marineland Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 This is from Lesson 18 (Religion 250 manual). 75 - However, what Jesus' immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. When Jesus died, the temple veil tore. What did this veil-tearing signify about the Jerusalem temple? 76 – The Savior's words to the malefactor are misunderstood by many Christians to mean that a person can repent of serious sins at the very end of his or her life. However, the scriptures teach that we should not procrastinate our repentance. Did the thief who acknowledged Christ on the cross enter paradise or a place of suffering with the rebellious spirits? 77 – What was the purpose of the Savior's ministry in the spirit world? (Students should be able to articulate the following truth: The Savior provided a way for all of God's children to hear the gospel and receive a fulness of joy.) Is this an accurate statement when you consider all those in the spirit world do not receive a fulness of joy (since only the exalted beings get a fulness of joy)? Tony
pogi Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, marineland said: 77 – What was the purpose of the Savior's ministry in the spirit world? (Students should be able to articulate the following truth: The Savior provided a way for all of God's children to hear the gospel and receive a fulness of joy.) Is this an accurate statement when you consider all those in the spirit world do not receive a fulness of joy (since only the exalted beings get a fulness of joy)? Tony "Providing a way" is not the same as guaranteeing a fullness of joy for all regardless of how they use their agency. A way is provided for all to 1) "hear the gospel" and 2) "receive a fulness of joy". There is no question that #1 will be fulfilled for all. There is no question that the Savior "provided a way" to fulfill #2 for all who accept the way. 3
bluebell Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 18 (Religion 250 manual). 75 - However, what Jesus' immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. When Jesus died, the temple veil tore. What did this veil-tearing signify about the Jerusalem temple? According to Talmage in Jesus the Christ, it was symbolic of the "rending of Judaism, the consummation of the Mosaic Dispensation, and the inauguration of Christianity under Apostolic administration." I'm sure there are other interpretations as well. Quote 76 – The Savior's words to the malefactor are misunderstood by many Christians to mean that a person can repent of serious sins at the very end of his or her life. However, the scriptures teach that we should not procrastinate our repentance. Did the thief who acknowledged Christ on the cross enter paradise or a place of suffering with the rebellious spirits? Also from Jesus the Christ: "The spirit of Jesus and the spirit of the repentant thief left their crucified bodies and went to the same place in the realm of the departed.... Paradise is a place where dwell the righteous and repentant spirits between bodily death and resurrection." Quote 77 – What was the purpose of the Savior's ministry in the spirit world? (Students should be able to articulate the following truth: The Savior provided a way for all of God's children to hear the gospel and receive a fulness of joy.) Is this an accurate statement when you consider all those in the spirit world do not receive a fulness of joy (since only the exalted beings get a fulness of joy)? I think it's accurate, as it teaches that Jesus provided a way for all to have a fulness of joy and not a guarantee that all would have it. Ultimately, whether they have it or not is completely up to them. Edited May 20, 2020 by bluebell 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 37 minutes ago, marineland said: .................................... Is this an accurate statement when you consider all those in the spirit world do not receive a fulness of joy (since only the exalted beings get a fulness of joy)?............ Surely those who find themselves in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms also receive a fulness of joy -- in accordance with their capacity to receive. The same would apply to ministering angels in the Celestial Kingdom, as well as to exalted beings. These are all kingdoms of glory, ruled over by the Holy Ghost (Telestial), the Son (Terrestrial), and the Father (Celestial). Hard to imagine any of them not being filled with joy. In the temple, is the doorkeeper not just as important as the high priest? We need to disabuse ourselves of notions of rank in the House of the Lord. Otherwise, we will be speaking sarcastically, "Aren't we special!" Just like the Church Lady: 2
JAHS Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 51 minutes ago, marineland said: 75 - However, what Jesus' immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. When Jesus died, the temple veil tore. What did this veil-tearing signify about the Jerusalem temple? When the veil of the temple was “rent in twain” (torn in two) at the death of Jesus Christ (Matthew 27:51), it was a dramatic symbol that the Savior had passed through the veil of death and would shortly enter into the presence of God the Father. 55 minutes ago, marineland said: 76 – The Savior's words to the malefactor are misunderstood by many Christians to mean that a person can repent of serious sins at the very end of his or her life. However, the scriptures teach that we should not procrastinate our repentance. Did the thief who acknowledged Christ on the cross enter paradise or a place of suffering with the rebellious spirits? All who die are returned to the Spirit world and then those that are righteous go to Paradise and the wicked or those who have not heard the gospel yet go to Spirit prison where they will be taught the gospel. Whether Paradise and spirit prison are two separate places or perhaps just two separate states of mind is not really known. 1
Islander Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, marineland said: This is from Lesson 18 (Religion 250 manual). 75 - However, what Jesus' immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. When Jesus died, the temple veil tore. What did this veil-tearing signify about the Jerusalem temple? 76 – The Savior's words to the malefactor are misunderstood by many Christians to mean that a person can repent of serious sins at the very end of his or her life. However, the scriptures teach that we should not procrastinate our repentance. Did the thief who acknowledged Christ on the cross enter paradise or a place of suffering with the rebellious spirits? 77 – What was the purpose of the Savior's ministry in the spirit world? (Students should be able to articulate the following truth: The Savior provided a way for all of God's children to hear the gospel and receive a fulness of joy.) Is this an accurate statement when you consider all those in the spirit world do not receive a fulness of joy (since only the exalted beings get a fulness of joy)? Tony The veil of the temple was woven from blue, purple, crimson and white thread, and embroidered with cherubim (2 Chron.3.14); the veil in the tabernacle had been similar. It shielded from view the ark and the cherubim or, in the temple, the ark and the chariot throne. We are told that only the high priest entered the holy of holies, once a year on the Day of Atonement. After the crucifixion and resurrection, no longer a (human) High Priest is required to make a sacrifice for the nation Israel for Christ has become the ONLY mediator and the Lamb of God for all mankind. Now we have a merciful high Priest in Christ to whom we have direct, personal access to intercede for us before the Father and extend the grace and mercy of God directly to His children. The old rituals, the secrecy and fear associated with the Temple was over. We know that after the second Jewish revol,t Judaism, as they knew it really ended. A new dispensation was open. But that is rather the outcome. The meaning is rather linear and tangible, rather the obvious to all at that time; the mysteries of the God of their fathers has been "unveiled", revealed for all to see. "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Heb. 4:15-16 The thief on the cross next to Christ had a change of heart and expressed repentance. It is unknown to us from the account that he had previous knowledge of whom Jesus was. The Lord acknowledged that and stated that he would enter paradise. God is a sovereign God and a merciful God. Those that know the Gospel and have received it are encouraged that repent now. But for those that had no such opportunity, the Lord will be the judge of the true intent of their hart, no matter when and how they repent and come onto Him. "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy". Exo. 33:19 Far be it from us to speculate or try to inject our theology into whom, why and when a person can or can't repent to receive forgiveness. That is beyond us. "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men" D&C 64:10
OGHoosier Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 50 minutes ago, marineland said: 75 - However, what Jesus' immortal spirit did after His death and before His Resurrection is a mystery to all but the Latter-day Saints. And the significance of what He did during those hours provides the doctrinal foundation for building temples across the earth. When Jesus died, the temple veil tore. What did this veil-tearing signify about the Jerusalem temple? 21 minutes ago, bluebell said: According to Talmage in Jesus the Christ, it was symbolic of the "rending of Judaism, the consummation of the Mosaic Dispensation, and the inauguration of Christianity under Apostolic administration." I'm sure there are other interpretations as well. I'm inclined to agree with bluebell and Talmage's eloquent presentation, and I'd like to elaborate on it if I can. The rending of the temple veil is singularly intriguing and meaningful to me, out of all the concurrent events going on on that most important of days, the Day of the ultimate Atonement. I'm going to include some references to Robert Boylan, who has some blog pieces on the subject. The veil of the temple, standing in between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies, could only be passed through by the High Priest in the performance of his ritual duty as the atoning representative of the Jewish people. He would pass through it on the Day of Atonement to sprinkle the blood of the offering and make symbolic atonement for the sins of all Israel. The high priest thus stood as the mediator between Israel and their God, bridging the empyrean and the terrestrial. It was he who passed into the presence of God (symbolically represented by the mercy seat - the divine throne inside the Holy of Holies) to make atonement for the sins of collective Israel. Jesus Christ is called in the Epistle to the Hebrews "the Apostle and High Priest of our profession" (Hebrews 3:1) and elsewhere "the high priest of good things to come" (Hebrews 9:11). The rationale for according Him the title of high priest is illustrated by the entire chapter of Hebrews 9, which I recommend. When He died on the cross, Christ passed through the veil into the presence of God as the great sacrificial victim, fulfilling all the foreshadowing of sacrificial lambs and sacrificing priests alike. The veil of the Temple was rent because the Great High Priest had passed through it, once and for all, bearing the atonement for Israel and the whole world. No longer was the Aaronic high priest the symbol and vessel of sacramental mediation. The true High Priest had taken that mantle upon Himself. The rending of the veil thus can be taken to symbolize several things. A) The Temple in Jerusalem was no longer authoritative. Robert Boylan found some interesting notes from the Jewish Talmud, ironically, which testify to that. The rending of the veil threw the Holy of Holies, the presence of God, open to the eyes of all who entered into the Holy Place. The Temple was no longer the site of atonement; that honor fled to Gethsemane, Calvary, all the footsteps in between, and the tomb of the Resurrection. The ordinances carried out in the Temple would no longer carry divine sanction. B) Matthew and Mark are insistent that the veil was "rent in twain from the top to the bottom", with some early texts insisting that that means it was torn into two parts. This parallels Elisha's rending of his coat at the Assumption of Elijah. Jewish law held that the coat could be rent in two, never to be resewed, under certain conditions, including but not limited to the receipt of awful news, blasphemy, the death of parents or teachers, and the destruction of the Temple. The rending of the veil could thus be construed as an act of mourning for a) the murder and sufferings of Christ, the Son of God, and b) the dispossession and oncoming total destruction of the Temple, which Christ prophesied. More comprehensive details here. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 The Savior Ministered in the Spirit World That is the title given us by @marinelandThat is a special ministry akin to what we do in God's holy temples, but it is also something that the Resurrected Lord continued to do during his Forty Day Ministry, https://web.archive.org/web/20190925143111/http:/fortydayministry.com/
mfbukowski Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 12 hours ago, OGHoosier said: I'm inclined to agree with bluebell and Talmage's eloquent presentation, and I'd like to elaborate on it if I can. The rending of the temple veil is singularly intriguing and meaningful to me, out of all the concurrent events going on on that most important of days, the Day of the ultimate Atonement. I'm going to include some references to Robert Boylan, who has some blog pieces on the subject. The veil of the temple, standing in between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies, could only be passed through by the High Priest in the performance of his ritual duty as the atoning representative of the Jewish people. He would pass through it on the Day of Atonement to sprinkle the blood of the offering and make symbolic atonement for the sins of all Israel. The high priest thus stood as the mediator between Israel and their God, bridging the empyrean and the terrestrial. It was he who passed into the presence of God (symbolically represented by the mercy seat - the divine throne inside the Holy of Holies) to make atonement for the sins of collective Israel. Jesus Christ is called in the Epistle to the Hebrews "the Apostle and High Priest of our profession" (Hebrews 3:1) and elsewhere "the high priest of good things to come" (Hebrews 9:11). The rationale for according Him the title of high priest is illustrated by the entire chapter of Hebrews 9, which I recommend. When He died on the cross, Christ passed through the veil into the presence of God as the great sacrificial victim, fulfilling all the foreshadowing of sacrificial lambs and sacrificing priests alike. The veil of the Temple was rent because the Great High Priest had passed through it, once and for all, bearing the atonement for Israel and the whole world. No longer was the Aaronic high priest the symbol and vessel of sacramental mediation. The true High Priest had taken that mantle upon Himself. The rending of the veil thus can be taken to symbolize several things. A) The Temple in Jerusalem was no longer authoritative. Robert Boylan found some interesting notes from the Jewish Talmud, ironically, which testify to that. The rending of the veil threw the Holy of Holies, the presence of God, open to the eyes of all who entered into the Holy Place. The Temple was no longer the site of atonement; that honor fled to Gethsemane, Calvary, all the footsteps in between, and the tomb of the Resurrection. The ordinances carried out in the Temple would no longer carry divine sanction. B) Matthew and Mark are insistent that the veil was "rent in twain from the top to the bottom", with some early texts insisting that that means it was torn into two parts. This parallels Elisha's rending of his coat at the Assumption of Elijah. Jewish law held that the coat could be rent in two, never to be resewed, under certain conditions, including but not limited to the receipt of awful news, blasphemy, the death of parents or teachers, and the destruction of the Temple. The rending of the veil could thus be construed as an act of mourning for a) the murder and sufferings of Christ, the Son of God, and b) the dispossession and oncoming total destruction of the Temple, which Christ prophesied. More comprehensive details here. To reach the Celestial Kingdom we must go THROUGH Christ. Heb 10:18 : "" 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; "" Temple workers are trained to never touch the veil except as necessary during an ordinance. It is to surround and brush the body as one comes through. 2
OGHoosier Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: To reach the Celestial Kingdom we must go THROUGH Christ. Heb 10:18 : "" 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; "" Temple workers are trained to never touch the veil except as necessary during an ordinance. It is to surround and brush the body as one comes through. Interesting. I was trained as a veil worker but never thought about it in that light. Thank you. 1
theplains Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 On 5/20/2020 at 2:34 PM, Robert F. Smith said: Surely those who find themselves in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms also receive a fulness of joy -- in accordance with their capacity to receive This is clarified in Gospel Principles (from the 1997 version😞 - If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received. - At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way. - We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy. - We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy. - Blessings of Exaltation: They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 53 minutes ago, theplains said: This is clarified in Gospel Principles (from the 1997 version😞 - If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received. - At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way. - We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy. - We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy. - Blessings of Exaltation: They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy. Sounds like false doctrine to me.
longview Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 On 5/20/2020 at 1:26 PM, OGHoosier said: The rending of the veil thus can be taken to symbolize several things. A) The Temple in Jerusalem was no longer authoritative. It seems to me that Old Testament Temples were organized/structured for performing ordinances of the Mosaic Law. When Jesus died on the cross (He actually yielded His Spirit into His Father's Hands), then the rending of the veil symbolized the tearing of His Flesh and also signaled that no more will the Aaronic High Priest need to perform the annual ritual through the Holy of Holies. In the Americas, temples were operated by prophets having the Melchizedek Priesthood. Because neither the Lehites nor the Mulekites brought Levite priests with them. Of course, Latter Day temples are now operating on the Higher Law of Christ.
Recommended Posts