JustAnAustralian Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: It's not an exclusively pro-Mormon board, but more like dialogue pertaining to Mormonism. And as such, it's likely to be frequented by church members, who may approach things from a ProLDS respective. Edited February 28, 2021 by JustAnAustralian 1
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said: And as such, it's likely to be frequented by church members, who may approach things from a ProLDS respective. You could always start your own thread on religious use of magic mushrooms from a non-believes point of view. Why would I? SMAC posted a topic and invited thoughts without restricting that invitation to believers. 1
JustAnAustralian Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Why would I? SMAC posted a topic and invited thoughts without restricting that invitation to believers. And he started from a believer's point of view, which you seem to have a problem with (evidenced by most of your posts in this topic criticising his proLDS viewpoint rather than discussing The Divine Assembly's use of magic mushrooms). 2
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 9 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said: And he started from a believer's point of view, which you seem to have a problem with (evidenced by most of your posts in this topic criticising his proLDS viewpoint rather than discussing The Divine Assembly's use of magic mushrooms). I see that you have edited your comment where you recommended I post elsewhere instead, so I am going to assume that you now understand that was inappropriate and against the board guidelines. Good.
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 On 2/26/2021 at 3:49 PM, smac97 said: We are, I think, inherently "tribal." We want to be a part of a community. The Latter-day Saint "community" is not in full flower, not yet a full realization of the "Zion" the Lord wants it to be. But we have made some significant progress. There is a real feeling of unity and common purpose that can arise through regular worship together, serving together, serving each other, serving those outside our community, and so on . We seek and find communion with God through common prayer, scripture study, sacred ordinances, temple work, family history, missionary work, fulfilling callings, etc. These efforts, in my experience, bring the Spirit into our lives, and create cohesion and strength, and a willigness to continue and endure, to strengthen ourselves and others, to build up our community even more. Using the ways and means the Lord has given us. And eventually, over time and generations, I believe we will get to where we need to be. "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." (Proverbs 4:18.) For all the grousing and carping I see in online commentary about the Church and its members, there seems to be a real sense of loss felt by those who leave (as the above article seems to explore). The loss of sense of community is real. And per this article that loss is about much more than just ward activities, or helping someone move, or dropping off cookies of zucchini on someone's doorstep. The spiritual experiences found by being in the community are, I think, also real. And those experiences are lost when our brothers and sisters leave our community. Some seem okay with that, and become satisfied with being entertained by the contrivances and technologies that our modern society has to allow us to pass the time: music, movies, TV, YouTube, social media (now streaming 24/7). Food. Pornography or other forms of sexual exploration/experimentation. However, it looks like others want to re-create the "community" they have left, but on their own terms. So some sort of community seems to be coalescing, but one that is but a pale imitation of the real thing. Facebook instead of church buildings. Meeting together to "partake" of a profane perversion of the Sacrament, magic mushrooms and marijuana, in order to experience a counterfeit of the Spirit. We are biologically tribal, I think. There is something compelling about moving and speaking together as one body, as one does in ritual and worship. There is something very affirming about sharing closely-held belief and conviction with others and then acting on them collectively. But, although it feels really good to have such unity and affirmation, I am very wary of getting real attached to such a situation, because of the power that tribal nature can have in influencing our minds, thoughts and emotions. I think a more loose association is healthier for all, one where people are ideologically bound together on much more basic, more objectively-supported ideals which don't require dependence on the perspective of a few. I think it is still possible for service, spiritual renewal and growth to happen in such a dynamic. There are drawbacks to both types of communities, and both will have challenges. 1
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) On 2/26/2021 at 2:45 PM, MiserereNobis said: Quote Mind-altering substances seem to be like the tower. An attempt to find something of the divine, to "reach unto heaven" and man-made. But these mushrooms are not man-made. They are made by God God made opium, too. And Coca. And all the chemical elements of meth. And yet it's hard to think that He wants us injecting these substances into our bodies (particularly in the Latter-day Saint paradigm pertaining to the Word of Wisdom). Quote Quote The spiritual experiences found by being in the community are, I think, also real. And those experiences are lost when our brothers and sisters leave our community. Some seem okay with that, and become satisfied with being entertained by the contrivances and technologies that our modern society has to allow us to pass the time: music, movies, TV, YouTube, social media (now streaming 24/7). Food. Pornography or other forms of sexual exploration/experimentation. Why do you only list negative ways of replacing LDS community? Because I think those negative ways are bad. Quote You seem to imply that those who leave the LDS church immerse themselves in shallowness. That was not my intention. I know plenty of people who leave the Church but continue to lead morally upright and virtuous lives. I am happy for them. The article, however, was about people who leave the Church and seek to replace what they've lost by turning to illicit and possibly dangerous use of powerful mind-altering drugs. Quote Quote Well, unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances is dangerous. I'm not sure what is meant by "useless." People use drugs precisely because they are not "useless." They often work for their intended purposes: feelings of euphoria and calm. Deadening pain and pressures felt in everyday life. The uses of these substances are many and varied. Just because something is dangerous does not mean it is bad or should not be attempted. So you advocate for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering drugs? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about that. Quote I also question your list of intended purposes of "drugs" in this specific context. Someone who is using psychedelics for spiritual purposes is NOT taking them for euphoria and calm and to deaden pain and pressure. Some likely are. And in any event, I can't reconcile my perspective on God with "using psychedelics for spiritual purposes." I get that other people can (though I think some of that reconciliation may be pretextual). I just don't think God wants us to turn to unsupervised, illegal, dangerous, mind-altering drugs to commune with Him. Quote Since the topic is people using psychedelics for spiritual purposes, I think you'll need to focus in on psychedelics and spiritual purposes, and leave out the other drugs and reasons for use. Why? How is using shrooms for "spiritual purposes" materially distinguishable from using other dangerous, illicit, powerful, mind-altering substances for other purposes? Quote We're talking about a very small slice of people here as compared to the totality of those who use drugs and alcohol. Generalizing the latter to the former is incorrect. I wasn't generalizing, though. I was speaking of former Latter-day Saints who are turning to powerful mind-altering drugs to ostensibly replace the spiritual experiences they feel they have left behind when they quit the Church. Quote Finally, to your first statement. Someone who is serious about spiritual use of psychedelics is not using them recreationally. The use of powerful narcotics is, in the legal realm, generally divided into medical use and recreational (non-medical) use. Quote They are not (or should not, until they have enough experience) be using them unsupervised. Good luck splitting that hair. What about the illegality of it? Who is doing this supervising? Earlier in the thread someone (Calm?) noted that even supervised use of powerful narcotics can be very dangerous, as our current opiod epidemic demonstrates. So who are these supervisors? Who is procuring the mushrooms? Who is determining the appropriate dose? Who decides the interval between trips? Your proposal seems filled to overflowing with some very big logistical and practical and moral and health risks. Quote In the article, it explicitly states that David had an experienced psychedelic guide. Right. Who was this guide? How was he "experienced?" Does he have any medical training? Is he on the "trip" too? Quote And in this context, referring to western medicine doesn't work. That would be like going to the lab and having a doctor watch you while you fast, pray, and read the Book of Mormon. Doesn't make sense. I don't understand this. I believe there is a place for the proper administration of medicines by highly-trained and experienced and credentialed and accountable healthcare personnel. I am far less convinced that some self-appointed "experienced psychedelic guid" has the means and wherewithal to properly manage and administer doses of powerful - and illegal - mind-altering drugs. Quote Quote Is the implication here that psychedelics are useful? With the "use" being finding communion with God? Like the Tower of Babel? This is a bit of implied circular reasoning. Psychedelics are not useful for finding communion with God because God does not use psychedelics that way. How is that circular? "Physically abusing one's spouse is not useful for finding communion with that spouse because physical abuse does not tend to work that way." It's not circular. It's axiomatic. More to the point, you will note I was asking a question. I am curious as to what you think. Do you think God wants us to use shrooms and/or other powerful mind-altering drugs to find communion with Him? Quote There are many indigenous cultures that would vehemently disagree with you on this statement. I also disagree with you. The spiritual use of psychedelics was a major part of my spiritual journey, which culminated in my conversation to Catholicism. It has been many years since I have partaken of psychedelics, but they were instrumental in opening me to divinity. I believe firmly that God was working through them to get to me. My experiences of union with Him with the use entheogens has parallels in my experience of union with Him while on extended Benedictine monastic retreats. I'm okay with that. Reasonable minds can disagree about these sorts of things. I likewise do not believe that the self-flagellation I saw in Taiwan is something God wants us to do. As a Latter-day Saint, I subscribe to several precepts that put barriers between me and your position. The Word of Wisdom. The body as a temple. Guidance from prophets and apostles. The overwhelming exhortations in scripture to seek out guidance from God through the Spirit. The utter lack of any scriptural exhortation to use powerful mind-altering substances. The apparent incongruity and incompatibility of using drugs to commune with God. And so on. Quote I'm pretty sure this is a typo in the article. If the word were actually "elicit" instead of "illicit," it would make much more sense in the sentence and especially in the context of the quote that follows it. Notice the parallel: "potential to elicit spiritual experiences" with "potential for spiritual growth." Yes, I think it's a typo. An interesting one, though, since "illicit" means "not legally permitted or authorized; unlicensed; unlawful ... disapproved of or not permitted for moral or ethical reasons." It kinda works. Quote However, I'll freely accept that psychedelics can give illicit spiritual experiences, much like any spiritual practices. I won't. I don't think God wants us to seek, nor does He provide, opportunities to commune with Him through the use of powerful, mind-altering drugs. I just don't think that's part of the plan. Quote Quote I don't think God is to be found or known through the consumption and use of powerful narcotics. Well, calling them a narcotic is certainly poisoning the well. "Narcotic": Quote any of a class of substances that blunt the senses, as opium, morphine, belladonna, marijuana, and alcohol, that in large quantities produce euphoria, stupor, or coma, that when used constantly can cause habituation or addiction, and that are used in medicine to relieve pain, cause sedation, and induce sleep. anything that exercises a soothing or numbing effect or influence: I wasn't intending to poison the well. The government designates them as narcotics. Quote I think denying the spirituality of entheogens is denying the spiritual experiences of hundreds of thousands of people, and those are just the ones who are living. That's a broad brush to paint with. Yes, I suppose it is. And yet, I continue decline to attribute the use of powerful, mind-altering drugs to the Spirit of God. I just don't think He wants us to do that. Quote I understand why you say this coming from your point-of-view and experiences. I disagree coming from my experiences of them and how they ultimately led me to Christ. They were a very important stepping stone on my journey to God. Just because I don't use or need them now does not mean I deny the reality of the impact on my spiritual life. Okay. Quote Quote I see the Restored Gospel, and the spiritual experiences found within it, as the real deal, and drug-induced "mystical psychedelic" trips as counterfeit "spiritual experiences" sought by those who have already known the "real deal" and want to have them again, but on their own terms. By "their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." I know the article (and this thread) are about ex-LDS using them, rather than non-LDS, but I want to address the bold. The spiritual use of psychedelics is rarely on your own terms, meaning that the entheogen will do what it will do to you. The point I was making is that I do not believe God is in the mix. The mind-altering comes by way of the chemical effects of these powerful drugs, and not the Spirit. Quote You have to let go of your desires, notions, and need for control. If you don't, the psychedelics often show you how much your ego wants to be in control, how much you want things on your own terms. You seem to be anthropomorphizing powerful, mind-altering drugs. Imputing onto them consciousness. Volition. Intent. With respect, I do not accept that. Quote Can you elaborate on the "Yeesh"? Here is someone who claims that the use of psychedelics brought him back to the LDS church? Are you not happy that he is LDS again? I am happy he is again active in the Church. That's the whole point of the story of the Prodigal Son, after all. That doesn't mean we celebrate and endorse the son's "riotous living" that was part and parcel of his eventual return. Quote Also, it makes me wonder if you are reading my story about how psychedelics were part of my eventual path to God and also condescendingly saying "Yeesh." Your story had no part of the OP. My "yeesh" comment was in the OP, before you posted anything. And it was in response to the article in the OP, not anything you said. Quote I'll just repeat that your list of "unsupervised, non-medicinal, and recreational" does not describe the spiritual use of psychedelics. I think it does. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 28, 2021 by smac97 1
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) On 2/27/2021 at 7:16 AM, Meadowchik said: SMAC is creating out of thin air motives for other people, Well, no. The question in the title of the article, "Why Are A Growing Number Of Ex-Mormons Using Psychedelics?", is answered in the article: Quote Mormon history is packed with accounts of dramatic spiritual experiences – experiences that it’s current members lay claim to for themselves. David, like many other people I spoke with, said that he had numerous spiritual experiences during his time in the church. He told me that, years ago, he attended a church meeting where his grandchildren performed a musical number. In the middle of their song, he was overcome with divine bliss. “I felt a lot of joy,” he said. “More so than I’d ever felt in my life. I just sat there and wept.” He wept again when, during his journey on magic mushrooms, he said he “came to know God.” Rachel grew up a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the Wasatch Front. When I interviewed her, she said that she frequently had mystical moments throughout her life, particularly during her LDS mission. “So often," she remembered, "when we would teach people about Joseph Smith, about the restoration of the priesthood, about the Book of Mormon, the spirit would come into the room – [a] warm, intense feeling of divine love and presence." Rachel believed she had a strong connection with the divine, and took her LDS faith’s call to seek and receive personal revelation seriously. But, after leaving the church, her divine experiences disappeared. She’d understood them as proof of her faith. If the faith was false, she thought, then did that mean that her spiritual experiences – the most precious and intimate experiences of her life – were false, too? Years later, Rachel had a chance to take magic mushrooms in the mountains with a friend. During her trip, that familiar, warm, intense, divine feeling returned. She said it filled her skin, bones and muscles. She felt like she had recovered a part of who she was. “I had left the safe harbor of Mormonism,” Rachel said. “And not just Mormonism, but also my spiritual identity. And then feeling that spiritual experience outside of the narrative that I had left behind…was just a really profound experience for me.” When I started this research, I wondered if there is something about the LDS faith that prepared those who leave it for mystical psychedelic experiences. All of those I spoke with believe there is. Rachel recalled conversations in her church and in her home about seeking and receiving guidance from God and the Holy Spirit. She heard this a lot. It is not only an accepted way of living as a Latter-day Saint – communication with the divine is expected. “In a practiced type of way,” she said, “Mormonism – at least this is my observation – tends to have a more mystical emphasis than a lot of other American Christian religions.” An underground psychedelic guide I spoke with, who also grew up LDS, said that one of the main reasons he and others seek out psychedelics is for spiritual fodder. In his view, “It’s no surprise that a lot of ex-Mormons have highly spiritual experiences [on psychedelics,] because, guess what: Their entire life was spirituality. So, I think that that highly influences these ex-Mormons’s trips.” Their reasoning is right there. Quote he's immediately assigning judgment to their actions, I am not. Or if I am, I am making a reasoned and reasonable judgment. I am not impugning their character or reputation. I am not condemning them. You, on the other hand, have repeatedly and publicly accused me of lacking both charity and humility. You have repeatedly and publicly impugned my character and reputation. Please stop it. Please stop personalizing this thread. Please address the topic. Quote and he's framing their choices in terms of how they have distanced from the church No, I'm not. They are framing their choices relative to the Church. Quote and then are necessarily doomed to fail. I think seeking to commune with God through the illicit use of powerful, mind-altering drugs is not the way God wants us to behave. I said: "An attempt to supplant what they found in the Restored Gospel with an artifice of their own making, and one that that will, in the end, necessarily fail." I stil think this. If you have an argument as to why I am wrong, have at it. I'm willing to listen. Quote One could similarly say that Mormonism is merely a pale imitation of Catholicism, Well, not really. Joseph Smith was never Catholic. He came out of a Protestant milieu. Quote people chafing at the demands of it and trying to replace their belief in a Christ of the Trinity with a false Christ of the Godhead, and that LDS folks are doomed to fail because of this sandy foundation. This doesn't account for the Book of Mormon, the restoration of the priesthood, living prophets and apostles, temple work, missionary work, and so on. You aren't making a very good argument here. Quote The OP content offers very little self-awareness about the collective dissonance of sincerely-believed dogmas in general, Not sure what you mean here. Quote nor about the mind-altering nature of religion and ritual, of which Mormonism is not immune. Go ahead and lay out your reasoning here. You've piqued my interest. Quote Mormonism was derivative of other religions In some ways, certainly. In other fundamental and profound ways, no. Quote and surely had its share of problems, Sure. But relying on the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances to have religious/spiritual experiences is not one of them. Quote but it is still here having carved out its own identity. Quite so. Quote This could be a product of it being the Restored Gospel, or it could be just another manmade system among many. Sure. But what it can't be is the by-product of the use of powerful drugs. Surely this point is not lost on you? Neither the scriptures nor the prophets and apostles want us to build a testimony based on dropping acid and taking shrooms. I believe the children of God can have powerful spiritual experiences. I don't believe God wants us to seek out those experiences through the use of powerful, mind-altering drugs. Instead, the scriptures exhort us to seek them out through study of the scriptures, pondering, prayer, fasting, obedience, repentance, sacred ordinances, serving others, and so on. Quote Being aware of the latter as a reasonable possibility is rational and kind. I am aware. Quote I think such awareness and humility about our own respective beliefs is vital to living together in this world, and therefore vital to being able to live to freely attempt to live them. Sounds good. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 28, 2021 by smac97
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 On 2/27/2021 at 7:18 AM, Meadowchik said: Don't forget the opiod epidemic and its devastating impact! Um, what? You object to the non-medical, unsupervised use of powerful drugs because they have a "devastating impact!" But when I raise concerns about the non-medical, unsupervised use of powerful drugs in a religious context, you throw a series of fits about how uncharitable and judgmental I am. What gives? How is it okay for you to speak against such drug use, but not okay for me? Thanks, -Smac 1
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 15 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I'm saying that his OP as written lacks charity. Oi. Can we get past the board-nannying? Please? I am the world's leading authority on what I think. What I think is that I have charity for the people described in the OP. Kindly stop attributing motives to me when I have repeatedly explained them to you. 15 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It centers his viewpoint where LDS beliefs are supreme rather than acknowledging that other reasonable, moral people make different decisions. Oh, brother. I have lost count of the number of times I have said "Reasonable minds can disagree about all sorts of things, including important things," or words to that effect. I acknowledge my perspective on the Church is a matter of faith and opinion. As is yours. As is everybody's. And in other news, water is wet and circles are round. So please stop carping about things that are self-evident. Please also stop attributing motives and thoughts to me. 15 hours ago, Meadowchik said: It fails to acknowledge that, to some, *his* beliefs are seen as counterfeit and *his* approach to the Divine can be likened to Babel. I acknowledge that. There. Happy? 15 hours ago, Meadowchik said: All that stands between one sincerely-held dogma and another is personal, unprovable belief. Well, no. That's very much not the case. 15 hours ago, Meadowchik said: This is a human tendency, to be expected, but while it is a constant effort to maintain common ground in things like law and reason, humility goes a long way too. Right. I'm not only lacking in charity, but humility, too. Please stop personalizing this thread, Meadow. Thanks, -Smac 1
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 13 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Why would I? SMAC posted a topic and invited thoughts without restricting that invitation to believers. Just so. But I am asking that you address the topic. Not me. Not my supposed lack of charity and humility. The topic. Thanks, -Smac 1
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I see that you have edited your comment where you recommended I post elsewhere instead, so I am going to assume that you now understand that was inappropriate and against the board guidelines. Good. Board-nannying and personalizing threads is also either against the board guidelines, or at least bad form. Please stop it. I am happy to hear what you have to say about the topic in the OP. I am not particularly interested in you publicly hectoring/nagging me about my supposed lack of charity and humility. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 28, 2021 by smac97 2
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: We are biologically tribal, I think. Biologically. Sociologically. Psychologically. Emotionally. Spiritually. 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: There is something compelling about moving and speaking together as one body, as one does in ritual and worship. There is something very affirming about sharing closely-held belief and conviction with others and then acting on them collectively. Agreed. 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: But, although it feels really good to have such unity and affirmation, I am very wary of getting real attached to such a situation, because of the power that tribal nature can have in influencing our minds, thoughts and emotions. Sure. Not all "tribes" are created equal. Far from it, actually. 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I think a more loose association is healthier for all, one where people are ideologically bound together on much more basic, more objectively-supported ideals which don't require dependence on the perspective of a few. Good luck maintaining community cohesion with that. 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I think it is still possible for service, spiritual renewal and growth to happen in such a dynamic. Could you give some examples where it has? And what sort of longevity do we see in such examples? 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: There are drawbacks to both types of communities, and both will have challenges. Then why is your (apparently theoretical) theory of tribalism superior? Have you even tried it? I am particularly interested in comparing your theoretical with the communities sought to be established and built up by the Church. I have lived in one such "community," a ward in Provo, for 15 years. We certainly have room to grow and improve, but I have seen many beautiful things come out of our cumulative efforts. Thanks, -Smac
cacheman Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 1 hour ago, smac97 said: I wasn't intending to poison the well. The government designates them as narcotics. If there are government agencies designating hallucinogenics as narcotics, then they are doing so in error. For what it's worth, the DEA does not (see the links below). https://www.dea.gov/taxonomy/term/331 https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/drug_of_abuse.pdf Also.... you have mentioned the illegality of hallucinogens, but in the context of religious use are they illegal? I assumed that you would be supportive of religious freedom. I believe that the church even supported the freedom to use hallucinogenics in a religious setting during the Employment Division v. Smith case. President Oaks has described the supreme court ruling in that case as a significant narrowing of the traditional protection of religion. That case is what inspired the RFRA. Does your view differ from President Oaks? cacheman 2
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Board-nannying and personalizing threads is also either against the board guidelines, or at least bad form. Please stop it. I am happy to hear what you have to say about the topic in the OP. I am not particularly interested in you publicly hectoring/nagging me about my supposed lack of charity and humility. Thanks, -Smac I was not nannying your post, I was disagreeing with your critical approach. I didn't ask you to stop talking, ect..., I am pointing out a lack in consistency between the value of charity and the way you have described other believers as like unto Babel and doomed to fail. 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Oi. Can we get past the board-nannying? Please? I am the world's leading authority on what I think. What I think is that I have charity for the people described in the OP. Kindly stop attributing motives to me when I have repeatedly explained them to you. Oh, brother. I have lost count of the number of times I have said "Reasonable minds can disagree about all sorts of things, including important things," or words to that effect. I acknowledge my perspective on the Church is a matter of faith and opinion. As is yours. As is everybody's. And in other news, water is wet and circles are round. So please stop carping about things that are self-evident. Please also stop attributing motives and thoughts to me. I acknowledge that. There. Happy? Well, no. That's very much not the case. Right. I'm not only lacking in charity, but humility, too. Please stop personalizing this thread, Meadow. Thanks, -Smac I have tried to make it clear that I disagree substantively with your criticism in your OP. I'm not at all trying to make it personal. The only personal thing I have said is that I believe you are a charitable person. I think personal compliments are allowed, while personal attacks are not. 1
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Just so. But I am asking that you address the topic. Not me. Not my supposed lack of charity and humility. The topic. Thanks, -Smac I would think that your OP and characterization of this group is part of the topic, is it not? I am talking about words and ideas you yourself introduced. I did not ask you to stop talking, I took issue with your argumentation.
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I was not nannying your post, I was disagreeing with your critical approach. You have repeatedly accused me of lacking charity and humility. You have repeatedly focused on me, rather than on the topic. I am asking that you stop doing these things. 28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I didn't ask you to stop talking, ect..., I am pointing out a lack in consistency between the value of charity and the way you have described other believers as like unto Babel and doomed to fail. Whatever. Please get back to the topic. 28 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I have tried to make it clear that I disagree substantively with your criticism in your OP. I'm not at all trying to make it personal. The only personal thing I have said is that I believe you are a charitable person. I think personal compliments are allowed, while personal attacks are not. Please stop talking about me. Talk about the topic. Thanks, -Smac 1
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, smac97 said: You have repeatedly accused me of lacking charity and humility. You have repeatedly focused on me, rather than on the topic. I am asking that you stop doing these things. Whatever. Please get back to the topic. Please stop talking about me. Talk about the topic. Thanks, -Smac I won't address the charity/humility objection to your argumentation because you are asking me not to. However, I will make it clear one final time that at no time did I attack you personally.
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 2 hours ago, smac97 said: Um, what? You object to the non-medical, unsupervised use of powerful drugs because they have a "devastating impact!" But when I raise concerns about the non-medical, unsupervised use of powerful drugs in a religious context, you throw a series of fits about how uncharitable and judgmental I am. What gives? How is it okay for you to speak against such drug use, but not okay for me? Thanks, -Smac Well it's my understanding that the US opioid epidemic is very pervasive, addictive, and deadly. But that "shrooms" are not addictive or only negligibly so in comparison. The nature of the use of each drug is completely different. So of course I view them differently, specifically that opioids are much more dangerous and are currently devastating the US. 1
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Well it's my understanding that the US opioid epidemic is very pervasive, addictive, and deadly. That is my understanding as well. 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: But that "shrooms" are not addictive or only negligibly so in comparison. Well, let's see: Quote The risks associated with psychedelic drugs are mostly psychological, not physical. Physically, psilocybin mushrooms are considered one of the least toxic drugs known. Although lethal doses have been determined from experiments in several animal models, recorded cases of death exclusively attributed to usual doses of psilocybin mushrooms in humans are extremely rare. Physical effects are minor but varied and can be unique from person to person. The most consistent reactions, such as dilated pupils, elevated blood pressure, and increased heart rate, are usually mild, and considered side effects of emotional intensification. However, these along with other reported symptoms like nausea, increased perspiration, numbing and tremors, can sometimes make psychological symptoms like anxiety, panic attacks, paranoia, and mood swings seem worse. Long-term physical effects directly attributed to the pharmacology of psilocybin are rare, and research suggests they may also be due to latent psychological disorders. Psilocybin and "Flashbacks" Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD), sometimes mistakenly referred to as “flashbacks,” is a condition unique to psychedelics, involving perceptual changes lasting weeks or months following the use of a drug like psilocybin. Though exact prevalence is unknown, HPPD is considered relatively rare, with no physical changes or neurological damage associated as the cause. And here: Quote Long term effects of “magic mushrooms” Currently, no studies have evaluated the long-term effects of repetitive use of magic mushrooms. Risks related to recreational use of “magic mushrooms” What is commonly known as a “bad trip” may occur, particularly at high doses. These experiences may be frightening and may include paranoia, loss of boundaries and a distorted sense of self. Impaired judgement during these “bad trips” may lead to risk-taking behaviour, traumatic injuries and even death. In certain cases, users may experience frequent or overly intense psychedelic events that may induce abrupt “flashbacks”, i.e. reliving the previous experience. Co-use of magic mushrooms with substances such as cannabis and amphetamines elevates the risks of side effects For individuals predisposed to or with existing psychiatric conditions, there may be an elevated risk of side effects. This association is still being evaluated. For individuals with cardiac diseases, short term effects such as increased blood pressure and heart rate could be potentially harmful And here: Quote Psilocybin, a substance mainly found in mushrooms of the genus psilocybe, has been historically used for ritualistic, recreational and, more recently, medicinal purposes. The scientific literature suggests low toxicity, low risk of addiction, overdose, or other causes of injury commonly caused by substances of abuse, with growing interest in the use of this substance for conditions such as treatment-resistant depression. However, the presence of negative outcomes linked to psilocybin use is not clear yet. The objective of this study is to investigate the negative effects of psilocybin consumption, according to the users' own perception through self-reports extracted from an online platform. 346 reports were analyzed with the assistance of the IRAMUTEQ textual analysis software, adopting the procedures of Descending Hierarchical Classification, Correspondence Factor Analysis and Specificities Analysis. The text segments were grouped in 4 main clusters, describing thinking distortions, emergencies, perceptual alterations and the administration of the substance. Bad trips were more frequent in female users, being associated with thinking distortions. The use of multiple doses of psilocybin in the same session or its combination with other substances was linked to the occurrence of long-term negative outcomes, while the use of mushrooms in single high doses was linked to medical emergencies. These results can be useful for a better understanding of the effects of psilocybin use, guiding harm-reduction initiatives. And here: Quote Possible effects of psilocybin include: euphoria peacefulness spiritual awakening quickly changing emotions derealization, or the feeling that your surroundings are not real depersonalization, or a dream-like sense of being disengaged from your surroundings distorted thinking visual alteration and distortion, such as halos of light and vivid colors dilated pupils dizziness drowsiness impaired concentration muscle weakness lack of coordination unusual body sensations nausea paranoia confusion frightening hallucinations vomiting yawning The effects of psilocybin vary between people, based on differences in the mental state and personality of the user and the immediate environment. If the recreational user experiences issues with mental health or feels anxious about using the hallucinogen, they face a higher risk of having a bad experience. Psychological distress is the adverse event most often reported after recreational use of psilocybin. This distress can take the form of extreme anxiety or short-term psychosis. ... Risks People who have taken psilocybin in uncontrolled settings might engage in reckless behavior, such as driving while intoxicated. Some people may experience persistent, distressing alterations to the way they see the world. These effects are often visual and can last from anywhere from weeks to years after using the hallucinogen. Physicians now diagnose this condition as hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD), also known as a flashback. A flashback is a traumatic recall of an intensely upsetting experience. The recollection of this upsetting experience during hallucinogen use would be a bad trip, or a hallucination that takes a disturbing turn. Some individuals experience more unpleasant effects than hallucinations, such as fear, agitation, confusion, delirium, psychosis, and syndromes that resemble schizophrenia, requiring a trip to the emergency room. In most cases, a doctor will treat these effects with medication, such as benzodiazepines. These effects often resolve in 6 to 8 hours as the effects of the drug wear off. Finally, though the risk is small, some psilocybin users risk accidental poisoning from eating a poisonous mushroom by mistake. Symptoms of mushroom poisoning may include muscle spasms, confusion, and delirium. Visit an emergency room immediately if these symptoms occur. And here: Quote In a survey of almost 2,000 people who said they had had a past negative experience when taking psilocybin-containing “magic mushrooms,” Johns Hopkins researchers say that more than 10 percent believed their worst “bad trip” had put themselves or others in harm’s way, and a substantial majority called their most distressing episode one of the top 10 biggest challenges of their lives. Despite the difficulty, however, most of the respondents still reported the experience to be “meaningful” or “worthwhile,” with half of these positive responses claiming it as one of the top most valuable experiences in their life. The results of the survey were published in the Dec. 1 print issue of the Journal of Psychopharmacology. The researchers caution that their survey results don’t apply to all psilocybin mushroom use, since the questionnaire wasn’t designed to assess “good trip” experiences. And, the survey wasn’t designed to determine how often bad trips occur. “Considering both the negative effects and the positive outcomes that respondents sometimes reported, the survey results confirm our view that neither users nor researchers can be cavalier about the risks associated with psilocybin,” says Roland Griffiths, Ph.D., a psychopharmacologist and professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and neurosciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Griffiths has spent more than 15 years conducting studies of psilocybin’s capacity to produce profound, mystical-type experiences, treat psychological anxiety and depression and to aid in smoking cessation. ... Based on the survey data that assessed each respondent’s absolute worst bad trip, 10.7 percent of the respondents said they put themselves or others at risk for physical harm during their bad trip. Some 2.6 percent said they acted aggressively or violently, and 2.7 percent said they sought medical help. Five of the participants with self-reported pre-existing anxiety, depression or suicidal thoughts attempted suicide while on the drug during their worst bad trip, which the researchers say is indicative of requiring a supportive and safe environment during use, like those conditions used in ongoing research studies. However, six people reported that their suicidal thoughts disappeared after their experience on their worst bad trip — the latter result coinciding with a recent study published by Griffiths showing the antidepressive properties of psilocybin in cancer patients. Use of Psilocybin seems like a very mixed bag. And in my view, God is nowhere in that bag. I just don't believe He wants us to resort to powerfulj, mind-altering drugs to commune with Him. Thanks, -Smac 1
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 9 minutes ago, smac97 said: That is my understanding as well. Well, let's see: And here: And here: And here: And here: Use of Psilocybin seems like a very mixed bag. And in my view, God is nowhere in that bag. I just don't believe He wants us to resort to powerfulj, mind-altering drugs to commune with Him. Thanks, -Smac I wasn't evaluating the spiritual effects of psilocybin, just answering why I see them as vastly different from opioids.
smac97 Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I wasn't evaluating the spiritual effects of psilocybin, Nor was I (in providing the list of actual or potential adverse issues arising from use of psilocybin). 11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: just answering why I see them as vastly different from opioids. Understood. I think shrooms still carry quite a bit of risk. Thanks, -Smac
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: Nor was I (in providing the list of actual or potential adverse issues arising from use of psilocybin). Understood. I think shrooms still carry quite a bit of risk. Thanks, -Smac I have read personal accounts of psilocybin use with a mixture of skepticism and interest. I agree they are risky, especially because of the potential negative side effects of a "bad trip." I remember waking up from general anesthesia in my youth and feeling very frightened. Also I know well the severe hormone drops that occur about 10 days after childbirth and how difficult it was. IOW it is very clear to me that chemical changes in the body, be they artificially or naturally induced, can be profoundly impactful, and should not be underestimated. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Douglas Avans said: Frederick Madison Smith (Joseph Smith III's son and successor to the presidency of the RLDS Church) wrote a doctoral dissertation "The Higher Powers of Man". In the dissertation he encouraged the use of peyote. For a time he actively advocated its use among the Saints. just one of those fun facts you pick up along the way! Amazing. Did he associate that use of peyote with the Native American Church?
Meadowchik Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 3 hours ago, smac97 said: Not all "tribes" are created equal. Far from it, actually. I definitely agree with that. 3 hours ago, smac97 said: Could you give some examples where it has? And what sort of longevity do we see in such examples? Well I believe I have experienced community service (independent of church) in every neighborhood I have lived. Service is a fertile ground for spiritual growth, both as a giver and receiver. I have seen people literally run to comfort people in distress, give of their means to those in need, rally the entire community for a family when their house burned down, and simply exchanged very sweet everyday kindnesses on a regular basis. Both European villages I lived in had village-wide events where all who wanted to come were welcome. It was a good way for new people to meet and form friendships and for existing friendships to be reinforced. I have been at school events which have moved me deeply because of the simple ways they have valued and supported the children of the community. You mentioned the internet and Facebook specifically in your OP. I have seen communities serve each other through relationships cultivated almost exclusively online. I have seen people help each other practically and emotionally and lift each other up spiritually. I have seen a community of moms get a family in need through a harsh winter by providing food, money, toys, and furnishings, and service like childcare. I currently witness people create and build relationships online and support each other through devastating times online. Coincidentally, that community started about 15 years ago Although the original internet forum is gone, I still have supportive friendships with members of that community of moms. Several of them have helped me grow a great deal spiritually in ways that have impacted me and my family for the better. Those friends I spoke about all had different beliefs about religion but we were still able to support each other. Longevity is indeed possible in less cohesive communities, including ones that are not geographically connected, but I don't think it looks the same as a geographically-based one like a ward, or neighborhood. 3 hours ago, smac97 said: Then why is your (apparently theoretical) theory of tribalism superior? Have you even tried it? One problem I see in tightly cohesive, highly dogmatic, groups is that they are less adaptable. They are less accommodating of individuals who don't happen to fit into the group's model. And so they lose people, as many such groups are losing members now and have done of late. So to answer your question, a community based simply on mutual respect and kindness, like the ones I described above and have already tried and experienced, can allow for all types of peoples' elaborated personal beliefs yet still be supportive and spiritually edifying.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 30 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: .................... I remember waking up from general anesthesia in my youth and feeling very frightened. ....................... it is very clear to me that chemical changes in the body, be they artificially or naturally induced, can be profoundly impactful, and should not be underestimated. I recall many years ago coming home from the Utah Valley Hospital with general anesthesia still in my system (maybe sodium pentathol), and I was composing an original symphony in my mind -- despite not being a musician -- and I could hear it very clearly inside me. It was beautiful. So I am not at all amazed when some musicians take mind-altering drugs to enhance their skills. 2
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