Ex-Mormons on Shrooms

[smac97]

This KUER article has given me something to ponder: Why Are A Growing Number of Ex-Mormons Using Psychedelics?

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Late last summer, Steve Urquhart, a lawyer and former Utah state legislator, announced that he was forming his own church. Urquhart was once a highly conservative lawmaker, which was in line with his background as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from Washington County.

But personal challenges, and, surprisingly, psychedelics, changed Urquhart’s mind. He left the church and became a vocal advocate for progressive causes, including medical marijuana.

His new church, The Divine Assembly, bears little in common with Mormonism, particularly because its sacrament is psychedelics rather than bread and water,.

Psychedelic mushrooms and marijuana.  Seems like these are something like a new iteration of the "Tower of Babel."  Consider this description in the 2018 Ensign:

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The Tower

• Built of bricks that were baked with fire, as in an oven or a kiln (see Genesis 11:3). Sun-dried bricks had been used for a long time, but baking bricks made them stronger, so larger structures could be built with this new technology.

• Used bitumen (a form of petroleum used today in asphalt or roofing tiles) for mortar.

• Located in Shinar in Mesopotamia and associated with Nimrod (see Genesis 10:10; 11:2).

• Because of its location and materials, usually associated with ziggurats, which were stepped temple towers designed to be elevated above a plain, like a man-made mountain.

• Built to “reach unto heaven” and to allow the people to “make [them] a name” and not be scattered (Genesis 11:4).

• Failed to achieve its purpose for the people; instead, “the Lord did … confound [their] language … and … scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth” (Genesis 11:9).

What We Can Learn

The tower of Babel:

Used the latest technology. Our mounting technological triumphs, though they can be used for good, can also cause us to forget God and rely on our own strength. Man’s invention is no substitute for God’s power.

Was completely man-made. The Lord wants us to “trust in {Him} with all {our} heart; and lean not unto {our} own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5). “Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).

Was undertaken without authority from God. It seems that the people at Babel were attempting to build a counterfeit temple to “reach unto heaven,” bind or seal the people together somehow so they would not be scattered, and “make [them] a name” rather than take the Lord’s name upon them—and all this without authority from God and without regard to His commandments. No project of our own devising will bring us ultimate happiness; only God’s plan, including temple covenants, can do that.

Failed. A world that rejects God and, with pride and arrogance, tries to obtain happiness while disregarding Him and His righteousness will always fail in its quest. “The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day” (Isaiah 2:17).

Additional Facts

• The Lord’s people were commanded to build their altars out of stones that had not been cut with tools (see Exodus 20:24–25). And they built their temples out of quarried stone rather than man-made brick (see 1 Kings 5:15–18).

• The word Babel in Hebrew means “confusion,” but in Babylonian or Akkadian it meant “gate of God,” in reference to the tower’s temple function.

• Jewish tradition holds that Nimrod rebelled against God and tried to usurp His authority.

• One reason the people built the tower was so that they would not be scattered (see Genesis 11:4). Doctrine and Covenants 2:3 says the sealing power would be restored so that the earth would not be “wasted” at the Second Coming. In Joseph Smith’s day, one definition of waste was “to destroy by scattering” (Noah Webster, An American Dictionary of the English Language [1828], “waste”).

Mind-altering substances seem to be like the tower.  An attempt to find something of the divine, to "reach unto heaven" and man-made.  A "counterfeit."  Using materials and means other than what God has authorized.  An attempt to "bind or seal the people together somehow so they would not be scattered, and 'make {them} a name' rather than take the Lord’s name upon them," but "without authority from God and without regard to His commandments."  An attempt to supplant what they found in the Restored Gospel with an artifice of their own making, and one that that will, in the end, necessarily fail.

Back to the first article:

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After reading about Urquhart’s church in a column by Robert Gehrke at The Salt Lake Tribune, I attended a virtual conference held by The Divine Assembly.

“Load up the handcart and join Utahns and Mormons who are trekking into psychedelic spaces,” read an advertisement for the conference on Facebook. Many of the attendees, I learned, were former members of the LDS church who were interested in trying psychedelics or already doing so.

Who were these people, I wondered, and why, after leaving a demanding, orthodox faith, had they turned to psychedelics? Was there something about the Mormon experience that primed people for seeking out these drugs?

Well, Romans 10 comes to mind:

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1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I think Urquhart is attempting to replace Jesus Christ, as discerned and accepted through the Spirit, with magic mushrooms and dope.  

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Over the past several months, I’ve spoken with more than a dozen individuals, all of them once devout, faithful and committed members of the LDS church. For various reasons, they fell away from the faith, and in time, they found psychedelics.

They make up a loosely-knit but growing sub-culture of thousands of seekers who find in psychedelics access to healing, personal discovery and even mystical, spiritual states of consciousness that harken back to their Mormon tradition.

We are, I think, inherently "tribal."  We want to be a part of a community.  The Latter-day Saint "community" is not in full flower, not yet a full realization of the "Zion" the Lord wants it to be.  But we have made some significant progress.  There is a real feeling of unity and common purpose that can arise through regular worship together, serving together, serving each other, serving those outside our community, and so on .  We seek and find communion with God through common prayer, scripture study, sacred ordinances, temple work, family history, missionary work, fulfilling callings, etc.  These efforts, in my experience, bring the Spirit into our lives, and create cohesion and strength, and a willigness to continue and endure, to strengthen ourselves and others, to build up our community even more.  Using the ways and means the Lord has given us.  And eventually, over time and generations, I believe we will get to where we need to be.  "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."  (Proverbs 4:18.)

For all the grousing and carping I see in online commentary about the Church and its members, there seems to be a real sense of loss felt by those who leave (as the above article seems to explore).  The loss of sense of community is real.  And per this article that loss is about much more than just ward activities, or helping someone move, or dropping off cookies of zucchini on someone's doorstep.  The spiritual experiences found by being in the community are, I think, also real.  And those experiences are lost when our brothers and sisters leave our community.  Some seem okay with that, and become satisfied with being entertained by the contrivances and technologies that our modern society has to allow us to pass the time: music, movies, TV, YouTube, social media (now streaming 24/7).  Food.  Pornography or other forms of sexual exploration/experimentation.   However, it looks like others want to re-create the "community" they have left, but on their own terms.  So some sort of community seems to be coalescing, but one that is but a pale imitation of the real thing.  Facebook instead of church buildings.  Meeting together to "partake" of a profane perversion of the Sacrament, magic mushrooms and marijuana, in order to experience a counterfeit of the Spirit.

"{S}eekers who find in psychedelics access to healing, personal discovery and even mystical, spiritual states of consciousness that harken back to their Mormon tradition" sounds a lot like "Zeal ... but not according to knowledge."  "Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

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David was 58 years old when he took his first psychedelic trip.

He’s from northern Utah and was raised in the LDS church. He married and raised five children in the faith. For most of his life, Mormonism worked. It gave him community. It filled him up spiritually. For him, the church held all of life’s truths.

“I felt like I had the golden ring,” he told me.

As he grew older, David – who, like the other people I interviewed, spoke on condition of anonymity – began to chafe at the sense that his choices, including what he put in his body, weren’t his own. They were made for him by his faith.

In adherence with Mormon teaching, David abstained from coffee, alcohol, tobacco and all drugs.

“I was 55 years old when I had my first cup of coffee,” David said during a Zoom conversation. “And I had to sneak to do it. You’ve got a 55-year-old man sneaking to take a cup of coffee like a kid sneaking to {steal a cookie}.”

Many people I spoke with shared David’s opinion that the teachings, cultural pressures and expectations within Mormonism were difficult to live up to and left little room for personal expression. Failing to meet those standards left them feeling inadequate, even traumatized.

At 58, with his children fully grown, David got a divorce and left the church. He was striking out on his own path, learning for the first time who he was without the structures of a marriage or a faith to define him. And he was eager to continue experimenting.

I can appreciate, to some extent, the sense of "chaf{ing}" here.  But I generally attribute that more to the "natural man" in me "chafing" against what the Lord wants me to do.  There is also "chafing" in functioning as a member of the Latter-day Saint community.  But that can be said for every community.  Our community has higher-than-average amounts of expectations and requirements, some of which are good (weekly attendance at church, temple attendance, fulfilling callings, paying tithes, service to others, Law of Chastity, Word of Wisdom, etc.), and some that are incidental and unfortunate and unintended side effects (keeping up with the joneses, pride, mistreatment or neglect of "others," etc.).  So we have some work still to do.

And yet for all the drawbacks of joining a community, for all the risks of "chafing" against community rules and expectations, most of us gravitate toward community anyway.

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A couple years ago, David heard an interview on RadioWest with the journalist Michael Pollan. Pollan’s book How to Change Your Mind, about the history and science of psychedelics, reintroduced the drugs to a new generation. It also legitimized the drugs for people like David who previously considered them not just useless, but useless and dangerous.

Well, unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances is dangerous.

I'm not sure what is meant by "useless."  People use drugs precisely because they are not "useless."  They often work for their intended purposes: feelings of euphoria and calm.  Deadening pain and pressures felt in everyday life.  The uses of these substances are many and varied.

Is the implication here that psychedelics are useful?  With the "use" being finding communion with God?  Like the Tower of Babel?

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In the 1960s, researchers were just beginning to understand the therapeutic potential of psychedelics. But then, people and institutions freaked out. Psychedelics were blamed for Hippies, pushback against the Vietnam War and tectonic cultural shifts. The U.S. government criminalized psychedelics, which led to their banning around the world. Funding for psychedelic research dried up.

 

In the past couple decades, however, researchers have picked up where they left off. This renewed scientific interest in the drugs has been called by some in the community the third wave of psychedelics, and it continues to flow to this day.

Researchers at trusted institutions, Pollan reported, are conducting rigorous studies examining the potential medical benefits of psychedelic substances such as LSD, DMT, ayahuasca, peyote and psilocybin, the active ingredient in the so-called magic mushrooms. All the drugs are extremely powerful, and are classified federally as Schedule 1 substances, meaning it is illegal to possess or use them outside of an FDA-authorized clinical study and that they have no medical use.

"All the drugs are extremely powerful."

Yeah.  So perhaps an article seemingly celebrating and advocating for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use these powerful, mind-altering drugs is not the best idea.

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Outside of government institutions, however, recent medical studies indicate that psychedelics hold great promise for treating conditions like depression, addiction, psychological trauma, even the existential fear of terminal cancer patients.

I am open to the careful and supervised/regulated use of medicines to help people facing mental illness and other challenges.

But Mr. Urquhart apparently isn't thinking about using mind-altering substances for medical purposes, but for spiritual ones.  Read on:

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Bill Richards, a researcher at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, has been studying psychedelics for the better part of five decades, and has overseen hundreds of psychedelic trips. He holds advanced degrees in comparative religion and the psychology of religion, and while he’s excited about the potential medical uses of psychedelics, he has also witnessed their potential to illicit spiritual experiences.

“These drugs do help heal some sicknesses,” he told me. “But they also have potential for spiritual growth. Sometimes people (who have taken psychedelics) have an experience of new life, of new beginning and forgiveness and resolution of psychological difficulties that some people would call religious. It’s quite a frontier for religious study.”

"Illicit spiritual experiences."

Sounds a lot like the Tower of Babel.

"Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

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After reading Pollan’s book, David did more of his own research and decided that he wanted to know what it would feel like to be in a completely different state of consciousness.

Under the watchful eye of a psychedelic guide and in the safety of his own home, David took a large dose of magic mushrooms.

“The biggest part of that whole journey was with my head in a garbage can,” he said. His mind, however, was entirely elsewhere.

“I went off the earth,” David said. “Though space. To the end of the universe. To where it all began.”

David told me that during his psychedelic trip, he experienced the death of his parents; he felt himself grow old and die; and he said, he was reborn.

“I actually was coming through a birth canal, being born again,” he recalled. “I remember looking up at my guide and saying, ‘Are you my mother?’ And she laughed and said, ‘No.’”

"Zeal ... but not according to knowledge."  

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Reclaiming authority

Again and again during my reporting, I heard bitter complaints from those I spoke with about their former faith’s expectations and prescribed behaviors. Whether those expectations came through official church teaching and doctrine, or were exerted through social pressure within the community, this group said that they struggled to express themselves fully as faithful Latter-day Saint.

"Reclaiming authority" is an interesting phrase.  And it's fairly accurate.  From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism's article about "altars": "Today members of the Church make sacred covenants with God and consecrate their lives and all that they have been blessed with as they 'come unto Christ' and lay all things symbolically upon the altar as a sacrifice. To them a sacred altar is a tangible symbol of the presence of God, before whom they kneel with 'a broken heart and contrite spirit' (2 Ne. 2:7; 3 Ne. 11:20)."  I think the whole "put{ting} off the natural man" thing is an exercise in choosing to submit, through obedience, to the will of God.  In a sense, we consecrate our agency, our ability to choose, by covenanting with God to obey Him.  We promise to use our agency in the ways the Lord wants us to, and in so doing we become more like Him, and we accrue blessings to ourselves and others.

"Reclaiming authority," then, seems to be akin to taking all that back.  Reneging or turning from our promises to use our agency in accordance with the Lord's will, and then proceeding to make decisions irrespective of the commandments of God.  Check it out:

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“I am the authority in my life…I was taking back my personal authority," he said. "If I want to drink a cup of coffee, I don’t need to hide from anybody or sneak. I started giving myself to permission to be an adult. If you want to do it, do it! It’s my choice."

Indeed it is.  But then, it always was.

"Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

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Divine presence

In his first address as president of the LDS church in 2018, Russell M. Nelson told church members that “If we will truly receive the Holy Ghost and learn to discern and understand His promptings, we will be guided in matters large and small.” This message of seeking and receiving divine communication has been part of Mormon beliefs and rhetoric since Joseph Smith Jr. prayed to know what church to join in 1820.

Mormon history is packed with accounts of dramatic spiritual experiences – experiences that it’s current members lay claim to for themselves.

David, like many other people I spoke with, said that he had numerous spiritual experiences during his time in the church. He told me that, years ago, he attended a church meeting where his grandchildren performed a musical number. In the middle of their song, he was overcome with divine bliss.

“I felt a lot of joy,” he said. “More so than I’d ever felt in my life. I just sat there and wept.”

He wept again when, during his journey on magic mushrooms, he said he “came to know God.”

Well, I rather doubt that.

I don't think God is to be found or known through the consumption and use of powerful narcotics.  Just as He was not to be found or known by building a tower to reach heaven.

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Rachel grew up a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the Wasatch Front. When I interviewed her, she said that she frequently had mystical moments throughout her life, particularly during her LDS mission.

“So often," she remembered, "when we would teach people about Joseph Smith, about the restoration of the priesthood, about the Book of Mormon, the spirit would come into the room – [a] warm, intense feeling of divine love and presence."

Rachel believed she had a strong connection with the divine, and took her LDS faith’s call to seek and receive personal revelation seriously. But, after leaving the church, her divine experiences disappeared. She’d understood them as proof of her faith. If the faith was false, she thought, then did that mean that her spiritual experiences – the most precious and intimate experiences of her life – were false, too?

Years later, Rachel had a chance to take magic mushrooms in the mountains with a friend. During her trip, that familiar, warm, intense, divine feeling returned. She said it filled her skin, bones and muscles. She felt like she had recovered a part of who she was.

“I had left the safe harbor of Mormonism,” Rachel said. “And not just Mormonism, but also my spiritual identity. And then feeling that spiritual experience outside of the narrative that I had left behind…was just a really profound experience for me.”

I have no doubt that such "trips" are powerful.  

But I don't believe they are spiritual.  They are not the means whereby we can come to know and commune with God.  They are counterfeits of the real thing.

Ironically, for me the verisimilitude of these drug-induced "trips" ends up as something of a witness of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel.  I have had profound experiences through studying the scriptures, prayer, listening to prophets and apostles, serving others, and so on.  None of these experiences involved me introducing powerful mind-altering substances into my body, yet I had powerful experiences anyway.  

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When I started this research, I wondered if there is something about the LDS faith that prepared those who leave it for mystical psychedelic experiences. All of those I spoke with believe there is.

Rachel recalled conversations in her church and in her home about seeking and receiving guidance from God and the Holy Spirit. She heard this a lot. It is not only an accepted way of living as a Latter-day Saint – communication with the divine is expected.

“In a practiced type of way,” she said, “Mormonism – at least this is my observation – tends to have a more mystical emphasis than a lot of other American Christian religions.”

An underground psychedelic guide I spoke with, who also grew up LDS, said that one of the main reasons he and others seek out psychedelics is for spiritual fodder. In his view, “It’s no surprise that a lot of ex-Mormons have highly spiritual experiences {on psychedelics,} because, guess what: Their entire life was spirituality. So, I think that that highly influences these ex-Mormons’s trips.”

I sort of agree with this guide.  I see the Restored Gospel, and the spiritual experiences found within it, as the real deal, and drug-induced "mystical psychedelic" trips as counterfeit "spiritual experiences" sought by those who have already known the "real deal" and want to have them again, but on their own terms.  By "their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."  By building their own Tower of Babel.

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Wisdom of the tradition

Towards the end of my reporting, I spoke with Peter. A member of a prominent Mormon family here in Utah, Peter rebelled against his LDS upbringing when he was a teenager. He began drinking heavily and smoking cannabis as a means, he said, to dull his pain and anger. But he told me that when he did magic mushrooms, everything changed.

“It actually felt medicinal,” he said. “It opened windows of insight, and possibilities of healing that I had no idea were a part of taking psychedelics.”

Over the next decade, Peter strayed far from Mormonism, continuing to use psychedelics on a periodic basis. Eventually, he found his way back to the church. His psychedelic experiences helped him feel more empathy with his faith tradition, and have deepened his beliefs.

“When I took psilocybin, all of reality was imbued with a sense of the sacred,” Peter said. “I’d learned the language of the sacred in a beautiful, powerful way in my tradition growing up, so there was no dissonance for me.”

Yeesh. 

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It’s not hard to see a connection between that pioneering spirit and these psychedelic practitioners – just think of Steve Urquhart starting his own church. And although most of those I spoke with no longer belong to the LDS church, that tradition of the Mormon pioneer spirit – the enthusiasm to explore unseen territory – seems to survive in them. As Peter said, psychedelics “gave me a new way to appreciate the wisdom of the ancestors and their tradition.”

With the aid of psychedelics, the people I spoke with are exploring the unseen territory within.

Again, an article seemingly celebrating and advocating for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of powerful mind-altering drugs is not the best idea.

I'm glad I read this article.  I think it helped me better understand where these folks are coming from.  But it's also saddening because it also illuminates where they are going.  I'm reminded here of Matthew 7:

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21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I find the notion of resorting to powerful drugs in order to have "spiritual" experiences to be incorrect.  Powerful experiences, spiritual or drug-induced, will not create a path back to God.  "He that doeth the will of my Father..."

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24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Turning away from the "real deal," the Restored Gospel, and instead embracing powerful mind-altering drugs to achieve spiritual and personal enlightenment is, I think, the epitome of building a house on a sandy foundation.  It won't last.  And it won't be sanctified or ratified or protected by the Lord.  Its fall will indeed be "great."

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 26, 2021 by smac97

[rodheadlee]

When I was a child I acted like a child. Now that I'm an adult I left all that behind. It took a long time to grow up perhaps these people that were born in the church need to go through the same thing before they appreciate what they had before they lost it.

FYI I was 53 when I became an adult. 

[Meadowchik]

Spencer, regardless of the wisdom or foolishness of this new church, do you realize that you anchor your argument on the assumption that your church is true? I believe that you believe that, but there are many more who have similar beliefs about their religion, too. Many could look at you and say with equal conviction that your foundation is sandy and bound to fail, that it is one of many attempts to imitate the real deal by building another Tower of Babel. 

Personally, I do not think that experiencing joy and light in life requires this level of "my way is right and everyone else is lost" pride and confusion.

[Tacenda]

I listened to the current Radiowest with Steve, but need to finish it. https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/steve-urquhart-s-spiritual-trip

I hear it's a great method for those that have extreme PTSD or other mental conditions. I believe that in Joseph Smith's time they used it for a spiritual experience to reach the divine. 

I see nothing wrong with it and I know Steve mentioned that it was his and others' way to fill the empty hole where the spirit once was in the LDS church.  

[Calm]

15 hours ago, smac97 said:

unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances is dangerous.

Supervised, medicinal use isn’t always safe either. I had a bad reaction on a very low dose of ketamine that left me with some scars...nothing life altering because I was able to go home and hide under the covers for a couple of days and then didn’t leave the house or connect with others outside my safe zones for a few more weeks, except perhaps now I wonder if my panic...actually terror that arises when my cannabis dose gets raised in hopes of reaching a therapeutic level and I get hit with flowing thoughts I have little control over is a result of that one hour, eternal horror trip two years ago.

I have a really hard time imagining why anyone who has had a bad trip would try it again...the one sweet trip prior to the bad one was extremely fun, but never reached the point of feeling particularly meaningful.  Perhaps if it had, the risk would seem more reasonable.

Ah well, microdosing is a common approach now and maybe I can find a sweet spot that will help just enough to allow me to open other doors I can’t reach now.

I mention this because while I thought my doctor and pharmacist were very helpful in trying to pinpoint the right kind of drugs to help, they did not provide anywhere close enough to a warning or support on how to try to endure the crap while it is happening.   Psychedelics and other mind altering drugs are not magic bullets that don’t require safety lectures. 
 

I can therefore understand the appeal of wanting a community in order to get that support to help discover the most therapeutic avenue while avoiding the traps.

 And it makes sense why some turn it into a religion because how one reacts is very dependent on what one brings to it, the context. Creating rituals likely adds control and helps get the mind in a positive, open frame. The night before my bad trip I had some significant issues going on, didn’t sleep well, and distracted myself with researching the Daybell Vallow murder case. I wonder what it might have been like if instead I had been to the temple first and soothed mind and soul with the beauty, quiet, and peaceful, hopeful promises I experience there.

Some of the greatest insights I believe I have received from the Spirit had nothing to do with what is usually seen as spiritual (number one being a perfect knowledge my daughter had diabetes and what to do about it).  The enlightenment many are receiving through medical treatment using psychedelics...I am guessing given my background in the Church and training in psychology, I would label that as emotional or mental.

But if all things are spiritual as well as temporal including knowledge, then why be surprised if some label receiving new knowledge, new insights through drugs as spiritual?  And maybe God is talking to them through that door because he can’t get them to open others, whether because they choose not to or there is something impeding them such as neural chemical imbalances. But those kinds of doors are also places where one can lose control, is meant to lose control for some so one should be skeptical and confirm that the enlightenment, the knowledge is valid for one in other ways before making it become part of one’s foundation, imo. 
 

Where I see a massive problem arising is becoming dependent on drugs for spiritual experiences rather than attempting to find it as well through prayer, study including scripture study, and, very important, charitable service to others.  I have my doubts true insights, new knowledge will come through drugs without preparation. The drugs help tear apart old associations and create new ones...or so it has been described to me.  I don’t see how actual knowledge can come in such a way without prepping the ground first with ideas and experiences to create those new connections. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Spencer, regardless of the wisdom or foolishness of this new church, do you realize that you anchor your argument on the assumption that your church is true?

Actually, my argument is based on 1) the conclusion (not "assumption") that the Church is "true," which I readily admit is a statement of faith, and 2) a genuine concern about the article's celebration and advocacy of the non-medical, unsupervised, and illegal use of powerful mind-altering substances.

18 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I believe that you believe that, but there are many more who have similar beliefs about their religion, too.

Sure.

18 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Many could look at you and say with equal conviction that your foundation is sandy and bound to fail, that it is one of many attempts to imitate the real deal by building another Tower of Babel. 

My reference to a sandy foundation pertained to the illicit and unsupervised use of powerful drugs.

18 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Personally, I do not think that experiencing joy and light in life requires this level of "my way is right and everyone else is lost" pride and confusion.

Who are you quoting here?  Where did I say "my way is right and everyone else is lost" or anything like it?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

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unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances is dangerous.

Supervised, medicinal use isn’t always safe either.

I quite agree.  I worked, for a short time, at a medical malpractice law firm.  I was astounded at the damages caused by opioid abuse, often aided and abetted by medical doctors.

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I had a bad reaction on a very low dose of ketamine that left me with some scars...nothing life altering, except perhaps now I wonder if my panic...actually terror that arises when my cannabis dose gets raised in hopes of reaching a therapeutic level and I get hit with flowing thoughts I have little control over is a result of that one hour, eternal horror trip two years ago.

I have a really hard time imagining why anyone who has had a bad trip would try it again...the one sweet trip prior to the bad one was extremely fun, but never reached the point of feeling particularly meaningful.  Perhaps if it had, the risk would seem more reasonable.

Ah well, microdosing is a common approach now and maybe I can find a sweet spot that will help just enough to allow me to open other doors I can’t reach now.

I mention this because while I thought my doctor and pharmacist were very helpful in trying to pinpoint the right kind of drugs to help, they did not provide anywhere close enough to a warning or support on how to try to endure the crap while it is happening.   Psychedelics and other mind altering drugs are not magic bullets that don’t require safety lectures. 

Yes, but the article sure makes them sound fun and harmless.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Supervised, medicinal use isn’t always safe either. I had a bad reaction on a very low dose of ketamine that left me with some scars...nothing life altering, except perhaps now I wonder if my panic...actually terror that arises when my cannabis dose gets raised in hopes of reaching a therapeutic level and I get hit with flowing thoughts I have little control over is a result of that one hour, eternal horror trip two years ago.

I have a really hard time imagining why anyone who has had a bad trip would try it again...the one sweet trip prior to the bad one was extremely fun, but never reached the point of feeling particularly meaningful.  Perhaps if it had, the risk would seem more reasonable.

Ah well, microdosing is a common approach now and maybe I can find a sweet spot that will help just enough to allow me to open other doors I can’t reach now.

I mention this because while I thought my doctor and pharmacist were very helpful in trying to pinpoint the right kind of drugs to help, they did not provide anywhere close enough to a warning or support on how to try to endure the crap while it is happening.   Psychedelics and other mind altering drugs are not magic bullets that don’t require safety lectures. 

I can almost guarantee a bad trip for myself. The paranoia factor for me is very extreme. I'm almost positive that my lack of imagination and creativity would put me in a spot of doom and gloom. I know I sound very self deprecating but it's kind of true. I'm very boring, haha.

[The Nehor]

I agree that psychedelics are unlikely to have spiritual but I am open to them having psychological value. I know people who have broken out of mental and psychological traps due to their use.

On the other hand the Bible (and the Book of Mormon?) refer to sorcery which probably has its basis more in the use of drugs and/or poisons to seek an altered state rather than the magic that jumps straight to our minds.

I think the altered mental states psychedelics can lead to have curative value but I am less convinced drugs are a prerequisite to reaching them. I have had meditation give me a very "trippy" "vision". I am not convinced it was spiritual in nature (no Holy Ghost 'tells') but I did learn a lot about myself by seeming to be outside myself. It is also worth noting that the visions that have been given by the Holy Ghost are much better and much more fun though also frightening in their own way.

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, smac97 said:

This KUER article has given me something to ponder: Why Are A Growing Number of Ex-Mormons Using Psychedelics?

Psychedelic mushrooms and marijuana.  Seems like these are something like a new iteration of the "Tower of Babel."  Consider this description in the 2018 Ensign:

Mind-altering substances seem to be like the tower.  An attempt to find something of the divine, to "reach unto heaven" and man-made.  A "counterfeit."  Using materials and means other than what God has authorized.  An attempt to "bind or seal the people together somehow so they would not be scattered, and 'make {them} a name' rather than take the Lord’s name upon them," but "without authority from God and without regard to His commandments."  An attempt to supplant what they found in the Restored Gospel with an artifice of their own making, and one that that will, in the end, necessarily fail.

Back to the first article:

Well, Romans 10 comes to mind:

I think Urquhart is attempting to replace Jesus Christ, as discerned and accepted through the Spirit, with magic mushrooms and dope.  

We are, I think, inherently "tribal."  We want to be a part of a community.  The Latter-day Saint "community" is not in full flower, not yet a full realization of the "Zion" the Lord wants it to be.  But we have made some significant progress.  There is a real feeling of unity and common purpose that can arise through regular worship together, serving together, serving each other, serving those outside our community, and so on .  We seek and find communion with God through common prayer, scripture study, sacred ordinances, temple work, family history, missionary work, fulfilling callings, etc.  These efforts, in my experience, bring the Spirit into our lives, and create cohesion and strength, and a willigness to continue and endure, to strengthen ourselves and others, to build up our community even more.  Using the ways and means the Lord has given us.  And eventually, over time and generations, I believe we will get to where we need to be.  "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."  (Proverbs 4:18.)

For all the grousing and carping I see in online commentary about the Church and its members, there seems to be a real sense of loss felt by those who leave (as the above article seems to explore).  The loss of sense of community is real.  And per this article that loss is about much more than just ward activities, or helping someone move, or dropping off cookies of zucchini on someone's doorstep.  The spiritual experiences found by being in the community are, I think, also real.  And those experiences are lost when our brothers and sisters leave our community.  Some seem okay with that, and become satisfied with being entertained by the contrivances and technologies that our modern society has to allow us to pass the time: music, movies, TV, YouTube, social media (now streaming 24/7).  Food.  Pornography or other forms of sexual exploration/experimentation.   However, it looks like others want to re-create the "community" they have left, but on their own terms.  So some sort of community seems to be coalescing, but one that is but a pale imitation of the real thing.  Facebook instead of church buildings.  Meeting together to "partake" of a profane perversion of the Sacrament, magic mushrooms and marijuana, in order to experience a counterfeit of the Spirit.

"{S}eekers who find in psychedelics access to healing, personal discovery and even mystical, spiritual states of consciousness that harken back to their Mormon tradition" sounds a lot like "Zeal ... but not according to knowledge."  "Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

I can appreciate, to some extent, the sense of "chaf{ing}" here.  But I generally attribute that more to the "natural man" in me "chafing" against what the Lord wants me to do.  There is also "chafing" in functioning as a member of the Latter-day Saint community.  But that can be said for every community.  Our community has higher-than-average amounts of expectations and requirements, some of which are good (weekly attendance at church, temple attendance, fulfilling callings, paying tithes, service to others, Law of Chastity, Word of Wisdom, etc.), and some that are incidental and unfortunate and unintended side effects (keeping up with the joneses, pride, mistreatment or neglect of "others," etc.).  So we have some work still to do.

And yet for all the drawbacks of joining a community, for all the risks of "chafing" against community rules and expectations, most of us gravitate toward community anyway.

Well, unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of mind-altering substances is dangerous.

I'm not sure what is meant by "useless."  People use drugs precisely because they are not "useless."  They often work for their intended purposes: feelings of euphoria and calm.  Deadening pain and pressures felt in everyday life.  The uses of these substances are many and varied.

Is the implication here that psychedelics are useful?  With the "use" being finding communion with God?  Like the Tower of Babel?

"All the drugs are extremely powerful."

Yeah.  So perhaps an article seemingly celebrating and advocating for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use these powerful, mind-altering drugs is not the best idea.

I am open to the careful and supervised/regulated use of medicines to help people facing mental illness and other challenges.

But Mr. Urquhart apparently isn't thinking about using mind-altering substances for medical purposes, but for spiritual ones.  Read on:

"Illicit spiritual experiences."

Sounds a lot like the Tower of Babel.

"Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

"Zeal ... but not according to knowledge."  

"Reclaiming authority" is an interesting phrase.  And it's fairly accurate.  From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism's article about "altars": "Today members of the Church make sacred covenants with God and consecrate their lives and all that they have been blessed with as they 'come unto Christ' and lay all things symbolically upon the altar as a sacrifice. To them a sacred altar is a tangible symbol of the presence of God, before whom they kneel with 'a broken heart and contrite spirit' (2 Ne. 2:7; 3 Ne. 11:20)."  I think the whole "put{ting} off the natural man" thing is an exercise in choosing to submit, through obedience, to the will of God.  In a sense, we consecrate our agency, our ability to choose, by covenanting with God to obey Him.  We promise to use our agency in the ways the Lord wants us to, and in so doing we become more like Him, and we accrue blessings to ourselves and others.

"Reclaiming authority," then, seems to be akin to taking all that back.  Reneging or turning from our promises to use our agency in accordance with the Lord's will, and then proceeding to make decisions irrespective of the commandments of God.  Check it out:

Indeed it is.  But then, it always was.

"Going about to establish their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Well, I rather doubt that.

I don't think God is to be found or known through the consumption and use of powerful narcotics.  Just as He was not to be found or known by building a tower to reach heaven.

I have no doubt that such "trips" are powerful.  

But I don't believe they are spiritual.  They are not the means whereby we can come to know and commune with God.  They are counterfeits of the real thing.

Ironically, for me the verisimilitude of these drug-induced "trips" ends up as something of a witness of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel.  I have had profound experiences through studying the scriptures, prayer, listening to prophets and apostles, serving others, and so on.  None of these experiences involved me introducing powerful mind-altering substances into my body, yet I had powerful experiences anyway.  

I sort of agree with this guide.  I see the Restored Gospel, and the spiritual experiences found within it, as the real deal, and drug-induced "mystical psychedelic" trips as counterfeit "spiritual experiences" sought by those who have already known the "real deal" and want to have them again, but on their own terms.  By "their own righteousness, hav{ing} not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."  By building their own Tower of Babel.

Yeesh. 

Again, an article seemingly celebrating and advocating for the unsupervised, non-medicinal, recreational use of powerful mind-altering drugs is not the best idea.

I'm glad I read this article.  I think it helped me better understand where these folks are coming from.  But it's also saddening because it also illuminates where they are going.  I'm reminded here of Matthew 7:

I find the notion of resorting to powerful drugs in order to have "spiritual" experiences to be incorrect.  Powerful experiences, spiritual or drug-induced, will not create a path back to God.  "He that doeth the will of my Father..."

Turning away from the "real deal," the Restored Gospel, and instead embracing powerful mind-altering drugs to achieve spiritual and personal enlightenment is, I think, the epitome of building a house on a sandy foundation.  It won't last.  And it won't be sanctified or ratified or protected by the Lord.  Its fall will indeed be "great."

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

It's not the whole issue, but some of this just seems like teenage rebelliousness wrapped up in a mid-life crisis that took so long to show up because earlier religious beliefs kept them from experimenting.  

[Meadowchik]

31 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Actually, my argument is based on 1) the conclusion (not "assumption") that the Church is "true," which I readily admit is a statement of faith, and 2) a genuine concern about the article's celebration and advocacy of the non-medical, unsupervised, and illegal use of powerful mind-altering substances.

Sure.

My reference to a sandy foundation pertained to the illicit and unsupervised use of powerful drugs.

Who are you quoting here?  Where did I say "my way is right and everyone else is lost" or anything like it?

Thanks,

-Smac

Those quote marks represent the one-true-church/way mentality. You use a one-true-church premise in your argument which is unnecessary but also imo less effective.

[poptart]

I have friends who are members.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Church

[smac97]

38 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Those quote marks represent the one-true-church/way mentality.

I suspected that.  I reject your characterizaton.  Specifically the "and everyone else is lost" bit.

Quote

You use a one-true-church premise in your argument which is unnecessary but also imo less effective.

The one-true-church premise does not require a corollary and-everyone-else-is-lost premise.  Far from it, in fact.

"And also it is an imperative duty that we owe to all the rising generation, and to all the pure in heart.  For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it.  Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven.  These should then be attended to with great earnestness."  (D&C 123:11-14).

I do not believe the Church is the sole receptacle of light and knowledge from God.  I recognize there is much truth and goodness outside of the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 26, 2021 by smac97

[Meadowchik]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I suspected that.  I reject your characterizaton.  Specifically the "and everyone else is lost" bit.

The one-true-church premise does not require a corollary and-everyone-else-is-lost premise.  Far from it, in fact.

"And also it is an imperative duty that we owe to all the rising generation, and to all the pure in heart.  For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it.  Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven.  These should then be attended to with great earnestness."  (D&C 123:11-14).

I do not believe the Church is the sole receptacle of light and knowledge from God.  I recognize there is much truth and goodness outside of the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well that isn't really evident in the way you criticize others in your OP. It emphasizes their distance from the church as an indication of how they're problematic, rather than focusing on what might actually be problematic. A spiritually-universalist viewpoint would not use distance from the church to indicate a wrong turn. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Meadowchik

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I can almost guarantee a bad trip for myself. The paranoia factor for me is very extreme. I'm almost positive that my lack of imagination and creativity would put me in a spot of doom and gloom. I know I sound very self deprecating but it's kind of true. I'm very boring, haha.

Given the experience, I think it is wise for you to be cautious.   Too often this stuff is presented as overcoming negative feelings when what it does is for many apparently is intensify what one is currently feeling.  

Edited February 26, 2021 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Well that isn't really evident in the way you criticize others in your OP. It emphasizes their distance from the church as an indication of how they're problematic, rather than focusing on what might actually be problematic. A spiritually-universalist viewpoint would not use distance from the church to indicate a wrong turn. 

I'm grateful they are able to explore the divine, which to many is such a help when feeling like this is it. 

[poptart]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I agree that psychedelics are unlikely to have spiritual but I am open to them having psychological value. I know people who have broken out of mental and psychological traps due to their use.

On the other hand the Bible (and the Book of Mormon?) refer to sorcery which probably has its basis more in the use of drugs and/or poisons to seek an altered state rather than the magic that jumps straight to our minds.

I think the altered mental states psychedelics can lead to have curative value but I am less convinced drugs are a prerequisite to reaching them. I have had meditation give me a very "trippy" "vision". I am not convinced it was spiritual in nature (no Holy Ghost 'tells') but I did learn a lot about myself by seeming to be outside myself. It is also worth noting that the visions that have been given by the Holy Ghost are much better and much more fun though also frightening in their own way.

The Buddha did say everyone should have a psychadelic experience at least once in their lives, supposedly the "soma" referred to in ancient texts is likely a psychedelic.  

Soma (drink) - Wikipedia

I know therapists who've sworn by it, it's done wonders for vets with PTSD.  Ancient cultures have used it for a very, very long time, even here.  I'm advocating nothing, still i try to keep an open mind about these things.  Then again, i'm a cultural Christian at best unlike most here.  At my core, I am still very, very pagan.  Esoteric/Hermetic teachings tend to be my go to.  Will say, from what i've heard from some of the research in my state as well as vets who are medicine bag holders as well as members of the Native American Church, it sure worked for them especially after they came back from Iraq/Vietnam and were treated like total garbage by people here. 

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Quote

I do not believe the Church is the sole receptacle of light and knowledge from God.  I recognize there is much truth and goodness outside of the Church.

Well that isn't really evident in the way you criticize others in your OP.

I think it is.  In any event, now that I have clarified things, my position should be evident to you now, right?

Also, I think those who leave the Church have erred, but I respect their right to do so.  I acknowledge that this is a judgment call.

Quote

It emphasizes their distance from the church as an indication of how they're problematic, rather than focusing on what might actually be problematic.

I spoke at length about the problem of advocating or celebrating the illicit and non-medically-supervised use of powerful illegal drugs.  That use can be very problematic.

Quote

A spiritually-universalist viewpoint would not use distance from the church to indicate a wrong turn. 

I don't advocate "{a} spiritually-universalist viewpoint."

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 26, 2021 by smac97

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think it is.  In any event, now that I have clarified things, my position should be evident to you now, right?

Also, I think those who leave the Church have erred, but I respect their right to do so.  I acknowledge that this is a judgment call.

I spoke at length about the problems with the problems of illicit and non-medically-supervised use of illegal drugs.  That use can be very problematic.

I don't advocate "{a} spiritually-universalist viewpoint."

Thanks,

-Smac

Sorry, no, I don't see a clear position here that I would want to believe is yours, because the position I do see lacks charity, and I believe you are a charitable person.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Meadowchik

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Quote

I think it is.  In any event, now that I have clarified things, my position should be evident to you now, right?

Also, I think those who leave the Church have erred, but I respect their right to do so.  I acknowledge that this is a judgment call.

I spoke at length about the problems with the problems of illicit and non-medically-supervised use of illegal drugs.  That use can be very problematic.

I don't advocate "{a} spiritually-universalist viewpoint."

Sorry, no, I don't see a clear position here that I would want to believe is yours, because the position I do see lacks charity, and I believe you are a charitable person.

Allow me to clarify: I have charity for people who leave the Church.  This includes people who, after having left, turn to the illicit and non-medically-supervised use of powerful mind-altering drugs.

Disagreement is not equivalent to a lack of charity.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 26, 2021 by smac97

[Meadowchik]

44 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Allow me to clarify: I have charity for people who leave the Church.  This includes people who, after having left, turn to the illicit and non-medically-supervised use of powerful mind-altering drugs.

Disagreement is not equivalent to a lack of charity.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'm not saying your disagreement makes your position seem uncharitable. 

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm not saying your disagreement makes your position seem uncharitable. 

As you like.  You are imputing onto me a lack of charity.  I am rejecting that accusation.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As you like.  You are imputing onto me a lack of charity.  I am rejecting that accusation.

Thanks,

-Smac

Nope. I am saying your OP lacks charity and explicitly said I believe you don't.

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't think God is to be found or known through the consumption and use of powerful narcotics.  Just as He was not to be found or known by building a tower to reach heaven.

God can be found in some of the worst, if not the worst, of human conditions and experiences.  I've been through Hell at times in my life and it all helped in my quest to find God and what/how he really wanted me to be.

So rather than approach drug use as a means that won't or can't work to help commune with God, I approach it as something I should not need to use and should not be dependent on. otherwise I would need drugs to do it. 

Free and natural is just a lot better.

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have no doubt that such "trips" are powerful.  

But I don't believe they are spiritual.  They are not the means whereby we can come to know and commune with God.  They are counterfeits of the real thing.

I think of us as spirits experiencing a mortal condition, rather than mortals who sometimes do spiritual things.  Everything we do as spirits is spiritual.  If you are only talking about good stuff, then I think you should use the word good.

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

I find the notion of resorting to powerful drugs in order to have "spiritual" experiences to be incorrect.  Powerful experiences, spiritual or drug-induced, will not create a path back to God.  "He that doeth the will of my Father..."

And your point is that our Father does not use drugs?  My response to that is that he doesn't need to to be how he is.  And that is the point I think is important.  We don't need drugs to know how he is or how we should be.

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Turning away from the "real deal," the Restored Gospel, and instead embracing powerful mind-altering drugs to achieve spiritual and personal enlightenment is, I think, the epitome of building a house on a sandy foundation.  It won't last.  And it won't be sanctified or ratified or protected by the Lord.  Its fall will indeed be "great."

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

My end note on this issue:  Using drugs to commune with God will work only if the drugs are good enough to help with that and only when you can get the drugs to do it. 

And drugs are expensive.  Have you seen the price of cigarettes lately?  And cigarettes don't really help very much.

[strappinglad]

These folks could be described as " stoners " , but I am quite sure that was not what Jesus referred to when He said , " upon this rock ..."