mfbukowski Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: unbelief isn't dwindling nor perishing. Its thriving and living. Belief is a bit o' a set of chains wrapped around ya. That's just your belief. You can't get out of believing something. That belief of yours does something for you to construct your world, perhaps of agnosticism etc. but it is just as much a belief as anything. Even Nihilism is a "belief" Edited July 10, 2020 by mfbukowski
Meadowchik Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: IF it is not historical, then it is all a parable, and using parables was Christ's prime way of teaching. On this view, Joseph needed the plates because he thought he needed them- his purpose from the beginning was digging for treasure of one kind or another. Arguably even he at first at least needed an historical crutch. Yet in most D&C revelations he was able to know the Lord's voice and dropped the need for plates or papyri Taking your words and "translating them correctly" into secularese, this is my translation: "So in the story, Nephi kills Laban to take the plates which preserved the spiritual principle that even in the case of Christ himself, it is necessary that one man sometimes perish to save many - which principle, if they were able to understand,- they would see as self evident, without the need for historical evidence since only as a spiritual witness of truth that God can give us independent of material proof is necessary." Don't worry. In a hundred years, when everyone sees text as post post-post modern, (since we are already post-postmoderns) whatever they call it, they will understand the need for stories and literature that give life meaning, even if they never "happened", and even history itself will be seen as "his-story" and "her-story" Stories conflict. People get stuff wrong, even on the internet. It's ok, we'll get through it. Thanks for your explanation 👍 Personally, though, I really find the killing of Laban to be a problematic spiritual lesson. To me it is a level of zealotry which is highly dangerous to spirituality if it is internalised. Edited July 10, 2020 by Meadowchik 1
stemelbow Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: That's just your belief. You can't get out of believing something. That belief of yours does something for you to construct your world, perhaps of agnosticism etc. but it is just as much a belief as anything. If one can't unbelieve, if you will, then how could some ancient nation dwindle and perish in unbelief? God must have lied about that.
Meadowchik Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, stemelbow said: If one can't unbelieve, if you will, then how could some ancient nation dwindle and perish in unbelief? God must have lied about that. I guess it depends which idea is believed and which is unbelieved. That makes sense, right? It's not just the act of believing or not believing that matters.
mfbukowski Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, stemelbow said: If one can't unbelieve, if you will, then how could some ancient nation dwindle and perish in unbelief? God must have lied about that. Oh my. An outstanding example of confused logic. You are talking about belief in God and I am talking about belief in belief. "Unbelief" in God is itself a belief Nevermind. Edited July 10, 2020 by mfbukowski
teddyaware Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, pogi said: I could see Chad/Lori Daybell using that same line of thinking with Alex Cox. I think you are demonstrating my point by asking what I believe. Does it just boil down to what we believe? Is it ok to slaughter people so long as we really, really believe God commanded it? They are just zombies after all, right? I could see extremist Muslims using your exact same logic. Do you believe...? Should we expunge all references in the Quaran of ____? Sould we give up on the God of Islam...? For me, that it is a difficult dilemma. Why does it seem as if you’re equating the righteous prophet Nephi’s slaying of the utterly evil Laban, after truly being commanded of the living God to do so, with the dishonest, egomaniacal and adulterous Chad Daybell’s secret combination to murder the innocent so that he could have the sociopathic Lori Vallo all to himself? Again, do you believe Nephi’s testimony that he was commanded of God to slay the thieving, murderIng crime boss named Laban, or do you not believe it? If you don’t, that’s your prerogative as a moral agent. The most important question I can think of in this regard: Do you believe God himself, an exalted man, has has the right to slay the wicked when deemed necessary? Edited July 10, 2020 by teddyaware
pogi Posted July 10, 2020 Posted July 10, 2020 Here's a thought. For being so extremely hesitant to the point that he "shrunk" and said I "would that I might not slay him" - having never before shed blood of man - what possessed Nephi to kill Laban in such a gruesome fashion? He grabbed him by the hair of his head and chopping through his neck with his own sword, causing Laban' body to separate from his head and fall to the ground, leaving his decapitated head still in the hands of Nephi, dangling by his hair and dripping with blood? For being so hesitant and blood shy, and wishing that he didn't have to do it, this seems pretty extreme for a novice kill and a blood naïve Nephi. I would expect that more from a matured killer who is numb to killing and blood-shed. Why not just kneel on his neck for a couple minutes?
pogi Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, teddyaware said: Why does it seem as if you’re equating the righteous prophet Nephi’s slaying of the utterly evil Laban, after truly being commanded of the living God to do so, with the dishonest, egomaniacal and adulterous Chad Daybell’s secret combination to murder the innocent so that he could have the sociopathic Lori Vallo all to himself? It is simply another example of killing in the name of God. What about Alex and Lori? Were they not convinced they were doing God's will? Did this mindset of killing in the name of God not play a role in these deaths? Of course it did. Alex was 100% convinced. He truly believed. That's what allowed him to kill. When all you have to do is believe that God commands it, it makes killing your own children palatable somehow. Surely you see the danger this way of thinking. 23 minutes ago, teddyaware said: Again, do you believe Nephi’s testimony that he was commanded of God to slay the thieving, murderIng crime boss named Laban, or do you not believe it? If you don’t, that’s your prerogative as a moral agent. The most important question I can think of in this regard: Do you believe God himself, an exalted man, has has the right to slay the wicked when deemed necessary? Why is my personal belief so important? Does it somehow justify anything? There are other's who believe that killing American's is justified and commanded by God, because they believe. Why are my beliefs more important than theirs? Again, it all centers around belief. Edited July 11, 2020 by pogi 1
bluebell Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 19 minutes ago, pogi said: Here's a thought. For being so extremely hesitant to the point that he "shrunk" and said I "would that I might not slay him" - having never before shed blood of man - what possessed Nephi to kill Laban in such a gruesome fashion? He grabbed him by the hair of his head and chopping through his neck with his own sword, causing Laban' body to separate from his head and fall to the ground, leaving his decapitated head still in the hands of Nephi, dangling by his hair and dripping with blood? For being so hesitant and blood shy, and wishing that he didn't have to do it, this seems pretty extreme for a novice kill and a blood naïve Nephi. I would expect that more from a matured killer who is numb to killing and blood-shed. Why not just kneel on his neck for a couple minutes? That's a question to ask Nephi when we see him as there is no way for any of us to answer it. Maybe the armor that Laban had on made cutting off the head the only viable way to kill him? Who knows. 1
bluebell Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 4 hours ago, pogi said: We don't expect anyone to live contrary to their convictions. The thought makes me pale. We are about conversion not coercion. We convert convictions to be in alignment. Living the convictions of an institution before your own convictions is soul slavery and cultish. We expect people to act and not to be acted upon. We expect people to evaluate their convictions and we try to persuade them to align their convictions with ours. There is a difference. Teaching people to live their convictions is not the same as condoning all of their actions. Being true to our convictions is the heart of everything LDS. Living contrary to our convictions is the opposite of integrity. We expect people to live a life of integrity. This is engrained in primary. It is Mormonism 101: Can one live in inner peace if they are living a non-integrous life and living contrary to what they believe (or even "know") to be right, good, and true? Do we truly expect people to abandon their convictions and live in that tension as puppets to another man's convictions? No, we don't. I 100% disagree. I think we do teach people to follow their convictions, but we warn of consequences for breaking commandments. Ultimately, however, it is your conviction to measure them against other things that guides you - it is a process of self conversion. This is not the same as living contrary to your convictions - what you describe is a process of conversion. To abandon your convictions, rather than being converted, would lead to inner turmoil and moral slavery, and would extinguish the inner soul. I was in the middle of a line by line response and then I thought, you know what? It's Friday and there are other ways to spend time. I think we've both shared our opinions, let's just agree to disagree. 2
pogi Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 23 minutes ago, bluebell said: That's a question to ask Nephi when we see him as there is no way for any of us to answer it. Maybe the armor that Laban had on made cutting off the head the only viable way to kill him? Who knows. Ya, I guess it was more of a rhetorical question. Just one of those things that make you go hmmm... Perhaps there is some symbolism in it somewhere. 1
pogi Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 18 minutes ago, bluebell said: I was in the middle of a line by line response and then I thought, you know what? It's Friday and there are other ways to spend time. I think we've both shared our opinions, let's just agree to disagree. Happy Friday everyone. Be safe out there! 3
stemelbow Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Oh my. An outstanding example of confused logic. You are talking about belief in God and I am talking about belief in belief. "Unbelief" in God is itself a belief Nevermind. What was god talking about in 1 nephi? You seemed to introduce the notion that believing in something/anything applies here.
stemelbow Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I guess it depends which idea is believed and which is unbelieved. That makes sense, right? It's not just the act of believing or not believing that matters. Why would believing in the mormon ideas of what to believe in save someone from dwindling and perishing in unbelief but believing in something else does not?
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 What if the Chancellor of Germany was assassinated in 1933? Is this really so hard to figure out? 1
mfbukowski Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 2 hours ago, stemelbow said: What was god talking about in 1 nephi? You seemed to introduce the notion that believing in something/anything applies here. In the OP passage, pretend God was talking about Hitler Does that help? 1
Meadowchik Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: Why would believing in the mormon ideas of what to believe in save someone from dwindling and perishing in unbelief but believing in something else does not? I'm thinking about how this "unbelief isn't dwindling nor perishing. Its thriving and living. Belief is a bit o' a set of chains wrapped around ya. " ...your statement, can be true. I largely agree with it. I think Mormonism requires an excess of belief, but I think some belief can be good.
InCognitus Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 The consequences of a people not bringing the records of their spiritual heritage with them is documented within the Book of Mormon with what happened to the people of Zarahemla (AKA: Mulekites): Quote 17 And at the time that Mosiah discovered them, they had become exceedingly numerous. Nevertheless, they had had many wars and serious contentions, and had fallen by the sword from time to time; and their language had become corrupted; and they had brought no records with them; and they denied the being of their Creator; and Mosiah, nor the people of Mosiah, could understand them. (Omni 1:17) Either you bring the records with you or you end up like the people of Zarahemla did within a period of about 470 years. 3
stemelbow Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: In the OP passage, pretend God was talking about Hitler Does that help? Not really.
stemelbow Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 8 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I'm thinking about how this "unbelief isn't dwindling nor perishing. Its thriving and living. Belief is a bit o' a set of chains wrapped around ya. " ...your statement, can be true. I largely agree with it. I think Mormonism requires an excess of belief, but I think some belief can be good. Sure. Some belief can be.
teddyaware Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 21 hours ago, pogi said: It is simply another example of killing in the name of God. What about Alex and Lori? Were they not convinced they were doing God's will? Did this mindset of killing in the name of God not play a role in these deaths? Of course it did. Alex was 100% convinced. He truly believed. That's what allowed him to kill. When all you have to do is believe that God commands it, it makes killing your own children palatable somehow. Surely you see the danger this way of thinking. Why is my personal belief so important? Does it somehow justify anything? There are other's who believe that killing American's is justified and commanded by God, because they believe. Why are my beliefs more important than theirs? Again, it all centers around belief. Do you think there’s a possibility that the true and living God did, in actual reality, command the prophet Nephi to slay Laban?
rodheadlee Posted July 11, 2020 Posted July 11, 2020 Every one that claims God told them to kill someone and follows through will have to face God and know if it was real. It doesn't matter if it was Nephi, the Muslim extremists, or some chick in Utah. God is not going to let them skate. Their victims will have justice. 2
Meadowchik Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 9 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Every one that claims God told them to kill someone and follows through will have to face God and know if it was real. It doesn't matter if it was Nephi, the Muslim extremists, or some chick in Utah. God is not going to let them skate. Their victims will have justice. I appreciate this sentiment. As an atheist, though, without some belief in an afterlife or ultimate justice, I lean more on the prevention side. How does one avoid such pitfalls?
CV75 Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 On 7/8/2020 at 5:25 PM, pogi said: It was murder. It was justified by God, but it was murder. Just like the genocides of the Old Testament were justified by God, but it was still genocide. It would likely be prosecuted as some degree of murder under the laws of some jurisdictions today, but in Nephi's day and under the particular laws of his nation, I understand it was not considered such.
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