JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, let’s roll said: How do you feel about the flood? That type of question takes me back to many years of evangelicals asking similar questions. "If God said kill the children, then kill the children."
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: I agree that it wasn't premeditated, but it was definitely murder. I don't think that he could have convinced anybody that it wasn't premeditated though. I think that any judge or jury today would convict him of murder (I am assuming we are judging this by our standards) today. We can't argue self-defense against a potential future event - "he might hunt me down and kill me for stealing his property", simply wouldn't fly. "He tried to kill my brothers therefore I had to kill him in self-defense" wouldn't fly either. That would be seen more as retribution than self defense. "God made me do it", wouldn't fly. They kept going back for property that didn't belong to them, and which was not going to be surrendered or sold to them, so they had to kill the guy before they could steal his property. "Kill" is putting it nicely. Not only did he kill him, he mutilated and dismembered his body by decapitation, then fraudulently impersonate the dead man he just decapitated in order to steal his property. Ya, Nephi couldn't have talked his way out of that one. Not even OJ's lawyers could have won this one. It was murder. It was justified by God, but it was murder. Just like the genocides of the Old Testament were justified by God, but it was still genocide. And we're still applying 21st-century North American legal standards to an incident purported to have occurred in Jerusalem in 600 BCE! Oooh-kay!
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, pogi said: it was definitely murder. By our laws, I agree. By theirs, I don’t believe so as they had conditions that made exceptions for such. (In Welch’s work)
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: Yeah. Okay. If you're determined to apply 21st-century North American legal standards to an event that purportedly occurred in Jerusalem in 600 BCE, there will be no convincing you. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Moving on! So if you are going to apply 6th Century BCE standards to today, there will be no convincing you. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Moving on!
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: So he should have waited until the man woke up sober and drew his sword? Even though that would have destroyed Nephi’s ability to get away even if successful? And likely condemned his family to death? (Laban would likely have sent out his men to hunt down the brothers to prevent any retaliation, without their sons, Lehi and Sariah would not have survived even if Laban ignored them). It reminds of Jael and her hammer...though she personally lulled Sisera to sleep rather than finding him that way. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jael People who have little to no power have to resort to drastic measures at times when lives are threatened, imo. Not a decision I would want to make even with the Spirit telling me what to do Nephi et al should have been long gone. Jael, I think, had a much greater defense for whacking Sisera. Your final sentence resonates strongly with me.
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: They kept going back for property that didn't belong to them, and which was not going to be surrendered or sold to them, so they had to kill the guy before they could steal his property Technically if Laban took payment for the property, one might claim the property was theirs. Not sure how that would work now or then. Laban took what was offered in payment, but he had no intent to give it to them...so no contract or is there a contract? 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, JamesBYoung said: That type of question takes me back to many years of evangelicals asking similar questions. "If God said kill the children, then kill the children." Right! Better to let them grow into wicked adults (at which time their souls would be lost, at least as regards exaltation) than, according to the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, put them into a situation where, not only is their salvation assured, their exaltation is assured, as well!
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: Not really. Nephi had experience with Laban attempting to murder his family members after stealing all their wealth. While this not grounds for killing later on, today, I certainly sympathize with the impulse. Several relatives in a probate case have said things that later on, in retrospect, they wish they had not said.
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 59 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Right! Better to let them grow into wicked adults (at which time their souls would be lost, at least as regards exaltation) than, according to the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, put them into a situation where, not only is their salvation assured, their exaltation is assured, as well! Better to let them be their own free agents then practicing unrighteous dominion over them. Your comments sound very similar to Catholic inquisitors of faith and behavior, you know.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: So if you are going to apply 6th Century BCE standards to today, there will be no convincing you. Thanks for clearing that up for us. Moving on! I'm not applying them to today! Look in the mirror, Dude! Too much willful incomprehension going on here. I'm out. Thanks.
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, JamesBYoung said: Nephi et al should have been long gone. How, they would have been on foot with limited means to escape? How much time would have been left if somehow he had convinced Zoram to give him the plates without the subterfuge after going to get the plates and going to get his brothers? How far can one travel on foot in that area? Would not Laban have enough men on horses to be able to follow? It is not as if there were no people around the city once they got past the gates, people who would likely tell Laban given their options what direction they saw the brothers fleeing. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: Better to let them be their own free agents then practicing unrighteous dominion over them. Your comments sound very similar to Catholic inquisitors of faith and behavior, you know. Oh, well. If I think God owes me an explanation for what He decides to do (or not) in any given circumstance, I'll be sure to let Him know when I get the chance. (There's a great chance that ain't happenin' ... ever ... but ... !!!)
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: And we're still applying 21st-century North American legal standards to an incident purported to have occurred in Jerusalem in 600 BCE! Oooh-kay! Yes, I made that clear that I was judging him by our standards today. The argument was that he didn't commit murder. Is that a claim that anyone can prove by Israeli law in 600 BCE? I doubt it. I am willing to bet that he would have been stoned for theft and murder. 1
JamesBYoung Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: I'm not applying them to today! Look in the mirror, Dude! Too much willful incomprehension going on here. I'm out. Thanks. The anger and irritation displayed by some is understandable, considering that their logic is fallible, imo. Yes, this is an incredibly difficult moral question. I am quite willing to abide by my free agency and my duty to God to make the difficult decisions. Edited July 8, 2020 by JamesBYoung
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Calm said: By our laws, I agree. By theirs, I don’t believe so as they had conditions that made exceptions for such. (In Welch’s work) I haven't read his work, and I would be curious to see his argument. But I highly doubt that killing Laban in an effort to steal his property would have been seen as anything but murder.
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: While this not grounds for killing later on, today, I certainly sympathize with the impulse. Several relatives in a probate case have said things that later on, in retrospect, they wish they had not said. I agree it would be different today. They at least could argue in court they had a right to the plates if they had documented the exchange for the treasure. Also there would be legal means for protection from Laban...at least as long as Laban didn’t forge or plant evidence against themor took out a contract on their lives. But then today in this country at least, Lehi wouldn’t have had to leave because his life was threatened because of his preaching. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pogi said: Yes, I made that clear that I was judging him by our standards today. The argument was that he didn't commit murder. Is that a claim that anyone can prove by Israeli law in 600 BCE? I doubt it. I am willing to bet that he would have been stoned for theft and murder. I think you're focusing entirely too much on what Nephi and his brothers did, and, in turn, not focusing nearly enough on what Laban did. (Have you read Welch and Larsen?) If you're cool with Laban casting Nephi, Laman, and Lemuel out after the latter three had offered the former their property (and had left it there after he kicked them out), I guess I'll leave you to it. Me? Sorry, but, nah! Edited July 8, 2020 by Kenngo1969
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: The anger and irritation displayed by some is understandable, considering that their logic is fallible, imo. I think the irritation is more from your misreading than the strength of your arguments. Appealing to Welch means they are using 6th century laws to judge 6th century behaviour or at least trying to. 2
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, Calm said: Technically if Laban took payment for the property, one might claim the property was theirs. Not sure how that would work now or then. Laban took what was offered in payment, but he had no intent to give it to them...so no contract or is there a contract? I don't know if anyone knows the answer to that. That is the difficulty with this. People are claiming that Nephi wouldn't have been innocent according to ancient standards/law, but how can they prove that? I am not convinced. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said: The anger and irritation displayed by some is understandable, considering that their logic is fallible, imo. Yep! I agree! Somebody's logic is flawed, all right! 1
Calm Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, pogi said: I haven't read his work, and I would be curious to see his argument. But I highly doubt that killing Laban in an effort to steal his property would have been seen as anything but murder. You should. Laban’s behaviour and God’s for that matter is taken into account according to biblical/cultural laws at the time if Welch is accurate, iirc. Quite different from how we approach things which is most dependent on what is happening in the moment. Edited July 8, 2020 by Calm
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pogi said: I haven't read his work, and I would be curious to see his argument. But I highly doubt that killing Laban in an effort to steal his property would have been seen as anything but murder. This whole conversation reminds me of the old chestnut where Professor X asks Professor Y if he's read Professor Z's work, whereupon Professor X replies scornfully, "Read it? I haven't even reviewed it yet!" Edited July 8, 2020 by Kenngo1969 1
bluebell Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 hour ago, JamesBYoung said: Right out of the Daybill and LeBaron playbook: "God told me." Is there anything that comes from God that satan can not twist and turn to his use? I don't believe that there is. Besides, do you view Nephi, and Daybill and LeBaron in the same light? 1
pogi Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said: I think you're focusing entirely too much on what Nephi and his brothers did, and, in turn, not focusing nearly enough on what Laban did. (Have you read Welch and Larsen?) If you're cool with Laban casting Nephi, Laman, and Lemuel out after the latter three had offered the former their property, I guess I'll leave you to it. Me? Sorry, but, nah! I haven't read him but I want to now. I am not justifying Laban's actions. My guess is that ancient law would have required that Nephi take Laban to be tried, and that ancient law would not have justified Nephi in taking judgment into his own hands and executing the death penalty without trial.
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2020 Posted July 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: Is there anything that comes from God that satan can not twist and turn to his use? I don't believe that there is. Besides, do you view Nephi, and Daybill and LeBaron in the same light? Yes, he does!
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