Ex-Mormons on Shrooms

[MiserereNobis]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

For me it was more study about the nature of reality than fun. 

For me, too. It wasn’t about fun (recreational as smac keeps calling it), but instead about learning about reality, my mind, and God. That’s why I’ve said that the “bad trips” weren’t actually bad, because they were very instructive, usually much more so than the “good trips”. 

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

For me, too. It wasn’t about fun (recreational as smac keeps calling it), but instead about learning about reality, my mind, and God. That’s why I’ve said that the “bad trips” weren’t actually bad, because they were very instructive, usually much more so than the “good trips”. 

With a moniker like "smac"... oh nevermind...

🤯.

It was experimental for me.  "Is there God here?"

Nope

Next...

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Emily said:

You would think people would just go join the Sierra Club or PTA or something if they are missing the church community. Would be a lot safer than joining a Hookah club.

Your comments regarding the attempt to substitute drugs for a spiritual experience reminds me of an unpleasant situation we had in our ward a few decades ago. There was a "youth activity package" being peddled in our area, and our stake had paid to participate.  

The program was as follows: The ward youth were rounded up, quite late at night and taken to an unfamiliar area, in the pitch dark, where they would stumble around trying to prepare camp, with only the flashlights and advice from their advisors to "guide them."

After an uncomfortable night, they would get a very early wake up call, (estimated four or five hours of sleep). They would be allowed to eat one orange, then would spend the whole morning doing "trust exercise" type activities. At the end of the activities, they'd be given a loving letter from their parents, then would be directed to go to a private spot to read it. After reading the letter, they would return to the group and be given the opportunity to bear their testimonies. After the  testimony meeting, they would finally be allowed to eat, then return home.

The program was being sold by it's purveyors as a guaranteed spiritual experience. Lots of sweet music and crying teenagers providing testimony of the program's efficacy.

Now, no single activity could be pointed at as a really bad idea - except the hunger thing -- fasting without a clear purpose is just going hungry. But trust exercises, or stumbling around in the dark with only an advisor's voice guiding you can be fun, instructive and memorable.

But IMHO the combination of activities was over the top. To make my point, I'll give the activities less pleasant titles: Kidnapping, disorientation, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, emotional manipulation, peer pressure. And packaging and selling a "spiritual experience" -- priestcraft.

You can't manufacture spiritual experiences. Not with drugs, not with prepackaged activities.

"Search, ponder and pray" might be mundane, and quite frankly, it can take a fair amount of time and work, but it's the only way to get a real spiritual experience 

That program seems utterly nuts to me and less for what it did and more for what it was selling. Selling a guaranteed spiritual experience for your youth? Hi guys, pay us this money and we will give your kids the Holy Ghost, we have the power to compel God to do as we wish with this simple program. Just pay up and the spiritual strength will flow. (Cough) Priestcraft (Cough)

Sounds like a more extreme version of the worst of EFY where emotional manipulation is too often substituted for spiritual growth. Most of the activities except sleep deprivation seem okay to me individually but the package all together is a cross between military boot camp and a cult initiation (cult being used here in the pejorative sense and not the anthropological sense) with the worst of the former and there is nothing but bad in the latter.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

For me, too. It wasn’t about fun (recreational as smac keeps calling it), but instead about learning about reality, my mind, and God. That’s why I’ve said that the “bad trips” weren’t actually bad, because they were very instructive, usually much more so than the “good trips”. 

This reminds me of Stroke of Insight, neuroanatomist Kim Bolte-Taylor's recounting of her life-changing stroke. Her senses were altered and she saw what it was for one side of her brain to stop functioning, which was like removing a filter from her perception.

Very, very interesting.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

This reminds me of Stroke of Insight, neuroanatomist Kim Bolte-Taylor's recounting of her life-changing stroke. Her senses were altered and she saw what it was for one side of her brain to stop functioning, which was like removing a filter from her perception.

Very, very interesting.

My father’s personality altered some after surgery...probably as a result of the anesthesia.  He was overnight someone with massive empathy, willing to express his emotions, and connecting with the Spirit. It freaked my siblings out as Dad was the concrete foundation of safety for a couple of them and someone whose practical, down to earth behaviour had always been consistent, predictable.  However, my mother and I saw it as a glimpse into a view of what he might be like in a celestial setting. 
 

There was some negative stuff going on as well (I can’t remember what because I wasn’t there except for one day) so the doctor ordered a scan and they discovered a benign tumor had engulfed his pituitary gland. Went back in for brain surgery and when he came back out, he was back to ‘normal’.  It was a bit disappointing, but he hadn’t been able to get out of bed much during that brief time (two weeks maybe), so necessary. 
 

Ketamine treatment was described as our brains/minds being like a tightly built stack of pancakes making it difficult to get the deeper aspects where Ketamine would open up the spaces between, allowing closer inspection for some and new connections to be made that could result in being able to move out of depression and other negative mental states. 
 

For me, ketamine was first like an intensified trip through one of the Fantasia movie sections where music is visually expressed with color variations, like I was on a gentle roller coaster moving through mountains of ornate, bright saturated, jewel like colour.  It was pure fun, I felt like I was being given gift after gift of almost exactly what I wanted.  “Almost” because I was aware enough to know I was not getting any new ideas, doors weren’t being opened and I really, really wanted that. The bad trip was not gentle, but harsh and forceful and the colours were dark and felt like assaults rather than joyful.  It was more feelings that were nightmarish than what I was seeing.  So I have no clue what the drug experience might bring in terms of insight or how that might work, hoping to reach it when I try again.  
 

ECT was sort of described as working in the same way...rebooting the brain perhaps with the seizures. It got my daughter out of a very dark, zombie like depression, though couldn’t pull her up to no depression at all.  It seems to me like a different type of depression though, rather than moving her from a significantly negative state of happiness to a zero or slightly positive state if that makes sense.  Her face had become lax, expressionless, non responsive in the darkness rather than suffering, sad, in pain, anxious as happens now. 
 

Cannabis snapped me out of the darkness this January.  I was going as deep as I had ever been, maybe deeper. I am guessing that my brain was used to being depressed and like lack of exercise results in muscles that don’t fully function, the right set of neurochemicals were being less and less produced. Cannabis gives me  a mild flood of something that wakes up what produces those ‘cheerful’ chemicals I am also guessing, so when the cannabis dissipates I might not be so bright, but the darkness has gone. 
 

Weirdly antibiotics also move me out of depression (happened three times), so doctor and I are thinking maybe there is a chronic infection causing inflammation or something. Next step is to finding a doctor who can explore that.  Got one referral, just got to call. 
 

When I have gotten darkly depressed or numb emotionally, my ability to feel the Spirit is lowered or even gone.  This has been drug induced as well as whatever is naturally producing these states in me.  Yet the experience of the Spirit is not just emotional to me, there is a clarity of thought as well as a sense of closeness to something or someone.

 If drugs can hamper experiencing the Spirit, I see no reason why they couldn’t make it easier for some to access it. It will be interesting to see if I ever can consistently stay out of the depths if I feel it is easier to access the Spirit, if there is a greater sense of connection. I honestly can’t remember what it was like before or even if I ever felt joy as my memories are relived with how I feel now about them, not how I felt then, so can’t compare it. I do remember what it was like moving out of the drug induced numbness as I realized it when taking a shower and suddenly remembering how much I enjoy the sensation of water on my skin and I realized the space in my head that had felt like there was a weight on it...like I was buried under a mountain but restricted by the weight, not crushed...was gone and that part of me was breathing fresh air again or so it translated for me. 
 

If you haven’t experienced these drugs, I don’t believe you can understand what the experience is like, just as I have no clue still how ketamine might yield insight for me though I know how it lifts my emotions, makes me feel lighter, brighter for a few days, so I can extrapolate what it might be like to be able to feel joy and satisfaction again.  Without that personal knowledge, I don’t think one can fairly judge the value of the experience or whether it is ultimately good or bad...though I don’t believe that means everyone should try it.  I do believe people can look at those who have tried drugs and seen what kind of differences it had made in their lives, but again to be knowledgeable one needs to be aware of a lot of different people and I doubt unless one is involved in a community that is open to drug use, one will be aware of enough of the range of experiences to be able to judge even that way. 
 

In the end we need to actively bring something to any spiritual connection if we want a relationship, a sustained connection, just as we have to in relationships with our friends, family, work colleagues, etc. Otherwise we remain strangers simply living in each other’s space at times. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

My father’s personality altered some after surgery...probably as a result of the anesthesia.  He was overnight someone with massive empathy, willing to express his emotions, and connecting with the Spirit. It freaked my siblings out as Dad was the concrete foundation of safety for a couple of them and someone whose practical, down to earth behaviour had always been consistent, predictable.  However, my mother and I saw it as a glimpse into a view of what he might be like in a celestial setting. 
 

There were some negative stuff going on as well (I can’t remember what because I wasn’t there except for one day) so the doctor ordered a scan and they discovered a benign tumor had engulfed his pituitary gland. Went back in for brain surgery and when he came back out, he was back to ‘normal’.  It was a bit disappointing, but he hadn’t been able to get out of bed much during that brief time (two weeks maybe), so necessary. 

I know two best friends whose mothers each experience/d dementia. These precious, soft-spoken and kind women began using terrible profanities towards their loved ones as their diseases progressed. 

It's difficult to comprehend how profoundly fragile our ability to think can be, for better or worse.

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

These precious, soft-spoken and kind women began using terrible profanities towards their loved ones as their diseases progressed. 

While Mom never went that route as the worse she did was call a couple of professional caregivers dumb (and they might have been less intelligent as my husband met one of them), she became prejudiced. She wanted someone who went to the temple to care for her where before she delighted in being around anyone who was thoughtful or has lived different sort of lives.  She also was offended that doctors weren’t wearing ties anymore.  
 

But the biggest difference outside the way she cared for herself and others in mundane ways was she became very superficially traditional in her thinking. She shocked my sister by thinking it was inappropriate to quote Emily ****inson in church, she no longer judged spiritual experiences by content, but by label (apostles were spiritual, nonmembers not). This was a woman who taught us the gospel by using Jung and Swedenborg to give us insight in Joseph’s ideas in our teens and who had many more non mainstream religious books on her shelves than Deseretbook offerings...though she did have quite a few of Nibley and Maxwell.  She was still focused on scripture teachings, quoting them to the best of her ability, but in a smaller way.  Her faith was both childlike in how she trusted in the Lord and childish, selfcentered. 
 

It was rather horrifying watching the deterioration, especially since I have lost much of the ability to really emotionally remember her as she was.  I can see it in how I used to talk about her on the board as opposed to talk about her now.   I can describe what she was like as I have here because I remember using those words to describe her in the past, but I don’t feel how I felt when living those moments or talking about them as I know I once did. My current emotions overwrite my past ones too easily.  I can sort of get there when I look at pictures when she was younger, but I couldn’t  see the younger person when I was around her.  I am hoping when the negatives of my caregiving days fade, that will allow the past positives to reassert themselves in my emotional replay of memories again.  It is also possible my own depression and other stuff is interfering with experiencing memories in a positive way.  
 

The mind is so weirdly fluid and rigid at the same time. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

My father’s personality altered some after surgery...probably as a result of the anesthesia.  He was overnight someone with massive empathy, willing to express his emotions, and connecting with the Spirit. It freaked my siblings out as Dad was the concrete foundation of safety for a couple of them and someone whose practical, down to earth behaviour had always been consistent, predictable.  However, my mother and I saw it as a glimpse into a view of what he might be like in a celestial setting. 
 

There were some negative stuff going on as well (I can’t remember what because I wasn’t there except for one day) so the doctor ordered a scan and they discovered a benign tumor had engulfed his pituitary gland. Went back in for brain surgery and when he came back out, he was back to ‘normal’.  It was a bit disappointing, but he hadn’t been able to get out of bed much during that brief time (two weeks maybe), so necessary. 
 

Ketamine treatment was described as our brains/minds being like a tightly built stack of pancakes making it difficult to get the deeper aspects where Ketamine would open up the spaces between, allowing closer inspection for some and new connections to be made that could result in being able to move out of depression and other negative mental states. 
 

For me, ketamine was first like an intensified trip through one of the Fantasia movie sections where music is visually expressed with color variations, like I was on a gentle roller coaster moving through mountains of ornate, bright saturated, jewel like colour.  It was pure fun, I felt like I was being given gift after gift of almost exactly what I wanted.  “Almost” because I was aware enough to know I was not getting any new ideas, doors weren’t being opened and I really, really wanted that. The bad trip was not gentle, but harsh and forceful and the colours were dark and felt like assaults rather than joyful.  It was more feelings that were nightmarish than what I was seeing.  So I have no clue what the drug experience might bring in terms of insight or how that might work, hoping to reach it when I try again.  
 

ECT was sort of described as working in the same way...rebooting the brain perhaps with the seizures. It got my daughter out of a very dark, zombie like depression, though couldn’t pull her up to no depression at all.  It seems to me like a different type of depression though, rather than moving her from a significantly negative state of happiness to a zero or slightly positive state if that makes sense.  Her face had become lax, expressionless, non responsive in the darkness rather than suffering, sad, in pain, anxious as happens now. 
 

Cannabis snapped me out of the darkness this January.  I was going as deep as I had ever been, maybe deeper. I am guessing that my brain was used to being depressed and like lack of exercise results in muscles that don’t fully function, the right set of neurochemicals were being less and less produced. Cannabis gives me  a mild flood of something that wakes up what produces those ‘cheerful’ chemicals I am also guessing, so when the cannabis dissipates I might not be so bright, but the darkness has gone. 
 

Weirdly antibiotics also move me out of depression (happened three times), so doctor and I are thinking maybe there is a chronic infection causing inflammation or something. Next step is to finding a doctor who can explore that.  Got one referral, just got to call. 
 

When I have gotten darkly depressed or numb emotionally, my ability to feel the Spirit is lowered or even gone.  This has been drug induced as well as whatever is naturally producing these states in me.  Yet the experience of the Spirit is not just emotional to me, there is a clarity of thought as well as a sense of closeness to something or someone.

 If drugs can hamper experiencing the Spirit, I see no reason why they couldn’t make it easier for some to access it. It will be interesting to see if I ever can consistently stay out of the depths if I feel it is easier to access the Spirit, if there is a greater sense of connection. I honestly can’t remember what it was like before or even if I ever felt joy as my memories are relived with how I feel now about them, not how I felt then, so can’t compare it. I do remember what it was like moving out of the drug induced numbness as I realized it when taking a shower and suddenly remembering how much I enjoy the sensation of water on my skin and I realized the space in my head that had felt like there was a weight on it...like I was buried under a mountain but restricted by the weight, not crushed...was gone and that part of me was breathing fresh air again or so it translated for me. 
 

If you haven’t experienced these drugs, I don’t believe you can understand what the experience is like, just as I have no clue still how ketamine might yield insight for me though I know how it lifts my emotions, makes me feel lighter, brighter for a few days, so I can extrapolate what it might be like to be able to feel joy and satisfaction again.  Without that personal knowledge, I don’t think one can fairly judge the value of the experience or whether it is ultimately good or bad...though I don’t believe that means everyone should try it.  I do believe people can look at those who have tried drugs and seen what kind of differences it had made in their lives, but again to be knowledgeable one needs to be aware of a lot of different people and I doubt unless one is involved in a community that is open to drug use, one will be aware of enough of the range of experiences to be able to judge even that way. 
 

In the end we need to actively bring something to any spiritual connection if we want a relationship, a sustained connection, just as we have to in relationships with our friends, family, work colleagues, etc. Otherwise we remain strangers simply living in each other’s space at times. 

Wow Calm, you sure have a wealth of experience that is sure to be a help to those going through it. One thing I'm pretty sure has been proven is that cannabis is good for inflammation in the body, maybe over time it will help you as well. 

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

While Mom never went that route as the worse she did was call a couple of professional caregivers dumb (and they might have been less intelligent as my husband met one of them), she became prejudiced. She wanted someone who went to the temple to care for her where before she delighted in being around anyone who was thoughtful or has lived different sort of lives.  She also was offended that doctors weren’t wearing ties anymore.  
 

But the biggest difference outside the way she cared for herself and others in mundane ways was she became very superficially traditional in her thinking. She shocked my sister by thinking it was inappropriate to quote Emily ****inson in church, she no longer judged spiritual experiences by content, but by label (apostles were spiritual, nonmembers not). This was a woman who taught us the gospel by using Jung and Swedenborg to give us insight in Joseph’s ideas in our teens and who had many more non mainstream religious books on her shelves than Deseretbook offerings...though she did have quite a few of Nibley and Maxwell.  She was still focused on scripture teachings, quoting them to the best of her ability, but in a smaller way.  Her faith was both childlike in how she trusted in the Lord and childish, selfcentered. 
 

It was rather horrifying watching the deterioration, especially since I have lost much of the ability to really emotionally remember her as she was.  I can see it in how I used to talk about her on the board as opposed to talk about her now.   I can describe what she was like as I have here because I remember using those words to describe her in the past, but I don’t feel how I felt when living those moments or talking about them as I know I once did. My current emotions overwrite my past ones too easily.  I can sort of get there when I look at pictures when she was younger, but I couldn’t  see the younger person when I was around her.  I am hoping when the negatives of my caregiving days fade, that will allow the past positives to reassert themselves in my emotional replay of memories again.  It is also possible my own depression and other stuff is interfering with experiencing memories in a positive way.  
 

The mind is so weirdly fluid and rigid at the same time. 

I will always remember the story of your mother going on camping trips by herself! I'm always relying on my husband to be able to go on camping trips or even a trip by itself. Afraid to go on my own. That impressed me! The most I have ventured out to do is go to my local dollar theater and watch a movie by myself when my husband had a couple of friends over to watch a fight or game on TV.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wow Calm, you sure have a wealth of experience that is sure to be a help to those going through it. One thing I'm pretty sure has been proven is that cannabis is good for inflammation in the body, maybe over time it will help you as well. 

I make the most of what I got...at least in some areas of my life.  

Cannabis helps a lot (sleep, relaxing, depression).  The problem is it hurts as well (apathy, headaches, anxiety, grammar and spelling screwed up).  We will see if I can find a dose that does the better while not triggering the detrimental.  Since most drugs and supplements don’t help much at all while hurting tons, I am a fan.  At least it offers possibility right now.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I will always remember the story of your mother going on camping trips by herself! I'm always relying on my husband to be able to go on camping trips or even a trip by itself. Afraid to go on my own. That impressed me! The most I have ventured out to do is go to my local dollar theater and watch a movie by myself when my husband had a couple of friends over to watch a fight or game on TV.

I saw her as really cool when I was younger, someone who consciously and earnestly chose a different, harder way so she could create meaning and help others.  You saying that helped me feel a flash of that again.  Thanks.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/28/2021 at 12:47 PM, MiserereNobis said:

................................ it is legal for the NAC

Supervising: the Roadman is the priest in charge. He is assisted by the Fireman and the Doorman.

Procurement: there are licensed distributors along the Mexican border who get the peyote from licensed collectors in Mexico

Dosage: the Roadman, since he supervising

Interval: weird question... do you think about the interval between scripture reading, and praying, and other spiritual practices? You're still looking at through the viewpoint of medicine and the law. Anyways, to answer the question, in my experience, I was the one determining how often I would sit up in ceremony. The Roadman can easily deny entry into the tipi to anyone, so I suppose he also determines....................................................

Carlos Castaneda was likewise closely supervised in his use of mushrooms and peyote in Sonora, Mexico.  His teacher was helping him understand something apart from the drugs, which were merely a means to that end.

[Damien the Leper]

On 2/28/2021 at 2:18 PM, Emily said:

You would think people would just go join the Sierra Club or PTA or something if they are missing the church community. Would be a lot safer than joining a Hookah club.

Your comments regarding the attempt to substitute drugs for a spiritual experience reminds me of an unpleasant situation we had in our ward a few decades ago. There was a "youth activity package" being peddled in our area, and our stake had paid to participate.  

The program was as follows: The ward youth were rounded up, quite late at night and taken to an unfamiliar area, in the pitch dark, where they would stumble around trying to prepare camp, with only the flashlights and advice from their advisors to "guide them."

After an uncomfortable night, they would get a very early wake up call, (estimated four or five hours of sleep). They would be allowed to eat one orange, then would spend the whole morning doing "trust exercise" type activities. At the end of the activities, they'd be given a loving letter from their parents, then would be directed to go to a private spot to read it. After reading the letter, they would return to the group and be given the opportunity to bear their testimonies. After the  testimony meeting, they would finally be allowed to eat, then return home.

The program was being sold by it's purveyors as a guaranteed spiritual experience. Lots of sweet music and crying teenagers providing testimony of the program's efficacy.

Now, no single activity could be pointed at as a really bad idea - except the hunger thing -- fasting without a clear purpose is just going hungry. But trust exercises, or stumbling around in the dark with only an advisor's voice guiding you can be fun, instructive and memorable.

But IMHO the combination of activities was over the top. To make my point, I'll give the activities less pleasant titles: Kidnapping, disorientation, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, emotional manipulation, peer pressure. And packaging and selling a "spiritual experience" -- priestcraft.

You can't manufacture spiritual experiences. Not with drugs, not with prepackaged activities.

"Search, ponder and pray" might be mundane, and quite frankly, it can take a fair amount of time and work, but it's the only way to get a real spiritual experience 

 

 

 

Reminds me of how useless the Trek was to my spiritual life and how greatly it had been exaggerated. No disrespect to those who believe otherwise.

[Emily]

On 3/3/2021 at 7:00 PM, Damien the Leper said:

Reminds me of how useless the Trek was to my spiritual life and how greatly it had been exaggerated. No disrespect to those who believe otherwise.

I think the Trek is a highly spiritual experience for some youth, but I don't think that's ever been it's primary purpose. Treks help youth experience a little bit of what it means to "be a pioneer" - an important goal in a culture that builds alot of it's community identity around "Pioneer" images.

Community identity is important in the church. From the earliest Nativity Plays to Service Projects, Treks, Roadshows and helping the neighbor move...we define who we are as a people with our community activities. 

 

[Damien the Leper]

On 3/6/2021 at 7:57 AM, Emily said:

I think the Trek is a highly spiritual experience for some youth, but I don't think that's ever been it's primary purpose. Treks help youth experience a little bit of what it means to "be a pioneer" - an important goal in a culture that builds alot of it's community identity around "Pioneer" images.

Community identity is important in the church. From the earliest Nativity Plays to Service Projects, Treks, Roadshows and helping the neighbor move...we define who we are as a people with our community activities. 

 

That's fine but let's keep cultural context. A few days on the Trek will never teach a person like the Holocaust museum can. Granted that is an apples to tequila shots comparison but the meaning is intact. 

[Tacenda]

On 3/1/2021 at 8:07 AM, Calm said:

I make the most of what I got...at least in some areas of my life.  

Cannabis helps a lot (sleep, relaxing, depression).  The problem is it hurts as well (apathy, headaches, anxiety, grammar and spelling screwed up).  We will see if I can find a dose that does the better while not triggering the detrimental.  Since most drugs and supplements don’t help much at all while hurting tons, I am a fan.  At least it offers possibility right now.

Feeling that apathy thing for a little while now, maybe I need to look into the cannabis use and how to use it right. 

[teddyaware]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:29 AM, smac97 said:

I quite agree.  I worked, for a short time, at a medical malpractice law firm.  I was astounded at the damages caused by opioid abuse, often aided and abetted by medical doctors.

Yes, but the article sure makes them sound fun and harmless.

Thanks,

-Smac

As a one time Rock & Roller (lead singer, guitarist and songwriter), I was a regular user of marijuana and LSD and therefore have some insight into this phenomenon. I can assure anyone who’s interested that at least some of these people are using psychedelic drugs as a substitute for the enlightening presence of the Spirit of God that they once enjoyed. In my case, I’ve come to this realization in a reverse process because the drugs came first, followed afterward by the authentic revelatory power of the Holy Ghost.

For me, this bizarre turn of events provides clear evidence that, at least for some of these souls, the loss of the Spirit has been a traumatic loss and for this reason they’re turning to a counterfeit form of spiritual enlightenment in a futile attempt to fill the void of spiritual loneliness left behind due to the absence of the Spirit in their lives. It’s been almost 50 years since leaving psychedelics behind for good and, the thought of ever going back to them fills my mind with horror.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

the thought of ever going back to them fills my mind with horror.

Could you share why, privately if needed. As my psychiatrists (one did the usual stuff, one is for cannabis) are both recommending ketamine and cannabis, I want to be informed about the pros and cons...easy to find pros these days, harder to find well composed negatives. 

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

As a one time Rock & Roller (lead singer, guitarist and songwriter), I was a regular user of marijuana and LSD and therefore have some insight into this phenomenon. I can assure anyone who’s interested that at least some of these people are using psychedelic drugs as a substitute for the enlightening presence of the Spirit of God that they once enjoyed. In my case, I’ve come to this realization in a reverse process because the drugs came first, followed afterward by the authentic revelatory power of the Holy Ghost.

For me, this bizarre turn of events provides clear evidence that, at least for some of these souls, the loss of the Spirit has been a traumatic loss and for this reason they’re turning to a counterfeit form of spiritual enlightenment in a futile attempt to fill the void of spiritual loneliness left behind due to the absence of the Spirit in their lives. It’s been almost 50 years since leaving psychedelics behind for good and, the thought of ever going back to them fills my mind with horror.

I wonder if having had that sort of lifestyle at one time brings one to love the structure that the LDS church provides, sort of like a safety net. I had a period of inactivity right after high school for a year or so and hung out with a crowd that tried some drugs and alcohol. Drove me straight back to church activity and becoming a true blue Mormon through and through. That and my mother praying her knees off too. And then in my late forties crisis of faith hit. Maybe I'll head back one day again. Thanks for sharing!

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Could you share why, privately if needed. As my psychiatrists (one did the usual stuff, one is for cannabis) are both recommending ketamine and cannabis, I want to be informed about the pros and cons...easy to find pros these days, harder to find well composed negatives. 

The primary reason why the thought of relapsing is so frightening to me is because it would mean that I had lost the Spirit and, like the proverbial dog in the Lord’s parable, I would be returning to reingest my own vomit. It would be a great betrayal of the Lord on my part that would probably drive me to extreme emotional instability or even insanity.

That being said, I’m open to the need for some people with severe health issues to use cannabis, and other sometimes abused drugs, because I realize there’s a big difference between a gratuitous recreational use of these drugs and people having to use them in order to experience some level of relief from extremely painful and otherwise incapacitating health conditions. For example, I have a friend who’s nine years older than I who is suffering from extreme osteoarthritis and osteoporosis who needs to take a fair amount of OxyContin daily in order to be able to move and minimally function without constant excruciating pain. In her case, the opioid doesn’t make her feel high or induce euphoria but only serves to alleviate the terrible pain. She was recently fortunate to find a new doctor who understands and empathizes with her situation because there are lots of doctors today who are hesitant to prescribe opioids due to all the bad press they’ve been receiving of late due to recreational users who become addicts.

If you’re finding some relief for your chronic health problems by using the drugs that are being recommended for your use, keep it up because I can tell you’re the kind of of person who would only take them because you need to do so in order to function and have some quality of life. I’m sure you’re a brave soul and from the bottom of my heart I wish you the very best... Ted

Edited March 11, 2021 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if having had that sort of lifestyle at one time brings one to love the structure that the LDS church provides, sort of like a safety net. I had a period of inactivity right after high school for a year or so and hung out with a crowd that tried some drugs and alcohol. Drove me straight back to church activity and becoming a true blue Mormon through and through. That and my mother praying her knees off too. And then in my late forties crisis of faith hit. Maybe I'll head back one day again. Thanks for sharing!

It was a very difficult transition for me to adopt the LDS lifestyle because in my former life I was zany, freewheeling and a bit eccentric due to my creative mind, so trying to adjust to having a bunch of very conservative, straight laced “squares” become my new extended family took some time. The one thing that did make the transition a bit easier is the fact that my former friends from the world of Rock & Roll were really selfish, hedonistic people who were starting to get on my nerves even before the Church came into my life. I know it sounds a bit crazy that a regular drug user like myself would get annoyed with friends who were plunging deeper and deeper into wicked lifestyles, but in spite of my drug use I was the least immoral guy in the crowd and was even somewhat clean cut, at least when compared to the outright degenerates in my group of friends.

But I must say that after leaving my old friends completely behind after joining the Church, the members did eventually become beloved members of my extended family. But with that being said, I must confess I’m not your typical laidback, prim and proper Latter-Day Saint, as I’m notorious for my intense passion and creativity in many different avenues of my life. Right now I’m once again serving as the Gospel Doctrine teacher in my ward, a calling I’ve often had at other times and in other places. All tolled, I’d say I’ve taught Gospel Doctrine classes at least 500 times in my life. I must also confess that some members find my passionate and enthusiastic teaching style to be somewhat grating because they’re not used to an energetic type A personality who doesn’t fit the usual mold of a born and raised member of the Church.

My very best to you as you travel through your amazing life here on earth! Ted

Edited March 11, 2021 by teddyaware

[Calm]

6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m sure you’re a brave soul and from the bottom of my heart I wish you the very best... Ted

Thank you, that is kind 

[Teancum]

On 2/26/2021 at 10:49 AM, smac97 said:

This KUER article has given me something to ponder: Why Are A Growing Number of Ex-Mormons Using Psychedelics?

Psychedelic mushrooms and marijuana.  Seems like these are something like a new iteration of the "Tower of Babel."  Consider this description in the 2018 Ensign:

Mind-altering substances seem to be like the tower.  An attempt to find something of the divine, to "reach unto heaven" and man-made.  A "counterfeit."  Using materials and means other than what God has authorized.  An attempt to "bind or seal the people together somehow so they would not be scattered, and 'make {them} a name' rather than take the Lord’s name upon them," but "without authority from God and without regard to His commandments."  An attempt to supplant what they found in the Restored Gospel with an artifice of their own making, and one that that will, in the end, necessarily fail.

Back to the first article:

Well, Romans 10 comes to mind:

I think Urquhart is attempting to replace Jesus Christ, as discerned and accepted through the Spirit, with magic mushrooms and dope.  

We are, I think, inherently "tribal."  We want to be a part of a community.  The Latter-day Saint "community" is not in full flower, not yet a full realization of the "Zion" the Lord wants it to be.  But we have made some significant progress.  There is a real feeling of unity and common purpose that can arise through regular worship together, serving together, serving each other, serving those outside our community, and so on .  We seek and find communion with God through common prayer, scripture study, sacred ordinances, temple work, family history, missionary work, fulfilling callings, etc.  These efforts, in my experience, bring the Spirit into our lives, and create cohesion and strength, and a willigness to continue and endure, to strengthen ourselves and others, to build up our community even more.  Using the ways and means the Lord has given us.  And eventually, over time and generations, I believe we will get to where we need to be.  "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."  (Proverbs 4:18.)

For all the grousing and carping I see in online commentary about the Church and its members, there seems to be a real sense of loss felt by those who leave (as the above article seems to explore).  The loss of sense of community is real.  And per this article that loss is about much more than just ward activities, or helping someone move, or dropping off cookies of zucchini on someone's doorstep.  The spiritual experiences found by being in the community are, I think, also real.  And those experiences are lost when our brothers and sisters leave our community.  Some seem okay with that, and become satisfied with being entertained by the contrivances and technologies that our modern society has to allow us to pass the time: music, movies, TV, YouTube, social media (now streaming 24/7).  Food.  Pornography or other forms of sexual exploration/experimentation.   However, it looks like others want to re-create the "community" they have left, but on their own terms.  So some sort of community seems to be coalescing, but one that is but a pale imitation of the real thing.  Facebook instead of church buildings.  Meeting together to "partake" of a profane perversion of the Sacrament, magic mushrooms and marijuana, in order to experience a counterfeit of the Spirit.

"{S}eekers who find in psychedelics access to healing, personal discovery and even mystical, spiritual states of consciousness that harken back to their Mormon tradition" sounds a lot like "Zeal ... but not according to knowledge."  "Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

I can appreciate, to some extent, the sense of "chaf{ing}" here.  But I generally attribute that more to the "natural man" in me "chafing" against what the Lord wants me to do.  There is also "chafing" in functioning as a member of the Latter-day Saint community.  But that can be said for every community.  Our community has higher-than-average amounts of expectations and requirements, some of which are good (weekly attendance at church, temple attendance, fulfilling callings, paying tithes, service to others, Law of Chastity, Word of Wisdom, etc.), and some that are incidental and unfortunate and unintended side effects (keeping up with the joneses, pride, mistreatment or neglect of "others," etc.).  So we have some work still to do.

And yet for all the drawbacks of joining a community, for all the risks of "chafing" against community rules and expectations, most of us gravitate toward community anyway.

Well, unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances is dangerous.

I'm not sure what is meant by "useless."  People use drugs precisely because they are not "useless."  They often work for their intended purposes: feelings of euphoria and calm.  Deadening pain and pressures felt in everyday life.  The uses of these substances are many and varied.

Is the implication here that psychedelics are useful?  With the "use" being finding communion with God?  Like the Tower of Babel?

"All the drugs are extremely powerful."

Yeah.  So perhaps an article seemingly celebrating and advocating for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use these powerful, mind-altering drugs is not the best idea.

I am open to the careful and supervised/regulated use of medicines to help people facing mental illness and other challenges.

But Mr. Urquhart apparently isn't thinking about using mind-altering substances for medical purposes, but for spiritual ones.  Read on:

"Illicit spiritual experiences."

Sounds a lot like the Tower of Babel.

"Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

"Zeal ... but not according to knowledge."  

"Reclaiming authority" is an interesting phrase.  And it's fairly accurate.  From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism's article about "altars": "Today members of the Church make sacred covenants with God and consecrate their lives and all that they have been blessed with as they 'come unto Christ' and lay all things symbolically upon the altar as a sacrifice. To them a sacred altar is a tangible symbol of the presence of God, before whom they kneel with 'a broken heart and contrite spirit' (2 Ne. 2:7; 3 Ne. 11:20)."  I think the whole "put{ting} off the natural man" thing is an exercise in choosing to submit, through obedience, to the will of God.  In a sense, we consecrate our agency, our ability to choose, by covenanting with God to obey Him.  We promise to use our agency in the ways the Lord wants us to, and in so doing we become more like Him, and we accrue blessings to ourselves and others.

"Reclaiming authority," then, seems to be akin to taking all that back.  Reneging or turning from our promises to use our agency in accordance with the Lord's will, and then proceeding to make decisions irrespective of the commandments of God.  Check it out:

Indeed it is.  But then, it always was.

"Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Well, I rather doubt that.

I don't think God is to be found or known through the consumption and use of powerful narcotics.  Just as He was not to be found or known by building a tower to reach heaven.

I have no doubt that such "trips" are powerful.  

But I don't believe they are spiritual.  They are not the means whereby we can come to know and commune with God.  They are counterfeits of the real thing.

Ironically, for me the verisimilitude of these drug-induced "trips" ends up as something of a witness of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel.  I have had profound experiences through studying the scriptures, prayer, listening to prophets and apostles, serving others, and so on.  None of these experiences involved me introducing powerful mind-altering substances into my body, yet I had powerful experiences anyway.  

I sort of agree with this guide.  I see the Restored Gospel, and the spiritual experiences found within it, as the real deal, and drug-induced "mystical psychedelic" trips as counterfeit "spiritual experiences" sought by those who have already known the "real deal" and want to have them again, but on their own terms.  By "their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."  By building their own Tower of Babel.

Yeesh. 

Again, an article seemingly celebrating and advocating for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of powerful mind-altering drugs is not the best idea.

I'm glad I read this article.  I think it helped me better understand where these folks are coming from.  But it's also saddening because it also illuminates where they are going.  I'm reminded here of Matthew 7:

I find the notion of resorting to powerful drugs in order to have "spiritual" experiences to be incorrect.  Powerful experiences, spiritual or drug-induced, will not create a path back to God.  "He that doeth the will of my Father..."

Turning away from the "real deal," the Restored Gospel, and instead embracing powerful mind-altering drugs to achieve spiritual and personal enlightenment is, I think, the epitome of building a house on a sandy foundation.  It won't last.  And it won't be sanctified or ratified or protected by the Lord.  Its fall will indeed be "great."

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I certainly understand your opinions on this given what your world view.  However is is simply that.  Humans have uses various substances in their quest for spiritual experiences, enlightenment, etc.  Many with great success.  To call such experiences counterfeit or like the "Tower off Babel" seems to me rather pious and full of self certitude. It really is a big world and what is and is not authorizes to consume in order to seek enlightenment is really simply a man made construct.  If you are ok with them being forbidden and don't want to use them in your quest fine, But you and the LDS Church are a small part of the world and others may find as much fulfillment from their approach as you do from yours and for some former Mormons it may be better or them.

 

I very much agree with your comments about community and the "spiritual" loss of these two items disaffected Mormons may have. Heck I feel it and am looking post covid on ways to fill it that will resonate more with me than Mormonism currently does. 

 

 

[Teancum]

On 2/26/2021 at 10:57 AM, rodheadlee said:

When I was a child I acted like a child. Now that I'm an adult I left all that behind. It took a long time to grow up perhaps these people that were born in the church need to go through the same thing before they appreciate what they had before they lost it.

FYI I was 53 when I became an adult. 

Or maybe they have grown up an move beyond the LDS Church's heavy hand and control. II find the relationship the members of the Church have with the church and it leader that require a lot and emphasize obedience at the top of the very long list of things one needs to do to be in good standing like a parent child relationship.  And often and unhealthy one for many.

[Teancum]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:26 AM, smac97 said:

Actually, my argument is based on 1) the conclusion (not "assumption") that the Church is "true," which I readily admit is a statement of faith, and 2) a genuine concern about the article's celebration and advocacy of the non-medical, unsupervised, and illegal use of powerful mind-altering substances.

Sure.

My reference to a sandy foundation pertained to the illicit and unsupervised use of powerful drugs.

Who are you quoting here?  Where did I say "my way is right and everyone else is lost" or anything like it?

Thanks,

-Smac

It was the tone of your remarks.