'Better That One Man Should Perish Than That a Nation Should Dwindle and Perish in Unbelief'

[Calm]

Here is a quick summary of Welch’s argument:

https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/was-nephis-slaying-of-laban-legal

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

This whole conversation reminds me of the old chestnut where Professor X asks Professor Y if he's read Professor Z's work, whereupon Professor X replies, "Read it?  I haven't even reviewed it yet!"

That is all good and fine, but if someone is going to make a claim (as a matter of fact) on this board without providing a defense or argument other than "have you read so and so's book", then they need to retract the claim or provide an acceptable reference for it.  "Go read _____" is not an acceptable reference.  I am not impressed.   

[JamesBYoung]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is there anything that comes from God that satan can not twist and turn to his use?  I don't believe that there is.  Besides, do you view Nephi, and Daybill and LeBaron in the same light?

I don't.  Do you?  But we are talking about free agency in deciding these matters.  Welch and Larson do not impact this argument for us today.  I think Nephi would have been stoned to death for his murder of Laban.  He did not stay to find out.

[Kenngo1969]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

I haven't read him but I want to now.  I am not justifying Laban's actions.  My guess is that ancient law would have required that Nephi take Laban to be tried, and that ancient law would not have justified Nephi in taking judgment into his own hands and executing the death penalty without trial. 

Yeah.  What's up with Nephi not calling 911, summoning the Jerusalem City Police, and allowing them to take Laban into custody ... whereupon, somehow, prosecutors in the Jerusalem County District Attorney's Office would have found a way to apply 21st-century North American legal standards (even though they hadn't been invented yet), meaning Laban surely would have been tried and acquitted  while Nephi would have been convicted of 1st Degree Aggravated Murder and sentenced to death by lethal injection of drugs that hadn't been invented yet ...

Read.

Jack.

Welch.

 

[Kenngo1969]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is all good and fine, but if someone is going to make a claim (as a matter of fact) on this board without providing a defense or argument other than "have you read so and so's book", then they need to retract the claim or provide an acceptable reference for it.  "Go read _____" is not an acceptable reference.  I am not impressed.   

Asked and answered.

 

[Islander]

4 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Yet these tribes did just that.  They ended up dwindling in unbelief.  And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective.

Thoughts on reconciling this?  

The Book of Mormon mentions a number of times (at least 5 times), the phrase “for a wise purpose” in reference to the making, writing, and preserving of the small plates of Nephi (see 1 Ne. 9:5; W of M 1:7; Alma 37:2, 12, 14, 18). We know that Nephi transcribed significant portions from the Brass Plates onto his own plates in order to preserve the word of the Lord for his own people and future generations. One such purposes was, perhaps, to compensate for the loss of 116 pages of manuscript translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith from the first part of the Book of Mormon (see also D&C 3, 10).

In D&C 10:45 we read: “Behold, there are many things engraven upon the [small] plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel”  

The BoM offers an unequivocal testimony of the living Christ, the means and ways of salvation. It expands on a number of issues dealing with ordinances, authority, revelation and others. It constitute another witness of the Savior.

The BoM is an instrument in the work of the Lord for the conversion of millions. That has certainly been the case in the last 100 years. I have been to almost every country in this continent and can attest to that truth. Think of how many people today do not really believe in the divinity of Christ. Think of how many do not believe that He actually came to the earth to Atone for the sins of mankind and conquer eternal death. Although the bible is here with us, there are some that doubt its historicity and veracity. The BoM is another witness that stands to affirm that the bible is true. 

“And now, I would prophesy somewhat more concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. For after the book of which I have spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many which shall believe the words which are written; and they shall carry them forth unto the remnant of our seed. And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.” 2 Ne 30:3-6

[JamesBYoung]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

How, they would have been on foot with limited means to escape?  How much time would have been left if somehow he had convinced Zoram to give him the plates without the subterfuge after going to get the plates and going to get his brothers?  How far can one travel on foot in that area? Would not Laban have enough men on horses to be able to follow?  It is not as if there were no people around the city once they got past the gates, people who would likely tell Laban given their options what direction they saw the brothers fleeing. 

Laban would have been drunk for hours and a smart Nephi with a trusty Zoram would have easily escaped.  If he is going to steal the plates, I bet he also took Laban's money pouch from his belt.  I am not convinced murder most foul was the appropriate remedy.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

The murder of Laban has always bothered me.

Nephi could have spared his life and just taken the plates.

 

Do you know what would have happened in your scenario?  Might Laban have figured out who stole the plates and gone after Lehi?

 

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

We do have the BoM.

I’m not sure what how this supports your argument.

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

I bet he also took Laban's money pouch from his belt.

This seems to be assuming the worst about one of the Lord’s prophets.  

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

I don't.  Do you?  But we are talking about free agency in deciding these matters.  Welch and Larson do not impact this argument for us today.  I think Nephi would have been stoned to death for his murder of Laban.  He did not stay to find out.

I didn't bring them up, so obviously they aren't relevant for me in this discussion.  They appeared to be relevant to you which is why I asked.  Otherwise, why make the statement you made about them?

We aren't just talking about free agency though, but about agency and obeying God commandments and, and mostly whether or not God has the right to command someone to end another's life and if He has the knowledge to do so righteously.  If God commanded Nephi to kill Laban, then it was the right thing to do, regardless of if he might have been stoned for it or not.  That's really irrelevant to the issue.   

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is all good and fine, but if someone is going to make a claim (as a matter of fact) on this board without providing a defense or argument other than "have you read so and so's book", then they need to retract the claim or provide an acceptable reference for it.  "Go read _____" is not an acceptable reference.  I am not impressed.   

The link I posted should give you enough of an idea of Welch’s argument imo.  

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

Laban would have been drunk for hours

Yet it would take days for them to get away as well as possibly drawing Laban’s attention to the original caravan. I am thinking you are imagining a place where Nephi and his brothers could easily travel without being noticed, disregarding the necessities of traveling in those times as well as the terrain they were traveling through and people there. 
 

There would be a significant difference between traveling in a well organized caravan with sufficient supplies with no one chasing you as happened when Lehi and family left Jerusalem and being pursued as a criminal through the countryside and possible other towns by Laban’s troops and likely others who he would convince to side with him against the rebel prophet causing problems who they could finally kill without getting in trouble because they could claim theft.

You are also assuming Zoram would be trusty in that situation. I think that may be an unfounded assumption. Nephi didn’t give Zoram a chance to demonstrate trustworthiness to him until Zoram was placed in a ‘choose Nephi or die’ situation. Zoram was obviously highly trusted by Laban and may have remained loyal to him as long as he was alive.  

Edited July 8, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree that it wasn't premeditated, but it was definitely murder. 

Murder, by definition, requires premeditation.

It must also be an unlawful killing.

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think that he could have convinced anybody that it wasn't premeditated though.  

Have you read John Welch's treatment?

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think that any judge or jury today would convict him of murder (I am assuming we are judging this by our standards today) if he was caught and arrested. 

Presentism?

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

We can't argue self-defense against a potential future event - "he might hunt me down and kill me for stealing his property", simply wouldn't fly.  "He tried to kill my brothers therefore I had to kill him in self-defense" wouldn't fly either.  That would be seen more as retribution than self defense.  "God made me do it", wouldn't fly. 

But another defense would fly.

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

They kept going back for property that didn't belong to them, and which was not going to be surrendered or sold to them, so they had to kill the guy before they could steal his property.  "Kill" is putting it nicely.  Not only did he kill him, he mutilated and dismembered his body by decapitation, then fraudulently impersonated the dead man he just decapitated in order to steal his property.    Ya, Nephi couldn't have talked his way out of that one.  Not even OJ's lawyers could have won this one. 

A lot of presentism going on...

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

It was murder. 

It was not.

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

It was justified by God, but it was murder. 

Nope.

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

OR, it was a parable.

A parable involving actual physical gold plates.

A parable delivered to Joseph Smith by Nephi's resurrected descendant.

Thanks,

Smac

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

My only question is, how did Nephi cut off Laban's head, then take off his clothes and put them on himself, without having Laban's clothes soaked and dripping with blood?  

People often base their conclusions only on what is said in the scripture in question that describes an event. They don't consider that other things may have also happened that were just not recorded or explained in words. We know that Laban was drunk and had "fallen to the earth", and so was lying unconscience on the ground when Nephi found him and cut off his head (1 Nep 4:7,8,18). Nephi was described as large in stature(1 Ne. 4: 31) and quite strong enough to cleanly and quickly cut off Laban's head.
Being unconscience, Laban would not have struggled much and if he was lying on his stomach and was not on level ground(ie head pointing downhill), the blood could easily have flowed downhill away from his body, with little or no blood getting on the front of his clothing.
Even if some blood had gotten on his clothing and armor, how do we know that Nephi did not wash it off first before putting it on?
When he came to the treasury and saw the servant of Laban, perhaps, because it was night time(verse 5), it was too dark for the servant to notice Lehi's face or see any blood; or Laban's clothing was already a red color making it hard to see any blood stains.
Remember that Nephi spoke in the voice of Laban(verse 20), so the servant already assumed it was Laban. So if he did see blood stains, he might have just assumed that, since Laban was wearing armor(perhaps even a helmet which hid his face), he had just killed or fought with someone else, getting blood on his armor in the process. And, being a lowly servant, Zoram would not have questioned his master about it.
There's lots of logical explanations for this issue.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Laban's clothing was already a red color making it hard to see any blood stains.

Could have blended in with wine stains as drunks aren’t know for their fastidiousness. 
 

As far as fighting, Zoram was likely aware of the attempted murder of Nephi’s brothers. Also Laban was a captain and may been known to kill before. Given the description of him immediately going to murder as an option when he saw the treasure they brought, he comes across to me as someone very familiar with sudden deaths. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Calm

[JamesBYoung]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Yet it would take days for them to get away as well as possibly drawing Laban’s attention to the original caravan. I am thinking you are imagining a place where Nephi and his brothers could easily travel without being noticed, disregarding the necessities of traveling in those times as well as the terrain they were traveling through and people there. 
 

There would be a significant difference between traveling in a well organized caravan with sufficient supplies with no one chasing you as happened when Lehi and family left Jerusalem and being pursued as a criminal through the countryside and possible other towns by Laban’s troops and likely others who he would convince to side with him against the rebel prophet causing problems who they could finally kill without getting in trouble because they could claim theft.

You are also assuming Zoram would be trusty in that situation. I think that may be an unfounded assumption. Nephi didn’t give Zoram a chance to demonstrate trustworthiness to him until Zoram was placed in a ‘choose Nephi or die’ situation. Zoram was obviously highly trusted by Laban and may have remained loyal to him as long as he was alive.  

I am assuming that Lehi et al were not all that far from Jerusalem.

I am assuming that Laban would not have wakened for hours.

I am assuming the money they stole from Laban would have give Nephi and Zoram a good head start.

And I am well aware that we are all assuming.

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by JamesBYoung

[mrmarklin]

5 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

Nephi is told by the spirit when he resists killing Laban that "Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Yet these tribes did just that.  They ended up dwindling in unbelief.  And add that to the fact that 99.9% of the human population dwindles in unbelief in regards to the brass plates today ..... and it seems killing Laban was practically useless and deeply ineffective.

Thoughts on reconciling this?  

The Nephite/Lamanite civilization lasted a thousand years.  Not an insignificant amount of time.  There was a period of almost 200 years when everyone was righteous.  So not a bad trade-off.

The above being said, this is certainly a difficult passage in the BofM.  Many have justified murder and worse in God's name.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That is all good and fine, but if someone is going to make a claim (as a matter of fact) on this board without providing a defense or argument other than "have you read so and so's book", then they need to retract the claim or provide an acceptable reference for it.  "Go read _____" is not an acceptable reference.  I am not impressed.   

It takes about five seconds to google "john welch" and "laban."  And I was responding from my cell.

It's also quite reasonable to suggest that people educate themselves a little prior to pontificating on a particular topic.

• Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban (by John Welch)
• Book of Mormon Central: Was Nephi’s Slaying of Laban Legal?
• FAIR: Ethical considerations related to Nephi's killing of Laban
• Semantic Scholar: Killing Laban: The Birth of Sovereignty in the Nephite Constitutional Order (by V.E. Larsen)
• SHIELDS: A Note on the Slaying of Laban (by John Tvedtnes)
• By Common Consent: Actually Reading Nephi (by John C)

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 8, 2020 by smac97

[pogi]

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Murder, by definition, requires premeditation.

It must also be an unlawful killing.

That is true for First degree murder, not second degree murder.  Second degree murder simply requires intent to kill without premeditation.   I think that can be established in this case.

I am yet to be convinced that it wouldn't have been found unlawful (Yes, I have now read Welch's treatment.)

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Presentism?

Yes.  Like I said, it was based on the assumption that you were also coming from that perspective. 

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But another defense would fly.

Like what? That it wasn't premeditated and that God made him do it?  I don't buy that that argument would fly.  Nor do I trust that Welch's treatment is based entirely on Israeli law circa 660 BC.  Even he admits that he doesn't know for sure.

59 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A parable involving actual physical gold plates.

A parable delivered to Joseph Smith by Nephi's resurrected descendant.

A real-life event involving decapitating the head from a clothed body, removing that clothing and dressing oneself in it without having blood soaking and dripping from your clothing and all over the place?   Not to be gruesome, but does anyone realize how much blood pumps through the carotid arteries?  Those are not the only arteries that supply blood to the head, not to mention the veins returning blood back to the body - all severed. We are talking pools of blood instantly, squirting and shooting all over the place.  I don't know if anyone has tried to undress a dead person...I have when cleaning deceased bodies for hospice.  It is incredibly difficult!  It would be impossible not to get blood all over the place.  There is no way the clothing wouldn't be soaked

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by pogi

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

am assuming that Lehi et al were not all that far from Jerusalem.

Weren’t they at least three days travel into the wilderness? Which may have been three days past the border of the more inhabited areas which may have meant many more days or even weeks of travel. 
 

Quote

am assuming the money they stole from Laban would have give Nephi and Zoram a good head start.

Why?  Not like they could hire cars or take a train. At best horses following horses and horses can’t be ridden well at night without risk. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is true for First degree murder, not second degree murder.  Second degree murder simply requires intent to kill without premeditation.   I think that can be established in this case.

The presentist fallacy continues apace.

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am yet to be convinced that it wouldn't have been found unlawful (Yes, I have now read Welch's treatment.)

All 25 pages of it?  And you digested and understood its fairly dense legal and historical analysis?

Well, okay.  Could you lay out your disagreement with Welch?  

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quote

Presentism?

Yes.  Like I said, it was based on the assumption that you were also coming from that perspective. 

I don't understand.  I am suggesting that you are operating under a presentist fallacy.  Are you admitting or disputing that?

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quote

But another defense would fly.

Like what? That it wasn't premeditated and that God made him do it?  I don't buy that that argument would fly.  Nor do I trust that Welch's treatment is based entirely on Israeli law circa 660 BC.  Even he admits that he doesn't know for sure.

I meant to type "another defense could fly."  Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Why do you disagree with Welch?

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quote

A parable involving actual physical gold plates.

A parable delivered to Joseph Smith by Nephi's resurrected descendant.

A real-life event involving decapitating the head from a clothed body, removing that clothing and dressing oneself in it without having blood soaking and dripping from your clothing and all over the place?  

I didn't say that.  

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not to be gruesome, but does anyone realize how much blood pumps through the carotid arteries? 

We're generally aware, yes.

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

Those are not the only arteries that supply blood to the head, not to mention the veins returning blood back to the body - all severed. We are talking pools of blood instantly, squirting and shooting all over the place.  I don't know if anyone has tried to undress a dead person...I have when cleaning deceased bodies for hospice.  It is incredibly difficult!  It would be impossible not to get blood all over the place.  There is no way the clothing wouldn't be soaked

Okay.  I'm not sure why this is a significant point.  Could you clarify?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It takes about five seconds to google "john welch" and "laban."  And I was responding from my cell.

It's also quite reasonable to suggest that people educate themselves a little prior to pontificating on a particular topic.

• Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban (by John Welch)
• Book of Mormon Central: Was Nephi’s Slaying of Laban Legal?
• FAIR: Ethical considerations related to Nephi's killing of Laban
• Semantic Scholar: Killing Laban: The Birth of Sovereignty in the Nephite Constitutional Order (by V.E. Larsen)
• SHIELDS: A Note on the Slaying of Laban (by John Tvedtnes)
• By Common Consent: Actually Reading Nephi (by John C)

Thanks,

-Smac

Don't worry, Smac97.  He was attacking me for having the temerity to suggest that he read Jack Welch.

My Claim: "Nephi's slaying of Laban wasn't considered murder under 600 BCE legal norms."

Pogi et al: "Oh, yeah?  Prove it!"

Me: "Have you read Jack Welch's 'Legal Perspectives on the Slaying of Laban' and Val Larsen's 'Killing Laban: The Birth of Sovereignty in the Nephite Constitutional Order'?"

Pogi et al: "Phhh!  You think I should read two whole articles?  Get real, man!"

Sigh.  I'll see if I can find my copy of Jack Welch's The Legal Cases in the Book of Mormon.

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

A real story involving decapitating the head from a clothed body, removing that clothing and dressing oneself in it without having blood soaking and dripping from your clothing and all over the place?   Not to be gruesome, but does anyone realize how much blood pumps through the carotid arteries?  Those are not the only arteries that supply blood to the head, not to mention the veins returning blood back to the body - all severed. We are talking pools of blood instantly.  I don't know if anyone has tried to undress a dead person...I have when cleaning deceased bodies for hospice.  It is incredibly difficult!  There is no way the clothing wouldn't be soaked

 

 

I wonder if it was more a cloak or leather armor. Zoram may have been carrying a torch, but if it was dark enough it wasn’t a miracle interfering with him recognizing Nephi, an outline rather than all the clothing would have been enough. 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I wonder if it was more a cloak or leather armor. Zoram may have been carrying a torch, but if it was dark enough it wasn’t a miracle interfering with him recognizing Nephi, an outline rather than all the clothing would have been enough. 

Hugh Nibley had some interesting thoughts as well:

Quote

From time to time the claim is put forth that the story of Laban's death is absurd, if not impossible. It is said that Nephi could not have killed Laban and made his escape. Those who are familiar with night patrolling in wartime, however, will see in Nephi's tale a convincing and realistic account. In the first place, the higher critics are apparently not aware that the lighting of city streets, except for festivals, is a blessing unknown to ages other than our own. Many passages might be cited from ancient writers, classical and Oriental, to show that in times gone by the streets of even the biggest towns were perfectly dark at night, and very dangerous....

The extreme narrowness of ancient streets made their blackout doubly effective. From the Greek and Roman comedy and from the poets we learn how heavily barred and closely guarded the doors of private houses had to be at night, and archaeology has shown us cities farther east (e.g., Mohenjo-Daro) in which apparently not a single house window opened onto the public street, as few do even today at ground level. East and West, the inmates simply shut themselves in at night as if in a besieged fortress. Even in Shakespeare's day we see the comical terror of the nightwatch passing through the streets at hours when all honest people are behind doors. In a word, the streets of any ancient city after sundown were a perfect setting for the committing of deeds of violence without fear of detection.

It was very late when Nephi came upon Laban (1 Nephi 4:5,22); the streets were deserted and dark. Let the reader imagine what he would do if he were on patrol near enemy headquarters during a blackout and stumbled upon the unconscious form of some notoriously bloodthirsty enemy commander, renowned for his brutal and treacherous treatment of friend and foe alike. By the rough code of war the foe has no claim to a formal trial, and it is now or never. Laban was wearing armor, so that the only chance of dispatching him quickly, painlessly, and safely was to cut off his head—the conventional treatment of even petty criminals in the East, where beheading has always been by the sword, and where an executioner would be fined for failing to decapitate his victim at one clean stroke. Nephi drew the sharp, heavy weapon and stood over Laban for a long time, debating his course (1 Nephi 4:9—18. He was an expert hunter, a skilled swordsman, and a powerful man:11 with due care such a one could do a quick and efficient job and avoid getting much blood on himself. But why should he worry about that? There was not one chance in a thousand of meeting any honest citizen, and in the dark no one would notice the blood anyway. What they would notice would be the armor that Nephi put on, and which, like the sword, could easily be wiped clean. The donning of the armor was the natural and the shrewd thing for Nephi to do. A number of instances from the last war could be cited to show that a spy in the enemy camp is never so safe as when he is wearing the insignia of a high military official—provided he does not hang around too long, and Nephi had no intention of doing that. No one dares challenge "big brass" too closely (least of all a grim and hot-tempered Laban); their business is at all times "top secret," and their uniform gives them complete freedom to come and to go unquestioned.

Nephi tells us that he was "led by the Spirit" (1 Nephi 4:6). He was not taking impossible chances, but being in a tight place he followed the surest formula of those who have successfully carried off ticklish assignments. His audacity and speed were rewarded, and he was clear of the town before anything was discovered. In his whole exploit there is nothing in the least improbable.

How Nephi disguised himself in the clothes of Laban and tricked Laban's servant into admitting him to the treasury is an authentic bit of Oriental romance (e.g., Haroun al-Rashid) and of history as well. One need but think of Sir Richard Burton's amazingly audacious masquerades in the East, carried on in broad daylight and for months on end with perfect success, to realize that such a thing is entirely possible.

Presentist thinking can impede our understanding of such things.  

I've never been bothered by the logistics of the killing of Laban.  The legal and ethical/moral implications, on the other hand, are substantial and deserve some real attention and study.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

Given what happened to the people of Zarahemla, which, in my opinion, illustrates from the Book of Mormon itself one of the reasons why it was so important that Nephi and his family obtain the Plates of Brass, I think it's worth asking whether we would even have the Book of Mormon if they hadn't obtained the Plates of Brass.