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6 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

The restriction was because of the draft obviously. Funny thing is the past 20 yrs we have been in a war but I guarantee you  most mission aged males wont be given a pass if they go military instead of a mission right now or even just after 9/11. Im sure it happens and I know only one who entered the military in any ward I have been in and it was right in the middle of the iraq/Afghanistan thing. Lets just say the buzz around the ward was not kind to him and it was pretty open. It is not an acceptable alternative to mission service. I think the only time it is is if there is a draft. 

I’ve had a half dozen of my former early morning seminary students enter the military.  I’ve never heard a negative word from anyone regarding their decisions.  What I have heard are many heartfelt expressions of gratitude expressed to them when they visited the Ward while on leave.

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12 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

The restriction was because of the draft obviously. Funny thing is the past 20 yrs we have been in a war but I guarantee you  most mission aged males wont be given a pass if they go military instead of a mission right now or even just after 9/11. Im sure it happens and I know only one who entered the military in any ward I have been in and it was right in the middle of the iraq/Afghanistan thing. Lets just say the buzz around the ward was not kind to him and it was pretty open. It is not an acceptable alternative to mission service. I think the only time it is is if there is a draft. 

Military are pretty honored in my ward and neighbourhood and no one really cares if they went on a mission before service or not. But that may be because we have a few more members in the military than others (I don’t know...guessing). The town has parades when people come home from duty. 

Edited by Calm
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9 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Yep. I didn’t go and thirty plus years later I still get the semi-annual reminder of what a disappointment I am to the family. I was offered a car and college to be paid for if I did the mission. I refused and went in the military instead. Now I find out all these yrs later they have been paying for my sibling kids’ missions but not my kids. Oh well I’m sure that’s part of the pay pack for the eternal disappointment. That’s better than getting locked out of the house when I was 19 I guess. The army treated me very well. 

I'm sorry for the way your family treated you.  Although my brother and his first wife (who passed on, just to clarify) are as faithful as they come, their son and my nephew chose to not serve a mission.  He's happily married now.  As much as I might have wished that he served a mission, that would have to be his decision.  I don't love him any less, and would never dream of treating him any differently because of that.  Thank you for your service, Sir.

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7 hours ago, ttribe said:

Uh, no.  You don't 'deserve' to be treated unfairly year after year simply because you chose to not serve a mission when you were 19.

Something something about no success can compensate for failure in the home... where have we heard that before?

If you are well-connected mormon family both sides going back all the way to one of the first converts in the church, polygamy all the men HP, Bishops, Patriarchs bla bla bla...yea your kid not going on a mission is an indication you failed as a parent and you will be judged. 

Imagine 20 yrs later you (the non RM)  are in the temple and the old senile guy reads your rec and says "oh are you so and so's son?" Yes I am. "Oh nice to meet you- howd your brother who went in the military do?" Uhh thats me. "Oh ok, Thanks for visiting the temple today." Yea everyone knows my family. Ha and yes true story.

So there you have it- just the way it is. I knew that stuff would happen because I saw it all the time growing up. When your fam is connected enough that traveling apostles would stay the night at your house on occasion well its just a different church than most everyone else belongs to and in my opinion way overrated. 

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10 hours ago, bluebell said:

On my mission we had a bright metallic purple Nissan Sentra. We called it Barney. 

image.jpeg.ccfc460a5090762a1ef13efe58716e5c.jpeg

"I love you!" ;):D :friends: 

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42 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’ve had a half dozen of my former early morning seminary students enter the military.  I’ve never heard a negative word from anyone regarding their decisions.  What I have heard are many heartfelt expressions of gratitude expressed to them when they visited the Ward while on leave.

I wish I had been in that ward. My bishop was such a jerk about it he had me in his office for a ppi every two weeks until I changed my mind and decided to go on a mission. I enlisted six months before I left so about a dozen times in his office on sun getting lectured on my sins. I told my parents about it and they said well go on a mission and he will leave you alone. 
 

You know there is a test of whether or not it is acceptable to go military instead of a mission. That test is if your bishop takes the pulpit and declares missions just as worthy an endeavor as a mission so boys take your pick.
 

He would be released that night or at best by the end of the week. 
 

 

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49 minutes ago, Calm said:

Military are pretty honored in my ward and neighbourhood and no one really cares if they went on a mission before service or not. But that may be because we have a few more members in the military than others (I don’t know...guessing). The town has parades when people come home from duty. 

Yea parades are not a thing here. There is no military other than some national guard and reserves. We have one guy in my ward who is full time guard but he did the mission, byu, rotc officer thing so you know that was the right way and hence the honorable way. We have so many active duty military people in our stake they have to say “zero active military” after they give the missionary numbers in the Sunday morning session. I was one of two my stake had in a decade when it was me. 

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55 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’ve had a half dozen of my former early morning seminary students enter the military.  I’ve never heard a negative word from anyone regarding their decisions.  What I have heard are many heartfelt expressions of gratitude expressed to them when they visited the Ward while on leave.

I ditto the above. Our local wards were populated by quite a number of Marine and Navy families, and any man or woman who joined the service after HS was considered a 'worthy' member in the eyes of the ward members.

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12 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That’s what adjustable seats and handlebars are for. 

My husband is 6'6".  Adjustable seats and handlebars can be a bandaid, but they just don't make it a good bike for him and others we know who are 6"8-6'10".  

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3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Toxic culture? To be honest, I don't really know. I think the following anecdotes may help explain:

During my first week, I was summoned to an interview with my branch president. He told me that the Holy Ghost had told him that I was hiding serious sins that I hadn't repented of, and he was giving me the opportunity to come clean. I was stunned and assured him that was not the case. He wouldn't accept my assurance, so he spent the rent of our 'interview' trying to stare me down and intimidate me. Finally, he let me go, but then I was back in his office for a repeat at least two more times. To this day, I don't know if this was some shtick he tried on all the missionaries in his branch (I never thought to mention this to anyone else at the time!) or if he still hadn't learnt to discern the genuine voice of the Spirit. In either case, it was dark and creepy. The only thing I could relate it to was one of those old WWII movies where the gestapo tries to force a confession. It left me feeling yucky, and it still does. I've had that kind of experience with no other priesthood leader.

One morning the queue for breakfast was especially long and slow, so despite having arrived at the canteen exactly on time, we only got our trays of food five minutes before class was to start. The other Elders in my district all suggested that we just throw the food away so that we wouldn't be late to class. I had been raised that the sin next to murder was wasting food, and my previous experiences in the Church had all been characterised by reasonableness, so I suggested we just eat super quickly whilst standing up and then hurry to class. As a result, we were late by about three minutes. Our teacher then spent the next 20 minutes berating us for our 'disobedience', telling us that we had wasted the 'Lord's time' and that we would never amount to anything as missionaries. I found the whole thing bizarre and over the top, and I still do, but he was like that all the time. At the same time, he would happily spend 10 minutes of class time giving interested Elders sports score updates from the night or weekend before.

One of the essential elements of my personal conversion had been learning the difference between things spiritual and things theatrical, so I often struggled through 'large group meetings', which were scripted, rehearsed mini-performances by what I always assumed were BYU theatre students, but I never said anything and politely listened/took notes. During one, our district leader decided to move the swing-up desk attached to his chair in the lecture theatre, and this made a very funny sound. Our row and the rows both in front and behind us spontaneously laughed. One of the sanctimonious BYU students on stage took the microphone, stopped the performance, and called us out. He told us that we had driven the Spirit out of the theatre and invited us to consider our sins. He was visibly and audibly angry, and that was the moment when the Spirit left.

The MTC president sounded like a televangelist, and to be honest, that's how he made me feel, too.

On more than one occasion, I was told by MTC leaders/workers that if I didn't look on women with lust, I wasn't a 'real man'.

I fell sick with an infection during my time at the MTC. The doctor at the clinic told me I needed rest to get better. I was told by others that I was just lazy, so I kept going. As a result, I was still sick when I left the MTC and began serving in my first area.

I certainly hope so! I haven't really heard any other missionaries share the same complaints about the MTC. I have, however, heard a few others.

I can see why you didn't like the MTC.  So very different than my experiences.  I'm sorry.

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2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm sorry for the way your family treated you.  Although my brother and his first wife (who passed on, just to clarify) are as faithful as they come, their son and my nephew chose to not serve a mission.  He's happily married now.  As much as I might have wished that he served a mission, that would have to be his decision.  I don't love him any less, and would never dream of treating him any differently because of that.  Thank you for your service, Sir.

It’s all good thanks I appreciate it. Like I said I knew what I was doing just goes with the territory.

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12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Toxic culture? To be honest, I don't really know. I think the following anecdotes may help explain:

During my first week, I was summoned to an interview with my branch president. He told me that the Holy Ghost had told him that I was hiding serious sins that I hadn't repented of, and he was giving me the opportunity to come clean. I was stunned and assured him that was not the case. He wouldn't accept my assurance, so he spent the rent of our 'interview' trying to stare me down and intimidate me. Finally, he let me go, but then I was back in his office for a repeat at least two more times. To this day, I don't know if this was some shtick he tried on all the missionaries in his branch (I never thought to mention this to anyone else at the time!) or if he still hadn't learnt to discern the genuine voice of the Spirit. In either case, it was dark and creepy. The only thing I could relate it to was one of those old WWII movies where the gestapo tries to force a confession. It left me feeling yucky, and it still does. I've had that kind of experience with no other priesthood leader.

One morning the queue for breakfast was especially long and slow, so despite having arrived at the canteen exactly on time, we only got our trays of food five minutes before class was to start. The other Elders in my district all suggested that we just throw the food away so that we wouldn't be late to class. I had been raised that the sin next to murder was wasting food, and my previous experiences in the Church had all been characterised by reasonableness, so I suggested we just eat super quickly whilst standing up and then hurry to class. As a result, we were late by about three minutes. Our teacher then spent the next 20 minutes berating us for our 'disobedience', telling us that we had wasted the 'Lord's time' and that we would never amount to anything as missionaries. I found the whole thing bizarre and over the top, and I still do, but he was like that all the time. At the same time, he would happily spend 10 minutes of class time giving interested Elders sports score updates from the night or weekend before.

One of the essential elements of my personal conversion had been learning the difference between things spiritual and things theatrical, so I often struggled through 'large group meetings', which were scripted, rehearsed mini-performances by what I always assumed were BYU theatre students, but I never said anything and politely listened/took notes. During one, our district leader decided to move the swing-up desk attached to his chair in the lecture theatre, and this made a very funny sound. Our row and the rows both in front and behind us spontaneously laughed. One of the sanctimonious BYU students on stage took the microphone, stopped the performance, and called us out. He told us that we had driven the Spirit out of the theatre and invited us to consider our sins. He was visibly and audibly angry, and that was the moment when the Spirit left.

The MTC president sounded like a televangelist, and to be honest, that's how he made me feel, too.

On more than one occasion, I was told by MTC leaders/workers that if I didn't look on women with lust, I wasn't a 'real man'.

I fell sick with an infection during my time at the MTC. The doctor at the clinic told me I needed rest to get better. I was told by others that I was just lazy, so I kept going. As a result, I was still sick when I left the MTC and began serving in my first area.

I certainly hope so! I haven't really heard any other missionaries share the same complaints about the MTC. I have, however, heard a few others.

Yeah, that does not sound fun.

I had one meeting that felt close to that for me.  The sister leaders had all the sister missionaries go to a meeting where they talked about our clothes, how they were too fashionable or not following the guidelines, and we should know better, etc.  It was a horrible meeting, especially because I knew some of my clothes were probably not acceptable.  Not because I was flouting the guidelines but because I had followed the guidelines my mission president had sent out in his separate welcome package, and he was very lenient.  He allowed jean skirts for example, and knee high nylons instead of panty hose.  He didn't care if our skirts and dresses were ankle length (which was a trendy length at the time and so the MTC leaders said our dresses and skirts were to be calf length so we wouldn't be trendy.  Not sure why that mattered).

And once at the MTC I certainly didn't have any way to change the wardrobe I had brought with me, neither did my parents have the money to send me a new one.  I am a rule follower by nature and so being stuck somewhere unable to change it, knowing someone was looking down on me because I wasn't following the rules, was a bit traumatic. 

But I decided that it was what it was and I wasn't going to worry about it.

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12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Toxic culture? To be honest, I don't really know. I think the following anecdotes may help explain:

During my first week, I was summoned to an interview with my branch president. He told me that the Holy Ghost had told him that I was hiding serious sins that I hadn't repented of, and he was giving me the opportunity to come clean. I was stunned and assured him that was not the case. He wouldn't accept my assurance, so he spent the rent of our 'interview' trying to stare me down and intimidate me. Finally, he let me go, but then I was back in his office for a repeat at least two more times. To this day, I don't know if this was some shtick he tried on all the missionaries in his branch (I never thought to mention this to anyone else at the time!) or if he still hadn't learnt to discern the genuine voice of the Spirit. In either case, it was dark and creepy. The only thing I could relate it to was one of those old WWII movies where the gestapo tries to force a confession. It left me feeling yucky, and it still does. I've had that kind of experience with no other priesthood leader.

One morning the queue for breakfast was especially long and slow, so despite having arrived at the canteen exactly on time, we only got our trays of food five minutes before class was to start. The other Elders in my district all suggested that we just throw the food away so that we wouldn't be late to class. I had been raised that the sin next to murder was wasting food, and my previous experiences in the Church had all been characterised by reasonableness, so I suggested we just eat super quickly whilst standing up and then hurry to class. As a result, we were late by about three minutes. Our teacher then spent the next 20 minutes berating us for our 'disobedience', telling us that we had wasted the 'Lord's time' and that we would never amount to anything as missionaries. I found the whole thing bizarre and over the top, and I still do, but he was like that all the time. At the same time, he would happily spend 10 minutes of class time giving interested Elders sports score updates from the night or weekend before.

One of the essential elements of my personal conversion had been learning the difference between things spiritual and things theatrical, so I often struggled through 'large group meetings', which were scripted, rehearsed mini-performances by what I always assumed were BYU theatre students, but I never said anything and politely listened/took notes. During one, our district leader decided to move the swing-up desk attached to his chair in the lecture theatre, and this made a very funny sound. Our row and the rows both in front and behind us spontaneously laughed. One of the sanctimonious BYU students on stage took the microphone, stopped the performance, and called us out. He told us that we had driven the Spirit out of the theatre and invited us to consider our sins. He was visibly and audibly angry, and that was the moment when the Spirit left.

The MTC president sounded like a televangelist, and to be honest, that's how he made me feel, too.

On more than one occasion, I was told by MTC leaders/workers that if I didn't look on women with lust, I wasn't a 'real man'.

I fell sick with an infection during my time at the MTC. The doctor at the clinic told me I needed rest to get better. I was told by others that I was just lazy, so I kept going. As a result, I was still sick when I left the MTC and began serving in my first area.

I certainly hope so! I haven't really heard any other missionaries share the same complaints about the MTC. I have, however, heard a few others.

That sounds eerily similar to my MTC experience. 

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25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I had been raised that the sin next to murder was wasting food, and my previous experiences in the Church had all been characterised by reasonableness, so I suggested we just eat super quickly whilst standing up and then hurry to class. As a result, we were late by about three minutes. Our teacher then spent the next 20 minutes berating us for our 'disobedience', telling us that we had wasted the 'Lord's time' and that we would never amount to anything as missionaries. I found the whole thing bizarre and over the top, and I still do, but he was like that all the time. At the same time, he would happily spend 10 minutes of class time giving interested Elders sports score updates from the night or weekend before.

I often lament we don't have better idiot protection in the Church. I'm not saying twitwits shouldn't have callings but that ongoing twitwittery (esp when harmful) ought to signal and get meaningful guidance from leadership. Over the decades I've seen no evidence that this ever happens.

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On 5/27/2021 at 8:32 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Toxic culture? To be honest, I don't really know. I think the following anecdotes may help explain:

During my first week, I was summoned to an interview with my branch president. He told me that the Holy Ghost had told him that I was hiding serious sins that I hadn't repented of, and he was giving me the opportunity to come clean. I was stunned and assured him that was not the case. He wouldn't accept my assurance, so he spent the rent of our 'interview' trying to stare me down and intimidate me. Finally, he let me go, but then I was back in his office for a repeat at least two more times. To this day, I don't know if this was some shtick he tried on all the missionaries in his branch (I never thought to mention this to anyone else at the time!) or if he still hadn't learnt to discern the genuine voice of the Spirit. In either case, it was dark and creepy. The only thing I could relate it to was one of those old WWII movies where the gestapo tries to force a confession. It left me feeling yucky, and it still does. I've had that kind of experience with no other priesthood leader.

One morning the queue for breakfast was especially long and slow, so despite having arrived at the canteen exactly on time, we only got our trays of food five minutes before class was to start. The other Elders in my district all suggested that we just throw the food away so that we wouldn't be late to class. I had been raised that the sin next to murder was wasting food, and my previous experiences in the Church had all been characterised by reasonableness, so I suggested we just eat super quickly whilst standing up and then hurry to class. As a result, we were late by about three minutes. Our teacher then spent the next 20 minutes berating us for our 'disobedience', telling us that we had wasted the 'Lord's time' and that we would never amount to anything as missionaries. I found the whole thing bizarre and over the top, and I still do, but he was like that all the time. At the same time, he would happily spend 10 minutes of class time giving interested Elders sports score updates from the night or weekend before.

One of the essential elements of my personal conversion had been learning the difference between things spiritual and things theatrical, so I often struggled through 'large group meetings', which were scripted, rehearsed mini-performances by what I always assumed were BYU theatre students, but I never said anything and politely listened/took notes. During one, our district leader decided to move the swing-up desk attached to his chair in the lecture theatre, and this made a very funny sound. Our row and the rows both in front and behind us spontaneously laughed. One of the sanctimonious BYU students on stage took the microphone, stopped the performance, and called us out. He told us that we had driven the Spirit out of the theatre and invited us to consider our sins. He was visibly and audibly angry, and that was the moment when the Spirit left.

The MTC president sounded like a televangelist, and to be honest, that's how he made me feel, too.

On more than one occasion, I was told by MTC leaders/workers that if I didn't look on women with lust, I wasn't a 'real man'.

I fell sick with an infection during my time at the MTC. The doctor at the clinic told me I needed rest to get better. I was told by others that I was just lazy, so I kept going. As a result, I was still sick when I left the MTC and began serving in my first area.

I certainly hope so! I haven't really heard any other missionaries share the same complaints about the MTC. I have, however, heard a few others.

Unrighteous dominion, then. 
 

Joseph Smith said it is in the nature and disposition of “almost all men.”  I would add that it afflicts some women as well. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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"twitwittery", Chum, is a wonderful term. It applied to my experiences in high school, college, the military, corporate business, and particularly in higher education. Education professionals must have a secret course of Twitwittery 101 that I never discovered.

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For the current time if you want to be able to be in the Provo MTC you will need to have been fully covid vaccinated.  I would assume other MTCs are this way as well.  If not vaccinated you will be home MTC.

Info from a friend of a church employee so again take it for what it is worth:  all MTC's are planning to be opened by September.  They will have a new curriculum - 2 weeks at home on doctrine and then 4-7 weeks at the MTC learning the language.  Don't know what is supposed to happen if you are teaching in your native language.  

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On 5/27/2021 at 10:07 PM, secondclasscitizen said:

I wish I had been in that ward. My bishop was such a jerk about it he had me in his office for a ppi every two weeks until I changed my mind and decided to go on a mission. I enlisted six months before I left so about a dozen times in his office on sun getting lectured on my sins. I told my parents about it and they said well go on a mission and he will leave you alone. 
 

You know there is a test of whether or not it is acceptable to go military instead of a mission. That test is if your bishop takes the pulpit and declares missions just as worthy an endeavor as a mission so boys take your pick.
 

He would be released that night or at best by the end of the week. 
 

 

Sounds like what my son was put through, after one of the many calls in to speak with the bishop, he came home and put a fist through the wall and cried. Sorry for the trauma he and you experienced.

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6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My boy opened his call Tuesday. He’s going to Argentina Cordoba. The letter said virtual MTC. 

¡Felicidades, che!

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Sounds like what my son was put through, after one of the many calls in to speak with the bishop, he came home and put a fist through the wall and cried. Sorry for the trauma he and you experienced.

Thx.
 

People who make these decisions are treated like this because it is our church culture. The GAs know this game has been a thing forever but ignore it because abusing and harassing kids into compliance gets them the results they want generally.

if a random kid here and there bails from the church over harassment from leaders called of god- well they are just acceptable casualties. 
 

my family is so taliban- ish about it I’m frankly surprised I wasn’t disowned. Such is life. Don’t like it? Don’t be born Mormon I guess. 

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