let’s roll Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, JamesBYoung said: I don't. Do you? But we are talking about free agency in deciding these matters. Welch and Larson do not impact this argument for us today. I think Nephi would have been stoned to death for his murder of Laban. He did not stay to find out. Repeat Edited July 9, 2020 by let’s roll
let’s roll Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, JamesBYoung said: I don't. Do you? But we are talking about free agency in deciding these matters. Welch and Larson do not impact this argument for us today. I think Nephi would have been stoned to death for his murder of Laban. He did not stay to find out Edited July 9, 2020 by let’s roll
JamesBYoung Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 10 hours ago, teddyaware said: ... a murderous, thieving, sociopathic, unconscious drunken man. The fact that you left out the most pertinent facts tells me you’ve already made up your mind. Immaterial who or what the man was, but your comments say much. Yes, it was murder.
rodheadlee Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 14 hours ago, JamesBYoung said: Laban would have been drunk for hours and a smart Nephi with a trusty Zoram would have easily escaped. If he is going to steal the plates, I bet he also took Laban's money pouch from his belt. I am not convinced murder most foul was the appropriate remedy. I look forward to you having this conversation with Nephi in the next life. 1
teddyaware Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said: Immaterial who or what the man was, but your comments say much. Yes, it was murder. If Nephi had refused to do as the Spirit had directed, would he have been guilty of violating the will of God? Was Abraham guilty of attempted murder when he was wholly committed to taking Isaac’s life with a knife, in the belief that God would raise Isaac from the dead, but was only prevented from carrying out the slaying of his son when an angel suddenly appeared at the last second and commanded him to stop? Your initial post is poorly reasoned because millions of Lehi’s descendants were saved during the thousand-year history of the Nephite people. Being prevented from dwindling in unbelief for a thousand years proves the brass plates were essential and of inestimable value. Should the Lord have not sent prophets to other nations in the past because they, too, eventually dwindled in unbelief? Edited July 9, 2020 by teddyaware
Tacenda Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 Saw this asked elsewhere... "If the story of Lehi coming to our continent is legit, where did “Reformed Egyptian “ come from ? If anything, Lehi and company would’ve brought Hebrew or a similar language with them."
Calm Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Saw this asked elsewhere... "If the story of Lehi coming to our continent is legit, where did “Reformed Egyptian “ come from ? If anything, Lehi and company would’ve brought Hebrew or a similar language with them." They did bring Hebrew. Moroni speaks of it. As to Reformed Egyptian: https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-did-mormon-and-moroni-write-in-reformed-egyptian 3
Kenngo1969 Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I look forward to you having this conversation with Nephi in the next life. B... Bu... But... the Book of Mormon is just metaphor, or allegory, or inspired fiction, don'tcha know! 1
pogi Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) A couple thoughts on Welch's arguments: He states this: Quote Unlike the modern definition, the ancient idea of premeditation required a murder to have been preplanned or implemented through treachery Ok, (isn't that mostly the same as the modern definition?) but did murder have to be premeditated in the ancient world to be considered murder? Everything I have been reading from other sources suggests that what distinguished murder from manslaughter was if it was "unwittingly" committed. There wasn't really a legal distinction between a pre-planned plot to murder and an in-the-heat-of-the-moment murder. The distinction seems to be if it was intentional or not. If an ancient Israelite killed someone in a heat of the moment argument and it was not premeditated, I don't think they would have let, what we call today a second degree murderer, off the hook. It was still seen as murder if he intentionally killed him. It didn't have to be premeditated as we think of it today. Welch further states: Quote This justification may refer to Exodus 21:13, which states that a slayer may flee to a city of refuge “if [he] lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand” (emphasis added). Every interpretation and commentary that I have read on that passage suggests that it is in reference to an accidental killing (accidental manslaughter) that God doesn't intervene in or stop. If someone is accidentally killed and God didn't intervene to stop the killing, the person is supposed go to a place of refuge away from that place. So, no this is not justification and is completely unrelated to what Nephi did. Quote However, if it is not done intentionally, but God lets it happen, they are to flee to a place I will designate. Nephi's slaying was intentional, however. I am still reading, but just wanted to give a couple thoughts in my studies. Edited July 9, 2020 by pogi
champatsch Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) There are plenty of markers in the text indicating that it isn't Joseph Smith's production: (1 Nephi 4:18–20) 18 Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit (most like 16c periphrastic past) and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword. 19 And after that I had smote off his head with his own sword, (this exact phrase found in Tyndale's Pentateuch [1530]) I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body, yea, even every whit. And I did gird on his armor about my loins. 20 And after that I had done this, I went forth unto the treasury of Laban. (extensive subordinate that in the Book of Mormon, with 8 different subordinators; no pseudobiblical text has it with more than two types of subordinators) Edited July 9, 2020 by champatsch 1
smac97 Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, pogi said: Quote Ben McGuire offers some brief, but thoughtful, remarks: Quote Nephi doesn't talk about the blood because it isn't a part of his purpose in writing the narrative (and he is in part concerned with the difficulty in writing and in having space for the things he is concerned with). He may well have taken Laban's clothing prior to killing him (having already planned that part of his evening) - but then felt constrained to finish the job so to speak. The bigger issue is that we shouldn't feel a need to fill in the gaps - because no matter how we fill them in, we will be speculating - there isn't anything in the text that will actually provide us with the kind of answer that we want. Thanks, -Smac Contrary to Ben's assessment, there is something "in the text that will actually provide us with the kind of answer we want" . The text was very specific about the order of things: Quote And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins. I dunno. Let's walk through Ben's surmise: Nephi, without any particular plan in mind (that is, without premeditation to kill) (1 Nephi 4:6), used stealth to approach Laban's house in the darkness of night. (1 Nephi 4:5) In the darkness, Nephi encountered someone lying on the ground. It is apparently very dark, such that it was not until he reached the person that he recognized him as Laban, lying in a drunken stupor on the ground. (1 Nephi 4:7-8) Nephi examined Laban close enough to see that he has his sword with him in a sheath. Nephi drew it from its sheath and examined it. (1 Nephi 4:9) Nephi states he was "constrained by the Spirit" to "kill Laban," which he was extremely reluctant to do. "Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him." (1 Nephi 4:10) Some time passed, enough for there to be two further instances of the Spirit communicating with him. (1 Nephi 4:11-13) Nephi, after the third communication, contemplated the circumstances and the apparent need to slay Laban. (1 Nephi 4:14-17) Could Nephi at this point have taken some preparatory measures prior to killing Laban? He already had possession of the sword. The text is silent as to what, if anything, happened between A) the three communications from the Spirit to kill Laban and B) the actual killing of Laban. Is it possible that he took a few minutes to take off Laban's clothes and armour? Nephi, assiduously noting that he was "obey{ing} the voice of the Spirit," then killed Laban by decapitating him. (1 Nephi 4:17-18) Verse 19 is interesting: "And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins." There is no indication that he "took the garments of Laban" off of Laban's now decapitated corpse. The text is silent as to whether the clothing/armor were still on Laban's body, or whether Nephi had previously taken them off of Laban. Let's breifly revisit what Hugh Nibley has to say (speaking of Nephi): Quote From time to time the claim is put forth that the story of Laban's death is absurd, if not impossible. It is said that Nephi could not have killed Laban and made his escape. Those who are familiar with night patrolling in wartime, however, will see in Nephi's tale a convincing and realistic account. In the first place, the higher critics are apparently not aware that the lighting of city streets, except for festivals, is a blessing unknown to ages other than our own. Many passages might be cited from ancient writers, classical and Oriental, to show that in times gone by the streets of even the biggest towns were perfectly dark at night, and very dangerous.... ... He was an expert hunter, a skilled swordsman, and a powerful man:11 with due care such a one could do a quick and efficient job and avoid getting much blood on himself. But why should he worry about that? There was not one chance in a thousand of meeting any honest citizen, and in the dark no one would notice the blood anyway. What they would notice would be the armor that Nephi put on, and which, like the sword, could easily be wiped clean. The donning of the armor was the natural and the shrewd thing for Nephi to do. Nibley presents a pretty good circumstantial argument for the proposition that wearing bloody clothes A) underneath armor, B) in the near total darkness of the streets of c. 600 B.C. Jerusalem could have readily been undetectable by Zoram or others he encountered. McGuire's theory is more speculative, as it is based mostly on what Nephi does not say. In any event, I don't think it matters much. Either theory is plausible. Moreover, it's quite understandable that this story can be disturbing and upsetting. All the more reason to be circumspect and thoughtful. All the more reason to give the matter substantial time and effort to study and ponder. And all the less reason to A) rely on the presentist fallacy to B) summarily condemn Nephi as a murderer. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 9, 2020 by smac97 2
Tacenda Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: They did bring Hebrew. Moroni speaks of it. As to Reformed Egyptian: https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/why-did-mormon-and-moroni-write-in-reformed-egyptian Thanks, I'll post this link.
pogi Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, smac97 said: I dunno. Let's walk through Ben's surmise: Nephi encounters a Laban, lying in a drunken stupor on the ground. (1 Nephi 4:7) Nephi examines Laban close enough to see that he has his sword with him in a sheath. Nephi draws it and examines it. (1 Nephi 4:9) Nephi is "constrained by the Spirit" to "kill Laban," which he is extremely reluctant to do. "Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him." (1 Nephi 4:10) Some time passes, enough for there to be two further instances of the Spirit communicating with him. (1 Nephi 4:11-13) Nephi, after the third communication, contemplates the circumstances and the apparent need to slay Laban. (1 Nephi 4:14-17) Could Nephi at this point have taken some preparatory measures prior to killing Laban? He already had possession of the sword. The text is silent as to what, if anything, happened between A) the three communications from the Spirit to kill Laban and B) the actual killing of Laban. Is it possible that took a few minutes to take off Laban's clothes and armour? Nephi, assiduously noting that he was "obey{ing} the voice of the Spirit," then killed Laban by decapitating him. (1 Nephi 4:17-18) Verse 19 is interesting: "And after I had smitten off his head with his own sword, I took the garments of Laban and put them upon mine own body; yea, even every whit; and I did gird on his armor about my loins." There is no indication that he "took the garments of Laban" off of Laban's now decapitated corpse. The text is silent as to whether the clothing/armor were still on Laban's body, or whether Nephi had previously taken them off of Laban. Let's breifly revisit what Hugh Nibley has to say (speaking of Nephi): Nibley presents a pretty good circumstantial argument for the proposition that wearing bloody clothes A) underneath armor, B) in the near total darkness of the streets of c. 600 B.C. Jerusalem could have readily been undetectable by Zoram or others he encountered. McGuire's theory is more speculative, as it is based mostly on what Nephi does not say. In any event, I don't think it matters much. Either theory is plausible. Thanks, -Smac I decided to delete my comment after further review of the text, and before you posted this. The text doesn't state that he removed the clothes from Laban's body after cutting his head off - it simply states that after he smote off his head, he took his garments and put them on. I suppose there is room in the text for the idea that the garments were already removed from his body and in a pile away from the body before he killed him. That is a possibility. Edited July 9, 2020 by pogi
Calm Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 23 minutes ago, pogi said: I decided to delete my comment after further review of the text, and before you posted this. The text doesn't state that he removed the clothes from Laban's body after cutting his head off - it simply states that after he smote off his head, he took his garments and put them on. I suppose there is room in the text for the idea that the garments were already removed from his body and in a pile away from the body before he killed him. That is a possibility. The Spirit gave Nephi detailed instructions on other occasions, could be it prompted Nephi in this case or Nephi was practical enough on his own to think what would be the easiest and least disturbing way to do this.
Tacenda Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Calm said: The Spirit gave Nephi detailed instructions on other occasions, could be it prompted Nephi in this case or Nephi was practical enough on his own to think what would be the easiest and least disturbing way to do this. Also, if we believe Joseph used a seer stone I guess we can believe God cleaned up the blood on the clothing. Heck, everything could be explained that miracles can happen, and that is the reason we don't have a lot of evidence that the BoM is historical.
smac97 Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Also, if we believe Joseph used a seer stone I guess we can believe God cleaned up the blood on the clothing. Heck, everything could be explained that miracles can happen, and that is the reason we don't have a lot of evidence that the BoM is historical. Except that we don't summarily wave away all evidentiary issues saying "miracles can happen." There is certainly a lot of that, to be sure. Such is the case for most systems of religious belief. But it seems like our faith is qualitatively different from pretty muchall others in that there were express efforts to create an ascertainable, somewhat testable body of "evidence." The Gold Plates. The statements of the Three Witnesses and the Eight Witnesses. Textual evidences within the translated work. I think these evidences were intentional. They were given to us by design. Thanks, -Smac
Kenngo1969 Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 3 hours ago, pogi said: I decided to delete my comment after further review of the text, and before you posted this. The text doesn't state that he removed the clothes from Laban's body after cutting his head off - it simply states that after he smote off his head, he took his garments and put them on. I suppose there is room in the text for the idea that the garments were already removed from his body and in a pile away from the body before he killed him. That is a possibility. And everybody knows that, as a rule, tipsy folks are so fastidious in their dress and so skittish about being seen au naturel that none of them ever would think about removing their own clothing! Oh, no!
JamesBYoung Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 8 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I look forward to you having this conversation with Nephi in the next life. Not bothered by that at all.
JamesBYoung Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 8 hours ago, teddyaware said: If Nephi had refused to do as the Spirit had directed, would he have been guilty of violating the will of God? Was Abraham guilty of attempted murder when he was wholly committed to taking Isaac’s life with a knife, in the belief that God would raise Isaac from the dead, but was only prevented from carrying out the slaying of his son when an angel suddenly appeared at the last second and commanded him to stop? Your initial post is poorly reasoned because millions of Lehi’s descendants were saved during the thousand-year history of the Nephite people. Being prevented from dwindling in unbelief for a thousand years proves the brass plates were essential and of inestimable value. Should the Lord have not sent prophets to other nations in the past because they, too, eventually dwindled in unbelief? Your comments are immaterial. What is material is Nephi's relationship with God. I am secure with my relationship with Him. What is ludicrous is the statement "when my God says to kill you, that's all good, but when your God says kill me, that's all bad."
teddyaware Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: Your comments are immaterial. What is material is Nephi's relationship with God. I am secure with my relationship with Him. What is ludicrous is the statement "when my God says to kill you, that's all good, but when your God says kill me, that's all bad." Immaterial only because my comments totally. blow your case to smithereens. Please answer the following question: Was Abraham guilty of attempted murder? Also, should the children of Israel have disobeyed God when he commanded them to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the land of Canaan and leave not a single soul alive?
Calm Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Also, if we believe Joseph used a seer stone I guess we can believe God cleaned up the blood on the clothing. Heck, everything could be explained that miracles can happen, and that is the reason we don't have a lot of evidence that the BoM is historical. Possible, but if he did intervene that way, seems more likely he would have caused Zoram not to notice it in some way.
JamesBYoung Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, teddyaware said: Immaterial only because my comments totally. blow your case to smithereens. Please answer the following question: Was Abraham guilty of attempted murder? Also, should the children of Israel have disobeyed God when he commanded them to utterly destroy the inhabitants of the land of Canaan and leave not a single soul alive? Nonsense. You sound exactly like my evangelical friends in the South, rather bloodthirsty. So you believe that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was justified?
teddyaware Posted July 9, 2020 Posted July 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Also, if we believe Joseph used a seer stone I guess we can believe God cleaned up the blood on the clothing. Heck, everything could be explained that miracles can happen, and that is the reason we don't have a lot of evidence that the BoM is historical. The slaying of Laban and Nephi’s encounter with Zoram happened in the dark.Also, Laban was beheaded, not stabbed and hacked all over his body. Also, if Laban was lying even slightly downhill, most of his spilt blood would have flowed away from his body..
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