'Better That One Man Should Perish Than That a Nation Should Dwindle and Perish in Unbelief'

[Meadowchik]

40 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It would likely be prosecuted as some degree of murder under the laws of some jurisdictions today, but in Nephi's day and under the particular laws of his nation, I understand it was not considered such.

I'm skeptical. Attempted murder is not murder. And I am not sure the law authorized vigilante justice that Nephi claimed.

[USU78]

13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm skeptical. Attempted murder is not murder. And I am not sure the law authorized vigilante justice that Nephi claimed.

So, enlighten us. Tell us how that worked in First Temple Judah.

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm skeptical. Attempted murder is not murder. And I am not sure the law authorized vigilante justice that Nephi claimed.

"Slay" and "kill" -- the terms used -- do not necessarily convey murder. Nephi's reticence was not because he considered it "murder" by the legal definition, but because it was serious life-and-death business that in his youth he was prepared to undertake. "Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him." Nowhere does he express any moral dilemma, and the reasons given him to proceed were framed as matters of fairness and justice, not defining right behavior or good character.

I'm sure there will be posts that follow that inform you of the laws Nephi was operating and protected under and disabuse you of the notion that he was undertaking this action without legal sanction.

Edited July 12, 2020 by CV75

[Meadowchik]

52 minutes ago, CV75 said:

"Slay" and "kill" -- the terms used -- do not necessarily convey murder. Nephi's reticence was not because he considered it "murder" by the legal definition, but because it was serious life-and-death business that in his youth he was prepared to undertake. "Never at any time have I shed the blood of man. And I shrunk and would that I might not slay him." Nowhere does he express any moral dilemma, and the reasons given him to proceed were framed as matters of fairness and justice, not defining right behavior or good character.

I'm sure there will be posts that follow that inform you of the laws Nephi was operating and protected under and disabuse you of the notion that he was undertaking this action without legal sanction.

Others here have already attempted a legal defense via Exodus, but they seem only  vaguely relevant and remain unconvincing.

[RevTestament]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:32 AM, pogi said:

No commentary I have read on this passage frames this as attempted murder, but actual murder.  It is distinguishing between premeditated-intentional murder and accidental manslaughter in the prior verse. 

See commentaries here:

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/21-14.htm

I have searched high and low for anything suggesting that attempted murder in ancient Israel was punishable by death.  I can find nothing - with one exception - if you attempt to kill your parents, you are guilty of death. 

 

There is another law that what a man seeks to do wrongly, that punishment can be brought against him. So a witness who testifies falsely in a case involving capital punishment in a murder case, can be put to death for trying to falsely kill his brother. 

Deut 19:16-19

The Mosaic law was built upon the principle of an eye for an eye. So if you sought to kill your brother, the right punishment was death. The safeguards were the requirement of judges, often two witnesses, etc. It has hard to prosecute someone under the Mosaic law unless you had very good evidence. That is because men can err, but God knowing our hearts, cannot err. The punishment of Laban was quite consistent under the law and was fair.

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm skeptical. Attempted murder is not murder. And I am not sure the law authorized vigilante justice that Nephi claimed.

Perhaps labans guards would be considered police and were authorized to kill nephi and his bros, in the eyes of the law, due to what the boss saw as an attempt to steal from him.  Or perhaps if they caught nephi after the decapitation if they would have been lawfully justified to kill him.  If so one wonders if the law would have equally justified nephi's murder of laban.  We would never know.  As it is though the story doesn't add up, at least not to me.  Best if one takes it as some sort of metaphor and does not treat spiritual impressions as a justification for murder.  

[Meadowchik]

How is this

33 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

It has hard to prosecute someone under the Mosaic law unless you had very good evidence. That is because men can err, but God knowing our hearts, cannot err. 

consistent with this?

33 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

The punishment of Laban was quite consistent under the law and was fair.

We cannot know what God wanted in this instance. All we know in the story is what Nephi thinks God wanted. Therefore it is a story about Nephi killing an unconscious Laban for reasons he describes to the audience after the fact.

 

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Perhaps labans guards would be considered police and were authorized to kill nephi and his bros, in the eyes of the law, due to what the boss saw as an attempt to steal from him.  Or perhaps if they caught nephi after the decapitation if they would have been lawfully justified to kill him.  If so one wonders if the law would have equally justified nephi's murder of laban.  We would never know.  As it is though the story doesn't add up, at least not to me.  Best if one takes it as some sort of metaphor and does not treat spiritual impressions as a justification for murder.  

Exactly. It's such shaky spiritual ground. It it a model of peril and harm.

[let’s roll]

23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

We cannot know what God wanted in this instance. All we know in the story is what Nephi thinks God wanted. Therefore it is a story about Nephi killing an unconscious Laban for reasons he describes to the audience after the fact.

Of course believers believe we all can know.  God has promised such knowledge to all of His children who inquire of Him with the requisite intent.

 

[let’s roll]

On 7/10/2020 at 1:41 PM, stemelbow said:

unbelief isn't dwindling nor perishing.  Its thriving and living.  Belief is a bit o' a set of chains wrapped around ya.  

Belief, properly exercised, leads to a state devoid of fear and doubt.  I don’t see how chains could be used in a description of such a state.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Others here have already attempted a legal defense via Exodus, but they seem only  vaguely relevant and remain unconvincing.

I'm talking about the particulars of Jewish law at the time of Nephi, and I'm sure you can research it if others don't bring them up, or research it anyway if you are interested.

[Meadowchik]

25 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Of course believers believe we all can know.  God has promised such knowledge to all of His children who inquire of Him with the requisite intent.

 

Do you believe you can be sure enough to kill an unconscious "Laban"? Would you accept that if you were the Laban? Would you accept that reasoning if the Laban was someone you love or are called to protect?

[Meadowchik]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm talking about the particulars of Jewish law at the time of Nephi, and I'm sure you can research it if others don't bring them up, or research it anyway if you are interested.

So am I. I haven't seen anything justifying Nephi according to Jewish law at the time. I've seen people attempt to use it but it doesn't seem relevant enough and is not convincing.

[echelon]

It is strange to me that the first thing Nephi notices after recognizing Laban is his sword and then spent some time describing how awesome it was.  It wasn't until after he drew it out that the spirit spoke to him, though it's not hard to for a passing thought of his own to kill him now that he has it in his hand.  He then appears to spend a long time rationalizing it out with occasional personal interpretations of the spirit (as far as I know the Holy Ghost does not have a audible voice like the angels do) and in the end convinced himself that it must be a commandment from God and he must go through with it.

If this is what Jesus indeed commanded , then one of the doctrines coming out of it is "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."  How we apply that through gospel principle is beyond me and I don't think any of the modern prophets have even tried.

To me there is too much missing to get any real value out of it other than another piece of doctrine "There are exceptions to God's commandments, but only if he commands it - i.e. obedience"

[TheTanakas]

On 7/8/2020 at 2:16 PM, pogi said:

One could argue that we wouldn’t have the BoM today without the brass plates.

You forgot to mention the gold plates.

[USU78]

19 minutes ago, echelon said:

To me there is too much missing to get any real value out of it other than another piece of doctrine "There are exceptions to God's commandments, but only if he commands it - i.e. obedience"

Nice insight, and certainly consistent with Nephi's understanding ... as well as other phenomena, like polygyny, for example. JSJr is reported to have expressly qualified callings to polygyny as specific, personal, and exceptional for the individual.

Such a calling is so very out of the ordinary that I believe it to be unmistakable for the recipient. No real reason to fear general grasping of the exceptional for personal aggrandizement.

[stemelbow]

50 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Belief, properly exercised, leads to a state devoid of fear and doubt.  I don’t see how chains could be used in a description of such a state.

Maybe so,but I haven't seen it.  Belief as practiced, perhaps improperly exercised, embraces fears, usually odd extravagant fears.  As it's been practiced belief seems only possible thanks to purveyors exploitation of fears.  

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Maybe so,but I haven't seen it.  Belief as practiced, perhaps improperly exercised, embraces fears, usually odd extravagant fears.  As it's been practiced belief seems only possible thanks to purveyors exploitation of fears.  

This seems awfully dismissive of others and judgy of authority. Am I understanding you correctly?

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Do you believe you can be sure enough to kill an unconscious "Laban"? Would you accept that if you were the Laban? Would you accept that reasoning if the Laban was someone you love or are called to protect?

Yes. Yes. And yes. As to the latter two, all will confess all of God’s judgments are just.  At what point we do that is up to each of us.  I don’t imagine Laban was on board at the time it happened.  But our acknowledgment of the justice of each of God’s judgments will encompass His final judgment with respect to each of us as well as all judgments leading up to that final judgment.

 

[let’s roll]

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Maybe so,but I haven't seen it.  Belief as practiced, perhaps improperly exercised, embraces fears, usually odd extravagant fears.  As it's been practiced belief seems only possible thanks to purveyors exploitation of fears.  

I have seen it.  The rest of the Lord is a beautiful and compelling experience.

[Meadowchik]

28 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Yes. Yes. And yes. As to the latter two, all will confess all of God’s judgments are just.  At what point we do that is up to each of us.  I don’t imagine Laban was on board at the time it happened.  But our acknowledgment of the justice of each of God’s judgments will encompass His final judgment with respect to each of us as well as all judgments leading up to that final judgment.

 

Imo that level of certainty lacks the humility necessary to respect truth, and is fraught with moral and spiritual hazards.

[let’s roll]

12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Imo that level of certainty lacks the humility necessary to respect truth, and is fraught with moral and spiritual hazards.

Imo it is an acknowledgement of God’s omniscience and perfect love, which we all one day will acknowledge.  Again, it’s up to each of us to decide how soon we decide to do so.  Some will choose to wait until there is no possibility to deny it.

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So am I. I haven't seen anything justifying Nephi according to Jewish law at the time. I've seen people attempt to use it but it doesn't seem relevant enough and is not convincing.

The quote I shared from Nephi allows that he was either a goel hadam in-training, or had been assigned the role but had never carried it out before. But of course Laban coming after them to take their lives after taking their goods had nothing to do with Nephi's justifiable homicide.

[CV75]

On 7/8/2020 at 5:25 PM, pogi said:

My only question is, how did Nephi cut off Laban's head, then take off his clothes and put them on himself, without having Laban's clothes soaked and dripping with blood?  

He executed Laban with the head below the level of the rest of his body and allowed the blood to drain appreciably. If it was a decapitation, it could have been internal, if administered by the proper thrust. Or, the reference to the "head" that was smitten off could have been a portion of the back of the skull or some other vulnerable piece of the cranium.

Plus Laban was one of those exhibitionist drunks who liked to take off his clothes.

Edited July 12, 2020 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Maybe so,but I haven't seen it.  Belief as practiced, perhaps improperly exercised, embraces fears, usually odd extravagant fears.  As it's been practiced belief seems only possible thanks to purveyors exploitation of fears.  

You should try living the slogan "Faith, not Fear".

It works.  Fear is just borrowing trouble before it happens- it's in the imagination.   Fear itself is the opposite of faith- in a way it is putting your faith in the negative.  What you fear hasn't happened to you yet-- why not choose to focus on faith that it won't happen, and hand it over to God and his ability to help us change our attitude!

 

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You should try living the slogan "Faith, not Fear".

It works.  Fear is just borrowing trouble before it happens- it's in the imagination.   Fear itself is the opposite of faith- in a way it is putting your faith in the negative.  What you fear hasn't happened to you yet-- why not choose to focus on faith that it won't happen, and hand it over to God and his ability to help us change our attitude!

 

Which, btw, is a pretty solid argument for Nephi to not kill an unconscious Laban. 

Faith to do good, faith that good will prevail.