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Catholic Bishop: Abortion Is the 'Preeminent Evil in Our Culture.


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3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Don't want to stick my nose in here too much- but I might be the only former Catholic LDS person here to comment-  let me just say that for me, when I first joined up, "spirit prison" seemed pretty identical to purgatory, except I think purgatory is more rigidly defined in Catholicism than spirit prison is for us-  the whole thing is fairly vague, which frankly I like.  For me,  alleging to have more information on these marginal areas of salvation than I think anyone knows for sure just makes me suspicious of the source.

And repentance for murder is certainly one of the biggies- in MY opinion- it's a place where I put up my arms and just say "I don't know"- which is of course a very hard thing for me to do!!  ;)   I mean even in the court system we have murder vs manslaughter, degrees of nuances etc, and I think that abortion is about the same.  I consider it killing a human being from the first meeting of sperm and egg until birth.  But I also think there are a lot of confused people out there.   I think it is a horrid curse on our nation but "everyone else is doing it".  Just glad I don't have to judge anyone!!

Regarding spirit prison in general, of course we typically do not pray for people in spirit prison, and of course we have no "treasury of merit" nor do we have any concept of "interceding" by others.  I say we "don't pray for them" but on the other hand I have personally prayed that person x finds the gospel on the other side.

So no intercession and we are all on our own!  We got ourselves into the jam and we have to get ourselves out! ;)  But of course it is "after grace" and after all we can do in that state.

 I see spirit prison as a place of repentance and "counseling" where one learns the gospel and by means we do not understand, and I think of it more as a place to "see the light" and figure out how stupid we were, and seek forgiveness.   I think once we do that, we are on our way.

One of the ways the Word of Wisdom is taught to children is that if, for example, one is a smoker, or a drinker it is VERY hard to repent of addictions on the other side because we can no longer go "cold turkey" without a body.  Our concept of repentance of course is that one stops committing the sin if one is to "repent" of it- and so after death, how does one stop smoking?  ;)

It's pretty hard for me to accept that kind of stuff as "doctrine", and I think most mature LDS would not get too hung up on ideas like that.

But that is simply my feeling about it.

 

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54 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Thanks for responding to my question about murder.

I'm thinking of the bolded sentence like purgatory in Catholicism. Purgatory is a state of existence (some think of it as an actual place) where one's remaining venial sins are purged or cleansed. The soul is saved, but must be purified before entering heaven.

Would that be similar to the LDS view of a murderer who repented? He has access to heaven, but must be further cleansed before entering?

For others not Catholic, venial sins are minor sins, Mortal sins would affect one's standing in church.   It's perhaps similar to those sins which must be confessed to the bishop and the others - venial sins- are ones which one simply need to be resolved between ourselves and God.

Actually Mortal sins affect salvation for a Catholic- die with one of those unresolved and you better like VERY warm weather.  ;)  Seriously- it's straight to hell.

 

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would say at the point the spirit goes in.

You may be right.

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Considering over 200,000 people have died this year in the US of a specific cause and some people think it is not worth worrying about much I think the capacity for human self-delusion is one of the greatest powers on Earth.

Not sure I understand. Are you disputing the abortion numbers? I don't see how this has anything to do with abortion.

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6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not sure I understand. Are you disputing the abortion numbers? I don't see how this has anything to do with abortion.

I was responding to a post that demanded some kind of answer for what would define "rampant" deaths. I used coronavirus numbers (200,000) as one that some understate and could use people killed by Antifa (0) to show overblown fear. You see similar weird biases. People are more afraid of sharks than cars but cars kill more people by a factor of over 800 times as many.

I am not disputing the numbers. I just cannot accept that abortion is a preeminent evil. It is shrinking. I wish there were no abortions but I accept that some may be justifiable and I am torn internally over whether forbidding them would be good or bad.

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9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Thanks for responding to my question about murder.

I'm thinking of the bolded sentence like purgatory in Catholicism. Purgatory is a state of existence (some think of it as an actual place) where one's remaining venial sins are purged or cleansed. The soul is saved, but must be purified before entering heaven.

Would that be similar to the LDS view of a murderer who repented? He has access to heaven, but must be further cleansed before entering?

Seems probable as while people may emotionally repent of murdering someone while living, how does one perform restitution?  So all that gets worked out while in Spirit Prison.

But plenty of sins are forgiven without offering restitution at all it seems to me and instead trusting in the Lord to make up the difference.  We do teach restitution as part of the repentance process, but I haven't seen a lot of pushing that in action.  Be curious to hear of reports by others who have seen restitution as part of repentance (don't mean trying not to sin again or just be on best behaviour to 'make up for it', but something along the lines of earning the money to pay for something stolen or broken either initiated by the person repenting or by a church leader helping someone with their repentance process.  If sins are less tangible, such as spreading lies about someone...how do you offer restitution for that?

There are also some murderers who have been given permission to be baptized, so it seems in some cases at least we either believe it is possible to fully repent while living or leadership is deciding that part will be taken care by God in some fashion.

I think we tend to teach repentance as a simple process, but then either ignore some of the process and jump straight to invoking the Atonement or perhaps it is more complicated than we teach and that is why we aren't as consistent in our applications of repentance.

Edited by Calm
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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was responding to a post that demanded some kind of answer for what would define "rampant" deaths. I used coronavirus numbers (200,000) as one that some understate and could use people killed by Antifa (0) to show overblown fear. You see similar weird biases. People are more afraid of sharks than cars but cars kill more people by a factor of over 800 times as many.

I am not disputing the numbers. I just cannot accept that abortion is a preeminent evil. It is shrinking. I wish there were no abortions but I accept that some may be justifiable and I am torn internally over whether forbidding them would be good or bad.

I must disagree on all points. I have no weird biases, unless you mean the unfortunate fact that I love kimchee. I don’t swim in shark-infested waters. We only have dogfish in Puget Sound, but the water is way too cold to swim in. I do regularly drive on Interstate 5 through Seattle and Tacoma, Meridian Avenue in Puyallup, and WA State Route 167, so I actually do fear cars much more than sharks. We have bumper stickers that say “Pray for me. I drive Meridian.”

BTW, Antifa has killed and attempted to kill people here in our area. They also cause huge ongoing property damage and disruption of daily life here. I have no idea what that has to do with kimchee.

If COVID killed 125,000 people every day, it might be considered a rampant evil, but it is just virus doing what viruses do. People deliberately performing that many abortions every day.....not a problem. Just another day’s work.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Some people adopt babies of another ethnicity. I never said no one will. I am saying that healthy white newborns are snapped up immediately because they are. There is a reason there is an international adoption trade. It is not that the US foster system is empty. It is because supply (in a very specific area) does not meet the demand.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2019-02-21/us-adoption-system-discriminates-against-darker-skinned-children

https://www.npr.org/2013/06/27/195967886/six-words-black-babies-cost-less-to-adopt

Edited by Calm
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7 hours ago, Calm said:

Seems probable as while people may emotionally repent of murdering someone while living, how does one perform restitution?  But plenty of sins are forgiven without offering restitution and instead trusting in the Lord to make up the difference.  We do teach restitution as part of the repentance process, but I haven't seen a lot of pushing that in action.  Be curious to hear of reports by others who have seen it, either initiated by the person repenting or by a church leader helping someone with their repentance process.

There are some murderers who have been given permission to be baptized, so it seems in some cases at least we either believe it is possible to fully repent and be forgiven while living or leadership is deciding that part will be taken care by God in some fashion.

Restitution is a fundamental principle in addiction recovery. We see it happen all the time. I have experienced it on both sides. I wish Step 9 were taught in our Church lessons on repentance. Instead of talking about repentance in abstract terms and platitudes, it requires decisive actions. This is where the gospel meets the road.

https://addictionrecovery.churchofjesuschrist.org/steps/9?lang=eng

I will share an experience I had, not to boast because it is something of which I am ashamed, but which taught me a valuable lesson...and you asked. :)

When I was in high school I did a very foolish thing to “impress” my best friend. We were into cool jazz and Ferlinghetti and Kerouac, Go, tea houses, and all that stuff. We were in a men’s clothing store. I stole a black beret so I could be more “cool and beat.” There’s a picture of us in our high school yearbook wearing our berets. He didn’t shoplift his. I never repented so my conscience pricked me now and then. Several years after my mission, I was visiting in my home town. I resolved to go back to the store and pay for the beret. I went in and asked if Mr. Goodman was there. No, he and his wife had died and there wa a new owner. I wanted to make restitution, but I was unable to make amends with the person I harmed. So I decided to donate the cost of the hat and a bit more to the Fast Offering fund. Sadly, not all sins can be resolved this way, but I learned a great lesson about sin, repentance, restitution, and procrastination.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 10/6/2020 at 3:59 PM, juliann said:

Soul isn't necessarily a religious word. The argument would likely be over the immortality of a soul, not the life essense or whatever you want to call it itself. Abortion advocates often say fetuses are just a collection of cells, i.e., it's not a "life."  So regardless of religion, at some point that soul/essence that differentiates a bunch of cells from a living person has to appear. 

That's fine but I'm hard pressed to find a non-religious person who accepts the idea of a life essence or soul. I'd be interested to hear what the non-religious think about a not exclusively religious idea and how it pertains to them.

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The topic of abortion is so difficult. I'm watching a netflix about Roe vs. Wade. I see both sides. I hate that any woman would use abortion as a way of birth control. But seriously, how many women do that? I wish every unwanted baby could be adopted out to families that would love and cherish it. But I believe there are certain cases that may need abortion, thinking of the life of the mother here. Also, I've thought that if it's a rape situation, I would think that an abortion would more be the morning after pill. But I don't want this to go back pre Roe vs. Wade and see thousands of women die trying to abort the baby themselves or by going to a shady doctor. So this continues be a tough case. I believe the only way is to have clear guidelines for the taking of life from a baby and do the most humane thing. Baby/mother? Which one is most important? And I wish I knew when life for a baby starts, age old question.

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41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The topic of abortion is so difficult. I'm watching a netflix about Roe vs. Wade. I see both sides. I hate that any woman would use abortion as a way of birth control. But seriously, how many women do that? I wish every unwanted baby could be adopted out to families that would love and cherish it. But I believe there are certain cases that may need abortion, thinking of the life of the mother here. Also, I've thought that if it's a rape situation, I would think that an abortion would more be the morning after pill. But I don't want this to go back pre Roe vs. Wade and see thousands of women die trying to abort the baby themselves or by going to a shady doctor. So this continues be a tough case. I believe the only way is to have clear guidelines for the taking of life from a baby and do the most humane thing. Baby/mother? Which one is most important? And I wish I knew when life for a baby starts, age 

If human babies in the womb aren’t alive, how is it possible that they are able to continually grow and develop in maturity until eventual birth? Are you entertaining the idea that a dead human being can grow and develop as if it’s alive, and then at some point it its development it passes from a state of only appearing to be alive to actually being alive?

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3 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

That's fine but I'm hard pressed to find a non-religious person who accepts the idea of a life essence or soul. I'd be interested to hear what the non-religious think about a not exclusively religious idea and how it pertains to them.

Both Socrates and Plato taught the existence of human souls. I am sure that we could create a very long list of philosophers that thought that souls existed. 

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6 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Both Socrates and Plato taught the existence of human souls. I am sure that we could create a very long list of philosophers that thought that souls existed. 

Socrates referred to God and believed his inner voice (conscience) came from the divine. To call him or his successors irreligious is a bit of a stretch.

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14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

If human babies in the womb aren’t alive, how is it possible that they are able to continually grow and develop in maturity until eventual birth? Are you entertaining the idea that a dead human being can grow and develop as if it’s alive, and then at some point it its development it passes from a state of only appearing to be alive to actually being alive?

These kinds of answers are exactly why discussions on abortions are endless circles.  No one is saying the fetus is not alive.  The question that NO ONE can answer is exactly when does a fetus become a person.

I never consider an egg a chicken.  But at some point, it becomes more a chicken than an egg. The question is, exactly when does that point take place.  

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

If human babies in the womb aren’t alive, how is it possible that they are able to continually grow and develop in maturity until eventual birth? Are you entertaining the idea that a dead human being can grow and develop as if it’s alive, and then at some point it its development it passes from a state of only appearing to be alive to actually being alive?

No, I actually left out, when does the soul or spirit enter the body. I'm sure this was discussed in my LDS circles.

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5 hours ago, california boy said:

These kinds of answers are exactly why discussions on abortions are endless circles.  No one is saying the fetus is not alive.  The question that NO ONE can answer is exactly when does a fetus become a person.

I never consider an egg a chicken.  But at some point, it becomes more a chicken than an egg. The question is, exactly when does that point take place.  

Uh, no, it's  pretty easy.

Do you eat fertilized eggs?  

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35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh, no, it's  pretty easy.

Do you eat fertilized eggs?  

I was going to say that my chicken  eggs will never become chickens. No rooster around. My eggs will become nothing but food or rotten. There is nothing that can be done after the egg is laid. 

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10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh, no, it's  pretty easy.

Do you eat fertilized eggs?  

I once did a photo shoot that used 5 little chicks.  After the photo shoot, we weren't quite sure what to do with the chicks.  I decided to take them home and we ended up raising them.  Turns out there were 4 hens and one rooster.  Every day, we collected the eggs and ate them.  

When you have a rooster, he inserts his sperm into the hen before the egg is laid.  That sperm can last 7 to 10 days in the hen.  Which means that for those 7 to 10 days, most of her eggs will be fertile.  So yes, I ate a lot of fertilized eggs.  You can not tell if the egg is fertilized egg until approximately 5 days after they are laid.  Even then, the only evidence is a small white spot on the egg.  Sometimes a red blood spot will occur.  Since an egg hatches in about 21 days, that means about a fourth of the time it takes for a chicken to develop, you would probably not know whether the egg was fertilized.  Even then, the spot will only develop if the egg is incubated.  If the eggs are kept in the refrigerator, you would not ever know if the egg was fertilized or not.

So can you tell me when an egg becomes a chicken?  Because I ate a lot of fertilized eggs and never once made the mistake of thinking I was eating a chicken.

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16 hours ago, california boy said:

These kinds of answers are exactly why discussions on abortions are endless circles.  No one is saying the fetus is not alive.  The question that NO ONE can answer is exactly when does a fetus become a person.

I never consider an egg a chicken.  But at some point, it becomes more a chicken than an egg. The question is, exactly when does that point take place.  

That was answered in the scientific paper Pogi posted previously.

Quote

Myth 3: "The immediate product of fertilization is just a “potential” or a “possible” human being, not a real existing human being."

Fact 3: As demonstrated above, scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It’s an actual human being, with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.

Myth 4: "A single-cell human zygote, or embryo, or fetus are not human beings, because they do not look like human beings."

Fact 4: As all human embryologists know, a single-cell human zygote, or a more developed human embryo, or human fetus is a human being, and that that’s the way they are supposed to look at those particular periods of development.

 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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14 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

I was going to say that my chicken  eggs will never become chickens. No rooster around. My eggs will become nothing but food or rotten. There is nothing that can be done after the egg is laid. 

It appears you would count them as "chickens" then- if the egg was fertilized?

It seems to be common sense to conclude that that describes the situation.   I sure would not eat a fertilized egg.

Gross!  And so it seems to me that the time of fertilization- just by the logic we use in ordinary language- would dictate that a fertilized egg is thought of as the creature it will grow to be.

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24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It appears you would count them as "chickens" then- if the egg was fertilized?

It seems to be common sense to conclude that that describes the situation.   I sure would not eat a fertilized egg.

Gross!  And so it seems to me that the time of fertilization- just by the logic we use in ordinary language- would dictate that a fertilized egg is thought of as the creature it will grow to be.

Often wondered if I was suppose to eat an egg with a blood spot. My mom would just slide it off with a spoon. It appears she was correct. https://starmilling.com/eggs-with-blood-spots-safe-to-eat/#:~:text=This is most commonly due,a spoon for aesthetic purposes.

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18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Often wondered if I was suppose to eat an egg with a blood spot. My mom would just slide it off with a spoon. It appears she was correct. https://starmilling.com/eggs-with-blood-spots-safe-to-eat/#:~:text=This is most commonly due,a spoon for aesthetic purposes.

Well first of all, I looked it up and blood spots in eggs do not mean they are fertilized.  Regardless, it seems you are agreeing with me that eating fertilized eggs are seen as "gross" and that is for a reason.

And I think that reason is that we (at least for me) see that egg that I know to be fertilized- as a little creature waiting to be born.

And yes those reasons may be "aesthetic" but there is nothing wrong in basing decisions on aesthetics.  Aesthetics I believe is actually about how we make all important decisions in our lives as we "create" our own worlds.

But I suppose that is for another day.  ;)

 

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5 hours ago, california boy said:

I once did a photo shoot that used 5 little chicks.  After the photo shoot, we weren't quite sure what to do with the chicks.  I decided to take them home and we ended up raising them.  Turns out there were 4 hens and one rooster.  Every day, we collected the eggs and ate them.  

When you have a rooster, he inserts his sperm into the hen before the egg is laid.  That sperm can last 7 to 10 days in the hen.  Which means that for those 7 to 10 days, most of her eggs will be fertile.  So yes, I ate a lot of fertilized eggs.  You can not tell if the egg is fertilized egg until approximately 5 days after they are laid.  Even then, the only evidence is a small white spot on the egg.  Sometimes a red blood spot will occur.  Since an egg hatches in about 21 days, that means about a fourth of the time it takes for a chicken to develop, you would probably not know whether the egg was fertilized.  Even then, the spot will only develop if the egg is incubated.  If the eggs are kept in the refrigerator, you would not ever know if the egg was fertilized or not.

So can you tell me when an egg becomes a chicken?  Because I ate a lot of fertilized eggs and never once made the mistake of thinking I was eating a chicken.

OK

As I just said as shown in Tacenda's post it is an aesthetic issue

It hinges on the way different people think about different issues

My point was an analogy, and just a question and I think your answer helped me think it through. 

What I do know is that "mistake" is certainly the wrong word for decisions people make about their preferences.

I guess one man's "gross" is another man's "tasty"!   I would not call it a "mistake" for him to have that preference.

The implication is that there is "one true preference".

My BELIEF is that abortion is murder, just as I am willing to say that "God exists".   You may disagree with that belief but not call it a "mistake" unless you can prove your preference is the "correct one".

And so obviously there are all kinds of implications to that.

Edited by mfbukowski
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