He Is Risen

[marineland]

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

84 – For two and a half years [the Apostles] had been upheld and inspired by Christ's 
presence. But now he was gone. They were left alone, and they seemed confused and 
helpless (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 62).

Is that three and a half years or two and a half?

Tony

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?
 

"If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil".

That doesn't seem right.  Becoming like the devil is an act, a choice, something we do.  This makes it sound like it's an automatic process unless resurrection stops it.

14 minutes ago, marineland said:

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

Depends on how we are defining divine.

Certainly not a fullness of divinity since there were qualifications he hadn't met until resurrected and exalted.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

84 – For two and a half years [the Apostles] had been upheld and inspired by Christ's 
presence. But now he was gone. They were left alone, and they seemed confused and 
helpless (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 62).

Is that three and a half years or two and a half?

Tony

Did you look at the referenced scripture? The Book of Mormon teaches clearly that without a resurrection the dead would all eventually become devils. I would suggest there is some sort of degeneration tied to being in a Telestial disembodied state that makes such a descent inevitable without redemption. It may even apply in an embodied state.

Jesus being divine preceded his birth.

Jesus did not organize the apostles at the very beginning of his ministry though some were amongst his earliest followers. Nice nitpicking though.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?

 

From the church website:  here

Quote

Redeem, Redeemed, Redemption

• See also Atone, Atonement; Death, Physical; Death, Spiritual; Fall of Adam and Eve; Jesus Christ; Salvation

To deliver, to purchase, or to ransom, such as to free a person from bondage by payment. Redemption refers to the Atonement of Jesus Christ and to deliverance from sin. Jesus’ Atonement redeems all mankind from physical death. Through His Atonement, those who have faith in Him and who repent are also redeemed from spiritual death.

There are three separate aspects of redemption through the atonement of Jesus Christ mentioned here:

1. Deliverance from sin
2. Redemption from physical death ("all mankind")
3. Redemption from spiritual death

#2, the resurrection, is completely unconditional.   So it is incorrect thinking to equate redemption from physical death (the resurrection) with becoming gods.  Redemption from spiritual death is a separate issue.

2 hours ago, marineland said:

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

Here's a quote from Jesus the Christ:  The Antemortal Godship of Christ

Quote

The Antemortal Godship of Christ

It now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the antemortal world, from the period of the solemn council in heaven, in which He was chosen to be the future Savior and Redeemer of mankind, to the time at which He was born in the flesh.

We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One.

 

[Islander]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

84 – For two and a half years [the Apostles] had been upheld and inspired by Christ's 
presence. But now he was gone. They were left alone, and they seemed confused and 
helpless (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 62).

Is that three and a half years or two and a half?

Tony

We can not disconnect verse 9 from verse 6. Jacob is "walking" the audience thru the process, beginning with physical death being the result and sin and leading to the fall of men. Without the plan of Salvation mediated Atonement, there is no salvation. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection and thus He paves the way to salvation and exaltation. Otherwise, all mortals, being fallen because of sin would have been subject to the devil, becoming like him, fallen angels without redemption and fitted for destruction. Resurrection will come to all; (“Behold, there is a time appointed that all shall come forth from the dead. Now when this time cometh no one knows; but God knoweth the time which is appointed.” Alma 40:4) some to be saved and exalted. Others to be cast out into outer darkness.

John's Gospel makes reference to a third Pass Over and that is why some believe that the ministry lasted about 3 years. But it could have been 2 1/2 years, from a calendar standpoint. There is really not a real issue there.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal increase. Is that right?

The scripture from 2 Nephi is pretty cut-and-dried, pretty clear on its face:

Quote

 

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.

9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself …

 

 

1 hour ago, marineland said:

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

Both.  Cf. 3 Nephi 12:48 and Matthew 5:48.

 

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

84 – For two and a half years [the Apostles] had been upheld and inspired by Christ's 
presence. But now he was gone. They were left alone, and they seemed confused and 
helpless (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay [2003], 62).

Is that three and a half years or two and a half?

Tony

It’s easy to see by your questions that you have very little understanding of the foundational teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I suggest you study a good book on the basic teachings of the Church, such as James E Talmage’s ‘Articles of Faith,’ and then return after you have a better grasp of some of the fundamental doctrines of the Church. Trying to do it the other way will needlessly create endless confusion.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

.............................

John's Gospel makes reference to a third Pass Over and that is why some believe that the ministry lasted about 3 years. But it could have been 2 1/2 years, from a calendar standpoint. There is really not a real issue there.

There is no way in which the four Gospels can be used to determine how long Jesus' ministry lasted.  The disagreements among the Gospels are the first sign of this impossibility.  Moreover, the Gospels are not annals written at the time of Jesus' ministry, but rather long afterward.  Finally, whatever chronology is advanced to cover His ministry must comport with the chronology in the Book of Mormon.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

.............................

Here's a quote from Jesus the Christ:  The Antemortal Godship of Christ

We used to read Talmage's Jesus the Christ as our lesson manual.  However, we now need to look into such claims with greater precision:

The time from the Divine Council in which the big decision was made, until Jesus' Ascension just before Pentecost, is collapsed in LDS theological thinking.  One can see this in the LDS endowment, if one pays attention.  Time thus becomes synchronic rather than diachronic.  As if time were standing still.  God the Son thus has full authority on Earth from the time of the Council in Heaven on through to the time when He is replaced on Earth by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (following his crucial Forty Day Ministry as a Resurrected being).  However, Talmage missed some important points:

Jesus was born without memory of his premortal existence -- he had to be tested the same as the rest of us.

The Kenosis -- Jesus deliberately emptied himself of all power and authority (Philipp 2:7).

God the Father withdrew from him on the Cross -- leaving him to suffer alone (Mk 15:34).

God the Father actually shows up personally on various occasions -- he is not an absentee landlord:  He and his son are together in the Garden, He is there at Jesus' baptism, and He is there in Joseph's First Vision.

More importantly, the titles used to described God the Father and his Son are not personal names, but descriptive titles.  The titles do not tell us who is actually present.  Take, for example, Yahweh coming to Abraham in the company of two angels, at Mamre in Gen 18.  Yahweh eats a full meal there.  Was this the unembodied Son?  Unlikely.  Jesus does eat meals in his earthly life,  and as a resurrected being.  For that one needs a body.

[longview]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no way in which the four Gospels can be used to determine how long Jesus' ministry lasted.

In several places in the scriptures are hints at 3 1/2 year ministry.  Did He observe the Feast of Tabernacles out in the desert and fasted 40 days?  Was He present at the next 4 Passover Feasts?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, longview said:

In several places in the scriptures are hints at 3 1/2 year ministry.  Did He observe the Feast of Tabernacles out in the desert and fasted 40 days?  Was He present at the next 4 Passover Feasts?

Herculean efforts have been expended trying to harmonize the 4 Gospels, and all have failed miserably. Too many contradictions and assumptions.  You are certainly welcome to match wits with the best biblical scholars in the world.  The Book of Mormon gives us an exact length of Jesus' life, and tells us which year he was born (Fall 5 BC), and when he was crucified (Spring 28 AD).  We can tie that in with the ten-year praetorship of Pontius Pilatus (26-36).  The 15th year of Tiberius and the preceding ministry of John the Baptist cannot be dated so easily.  See the discussion at

 

[longview]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Book of Mormon gives us an exact length of Jesus' life, and tells us which year he was born (Fall 5 BC), and when he was crucified (Spring 28 AD).

Thank you for the references.

How was it determined that Jesus was born in the Fall?  At the time Jesus was born there were shepherds watching over their flocks.  They were privileged to receive the visitation of angels announcing His birth.  Some say that the flocks were lambs prepared for the Passover sacrifices.  The shepherds may have been temple priests.  Thus indicating Jesus was born at the time of the Passover.

In the Book of Mormon their new calendar system was based on the Sign of the Birth of Christ.  First day of the first month was their "Christmas Day".  At the time of the Crucifixion, it was also within 3 days of the first day of the first month of this calendar system.  It is obvious that Jesus was crucified at the time of Passover.  Why should we not conclude that Christ was born at Passover time?

[theplains]

19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Book of Mormon teaches clearly that without a resurrection the dead would all eventually become devils.

The Book of Mormon also teaches that mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, otherwise you will
reside in the devil's kingdom.

Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech 
of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after 
this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not 
improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there 
can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that 
same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, 
that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For 
behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, 
ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, 
and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

Mosiah 2:38-39 - "Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an 
enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively 
sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the 
Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an 
unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto 
you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a 
never-ending torment."

Jim

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Thank you for the references.

How was it determined that Jesus was born in the Fall?  At the time Jesus was born there were shepherds watching over their flocks.  They were privileged to receive the visitation of angels announcing His birth.  Some say that the flocks were lambs prepared for the Passover sacrifices.  The shepherds may have been temple priests.  Thus indicating Jesus was born at the time of the Passover.

Traditionally, the shepherds were young male members of the priest families. They typically were not old enough to become temple priests. They were responsible for making sure the lambs that were raised had no blemishes. The shepherds would also be out in the fields in the fall. To this day local shepherds bring their flocks in during the fall by Oct or Nov. So the traditional Christmas date is plainly wrong. It was adopted by the Catholic Church purely as a means to try to supercede the Saturnalia and win over the Roman pagans. The Lord established the Hebrew feasts for a purpose. The purpose of the Passover was manifested in Christ.  The feast of the Trumpets, so called, is to announce the coming of the king. That was in the fall. It announced the coming of our True King. The new star leading the wise men into Bethlehem was a planetary convergence which reoccurred about 9 months(iirc) after the first when Yeshua was just a toddler. Note that it was not some moving star, because they went into Jerusalem to inquire. However, when they came up the road into Bethlehem the Jupiter-Venus convergence was immediately "over" the town. So the story goes that it led them to where Yeshua lay. 

1 hour ago, longview said:

In the Book of Mormon their new calendar system was based on the Sign of the Birth of Christ.  First day of the first month was their "Christmas Day".  At the time of the Crucifixion, it was also within 3 days of the first day of the first month of this calendar system.  It is obvious that Jesus was crucified at the time of Passover.  Why should we not conclude that Christ was born at Passover time?

Can you provide a scriptural reference for the birth of Christ being in the "first month"? The sign of His death was in the first month according to 3 Nephi 8:5. That was the Hebrew first month of the Mosaic calendar. The Feast of the Trumpets happened to be in the first month of the calendar year adopted in the Babylonian diaspora. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

The Book of Mormon also teaches that mortal life is the time to prepare to meet God, otherwise you will
reside in the devil's kingdom.

Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech 
of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after 
this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not 
improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there 
can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that 
same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, 
that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For 
behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, 
ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, 
and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

Mosiah 2:38-39 - "Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an 
enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively 
sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the 
Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an 
unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto 
you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a 
never-ending torment."

Jim

Those verses are true. The time for repentance is now. If we do not repent, then Satan holds power over us in the "Spirit World," which is the next estate for most of us. This is the final state of the wicked unless and until they repent at which point they are no longer "wicked." If they never repent, they become sons of Perdition. 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, longview said:

...........................................

How was it determined that Jesus was born in the Fall?  At the time Jesus was born there were shepherds watching over their flocks.  They were privileged to receive the visitation of angels announcing His birth.  Some say that the flocks were lambs prepared for the Passover sacrifices.  The shepherds may have been temple priests.  Thus indicating Jesus was born at the time of the Passover.

In the Book of Mormon their new calendar system was based on the Sign of the Birth of Christ.  First day of the first month was their "Christmas Day".  At the time of the Crucifixion, it was also within 3 days of the first day of the first month of this calendar system.  It is obvious that Jesus was crucified at the time of Passover.  Why should we not conclude that Christ was born at Passover time?

I discussed all that on this board in April, and I cited that discussion for you.  The precise sequence of dates in BofM annals can be extracted from three specific nodes:  (1) the 600 years from the time Lehi left Jerusalem, (2) the birth announcement, and (3) the exact length of life of Jesus.  Since we actually know when the first year of King Zedekiah began, and we know when Herod the Great died, there is no difficulty in knowing when Jesus was born (1 Tishri 5 BC).  Since he was crucified at a Passover, it is easy to back date based on his exact length of life given in the BofM.  No other system works, because everything else has been tried and failed.

[longview]

5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Can you provide a scriptural reference for the birth of Christ being in the "first month"? The sign of His death was in the first month according to 3 Nephi 8:5. That was the Hebrew first month of the Mosaic calendar. The Feast of the Trumpets happened to be in the first month of the calendar year adopted in the Babylonian diaspora. 

The closest thing I could find is in 3 Nephi 2:

6 And six hundred and nine years had passed away since Lehi left Jerusalem.
7 And nine years had passed away from the time when the sign was given, which was spoken of by the prophets, that Christ should come into the world.
8 Now the Nephites began to reckon their time from this period when the sign was given, or from the coming of Christ; therefore, nine years had passed away.

I believe that exactly 600 years passed between the time Lehi's family escaped from Jerusalem and the birth of Christ.  Don Bradley in his book "The Lost 116 Pages" believes that Lehi exodus occurred during the Passover (see pages 127-8).  Remember Lehi left with the prompting of the Lord.

So verses 6 and 7 seem to synchronize the timing of Lehi exodus and the birth of Christ.  For several years now, I have felt it to be a reasonable assumption that the "reckoning" was based on the actual day that the sign was given.  Thus establishing their new calendar to begin the first day of the first month on that event.

I don't know if the Nephites were still using the Mosaic Law calendar and simply noted the date on the Jewish calendar.  My thinking it was on or close to Nisan 14.

[Islander]

On 5/30/2020 at 7:40 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no way in which the four Gospels can be used to determine how long Jesus' ministry lasted.  The disagreements among the Gospels are the first sign of this impossibility.  Moreover, the Gospels are not annals written at the time of Jesus' ministry, but rather long afterward.  Finally, whatever chronology is advanced to cover His ministry must comport with the chronology in the Book of Mormon.

The Gospels are reliable documents, written by eye witnesses during the life of these eye witnesses. It is true that there is no chronology, per se, but the recounting of events and references to peoples that can be corroborated by other extant records makes these accounts trustworthy in terms of the time line. Granted, there is absolutely no way to know if Jesus' ministry was 2 1/2 years or 3. It makes no real difference , at the end. Although a 3 year ministry is a reasonable assumption (see here: )

The BoM is silent in that regard. So, I am not sure to what you are referring. 

Ref. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/09/a-chronology-of-the-life-of-christ?lang=eng

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, Islander said:

The Gospels are reliable documents, written by eye witnesses during the life of these eye witnesses. It is true that there is no chronology, per se, but the recounting of events and references to peoples that can be corroborated by other extant records makes these accounts trustworthy in terms of the time line. Granted, there is absolutely no way to know if Jesus' ministry was 2 1/2 years or 3...

.............................................................................

The BoM is silent in that regard. So, I am not sure to what you are referring. 

Ref. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/09/a-chronology-of-the-life-of-christ?lang=eng

We do not actually know who wrote each of the Gospels, nor do we know how dependable their sources were.  Whether any of the compilers had ever even seen Jesus is not known.  We do know they were all written rather late, and that they do represent the faith community from which they come.  None of them is a work of professional historiography, but rather works of devotion and piety.  Scholars do believe that a sayings gospel like the Gospel of Thomas was in circulation rather early, and was used by the Gospel writers.  The earliest written documents in the NT are the letters of Paul.

You appear to be completely unfamiliar with the chronology of the BofM.  It is anything but silent.

[Ahab]

On 5/30/2020 at 11:37 AM, marineland said:

This is from Lesson 20 (Religion 250 manual).

82 – Explain that the Resurrection redeems us not only from physical death but also 
from spiritual death. If there were no resurrection, then all people would eventually 
become like the devil (see 2 Nephi 9:6–9).

I think that statement is incorrect because the resurrection does not redeem those 
who don’t become gods. They suffer spiritual death because they don’t have eternal 
increase. Is that right?

The resurrection redeems everyone from physical death. Death is a separation... physical death a separation of a spirit from it's body, spiritual death a separation of a spirit from the Spirit of God.

 

On 5/30/2020 at 11:37 AM, marineland said:

83 – If Jesus was in fact literally resurrected, it necessarily follows that He is 
a divine being. No mere mortal has the power in himself to come to life again after 
dying. Because He was resurrected, Jesus cannot have been only a carpenter, a 
teacher, a rabbi, or a prophet. Because He was resurrected, Jesus had to have been 
a God, even the Only Begotten Son of the Father.

Does Jesus being divine follow or precede his resurrection? 

Both. The lesson manual is not very clear here. Jesus was able to resurrect himself because God, our/his Father, gave him the power to do that and he was qualified to use it, because Jesus never committed a sin.

When we sin we lose righteous power, power to do the will of our Father in heaven, which is why we need a Savior to give or restore that power to us and to qualify us to use that power. 

It's like becoming clean again after we have gotten ourselves dirty, when we can't clean ourselves all by ourselves.  We need someone who is clean to make us clean.  Think of a clean room with clean suits in a medical facility.

I mean really, truly, clean.

 

[stemelbow]

On 5/30/2020 at 1:48 PM, The Nehor said:

Did you look at the referenced scripture? The Book of Mormon teaches clearly that without a resurrection the dead would all eventually become devils. I would suggest there is some sort of degeneration tied to being in a Telestial disembodied state that makes such a descent inevitable without redemption. It may even apply in an embodied state.

Jesus being divine preceded his birth.

Jesus did not organize the apostles at the very beginning of his ministry though some were amongst his earliest followers. Nice nitpicking though.

I just realized that the devil likely lived on the planet with the Father, before this world was.  With all this talk about people becoming devils.  I"m guessing the Father was the Stake President and kicked the devil out of church at some point for supporting black ordinations or same sex marriage or something.  hmm...no wonder they are at such odds.  They were likely neighbors touching back yards and the devil's apple tree probably hung over the fence dropping some apples once in a while to stew and rot In Elohim's grass.  Or maybe it was a bit more tense than that.  Maybe the devil's dog harrassed Elohim's cat, or bit his kid--oh wait is that Jesus?  no couldn't be.  Then who?  Maybe a God of a whole other world right now, in a galaxy far away.  

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I just realized that the devil likely lived on the planet with the Father, before this world was.  With all this talk about people becoming devils.  I"m guessing the Father was the Stake President and kicked the devil out of church at some point for supporting black ordinations or same sex marriage or something.  hmm...no wonder they are at such odds.  They were likely neighbors touching back yards and the devil's apple tree probably hung over the fence dropping some apples once in a while to stew and rot In Elohim's grass.  Or maybe it was a bit more tense than that.  Maybe the devil's dog harrassed Elohim's cat, or bit his kid--oh wait is that Jesus?  no couldn't be.  Then who?  Maybe a God of a whole other world right now, in a galaxy far away.  

I told you you were smoking too much of that stuff.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I told you you were smoking too much of that stuff.

Good point, back when Joseph was coming up with some of these stories it wasn't so crazy sounding.  Today though, yep.  Crazy.  Isn't it time we move past religion and create a better world?  These crazy nut jobby ideas, defended to death are causing too much nuttiness in our enlightened world.  

[Ahab]

10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Good point, back when Joseph was coming up with some of these stories it wasn't so crazy sounding.  Today though, yep.  Crazy.  Isn't it time we move past religion and create a better world?  These crazy nut jobby ideas, defended to death are causing too much nuttiness in our enlightened world.  

Joseph's stories were better than yours, and they are still true.  I think the world would benefit from more of the same quality stories.

The plan of salvation is reasonable, yes?  We all need someone to save us.

[stemelbow]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Joseph's stories were better than yours, and they are still true.  I think the world would benefit from more of the same quality stories.

The plan of salvation is reasonable, yes?  We all need someone to save us.

There's nothing reasonable about it.  You must suspend reason in order to adopt it or anything like it.   It used to be the skies thundered because God was mad at something.  God, the guy who was going to save people who died.  No one knew what happened after death so they made it up so they could tell stories about that which they didn't know.  you know, to come up with crazy stories--crazy in our day anyway.