus

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

The Mesa Arizona temple is being remodeled again now, and it will be interesting to see if they keep the murals again this time.  The Mesa temple also had a cafeteria, and we used to go to it for breakfast after doing baptisms for the dead with the youth.  I heard that they aren't keeping the cafeteria in the new renovation.  I don't know if that's correct, but if it is true I will miss it.

There have been continuing problems, I have heard, with the managers of the cafeterias- my understanding is that they are private businesses, not run by the church, and so there can be conflicts between the quest for profits for the contractors vs the way one would want such an operation to be run inside the Lord's House.  It's a great convenience but the church is not in the cafeteria business where there are corners to be cut in quality, cleanliness standards etc.

And then in states where restaurants are held to high health standards, sometimes access has been difficult for health inspectors etc.   But that is just gossip- I am just reporting stories I have heard and I have no evidence but a few personal experiences and complaints I have heard.

It will be inconvenient but sometimes the "money lenders" can conflict with the spiritual values we expect to experience especially in the temple.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No, my reference was to the Salt Lake Temple. Apparently we were talking past each other. 
 

Incidentally, I think it would be awkward to have a one-room, film presentation in one of the rooms with a mural. I suppose it’s because I’m so accustomed to regarding the mural as a visual aid for the portion of the endowment that has traditionally transpired in that room. It would seem like a relic from the past, the purpose of which has been superseded by the audio-visual presentation. 

On the other hand, I have been in temples with beautiful murals depicting nature and waterfalls etc- so even in the recent past, the murals have not necessarily corresponded to the spiritual content, except perhaps in displaying the beauties of God's creations

[Rain]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

On the other hand, I have been in temples with beautiful murals depicting nature and waterfalls etc- so even in the recent past, the murals have not necessarily corresponded to the spiritual content, except perhaps in displaying the beauties of God's creations

A waterfall could work with "living water" which would always work with the spiritual of the endowment no matter the stage.  

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

On the other hand, I have been in temples with beautiful murals depicting nature and waterfalls etc- so even in the recent past, the murals have not necessarily corresponded to the spiritual content, except perhaps in displaying the beauties of God's creations

Were those murals in the ordinance rooms where they had been designed and intended as an integral part of the presentation of the endowment, or were they decorative art work in other areas of the temple? 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

There have been continuing problems, I have heard, with the managers of the cafeterias- my understanding is that they are private businesses, not run by the church, and so there can be conflicts between the quest for profits for the contractors vs the way one would want such an operation to be run inside the Lord's House.  It's a great convenience but the church is not in the cafeteria business where there are corners to be cut in quality, cleanliness standards etc.

And then in states where restaurants are held to high health standards, sometimes access has been difficult for health inspectors etc.   But that is just gossip- I am just reporting stories I have heard and I have no evidence but a few personal experiences and complaints I have heard.

It will be inconvenient but sometimes the "money lenders" can conflict with the spiritual values we expect to experience especially in the temple.

It strikes me as more than a little odd that the Church would bring in outside contractors to run ANY operation inside its temples. I would need to see some verification/documentation before I swallowed that one. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Here are some of the film presentation rooms from the 1970's remodel of the Mesa temple as found on the church temples web site.  I like them with the old murals:

 

 

Do those murals correspond with the portions of the endowment that transpire in the respective rooms? Some temples (as, for example, the Draper temple) have endowment presentations that simultaneously include both the film presentation AND the progression from room to room. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

22 hours ago, webbles said:

The church released an update on the Salt Lake temple renovations.  Bullet points from the update are:

 

Personally I think it is pretty sad they are going to gut this historical structure. Not sure I understand why they want to do this.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Personally I think it is pretty sad they are going to gut this historical structure. Not sure I understand why they want to do this.

Much of the project is an essential seismic upgrade. 
 

The interior remodeling appears to be aimed at accommodating many more temple patrons (doubling the capacity, as I understand it) and to make the endowment simultaneously available in many languages. 
 

Viewed in that context, it seems justifiable to me. Like the Sabbath, the temple was made for God’s children, not God’s children for the temple. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Much of the project is an essential seismic upgrade. 

The interior remodeling appears to be aimed at accommodating many more temple patrons (doubling the capacity, as I understand it) and to make the endowment simultaneously available in many languages.  

When the project was announced they went to great pains to state they would preserve the historical interior, and even restore elements like the woodwork to more original condition and colors.

But by removing the murals and progressive room structure they are not doing that.  Much that is unique about the interior will be lost, replaced with the generic beige rooms we see so often.

To me it's sad.

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

When the project was announced they went to great pains to state they would preserve the historical interior, and even restore elements like the woodwork to more original condition and colors.

But by removing the murals and progressive room structure they are not doing that.  Much that is unique about the interior will be lost, replaced with the generic beige rooms we see so often.

To me it's sad.

I think some of the interior is still being preserved. 
 

I think we should reserve judgment until we can better see what is transpiring.