Jump to content

What Will Those Who Qualify Only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for Eternity?


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I picture those that go to the CK likened unto those that are the usual 10 people that are stalwart in each ward and carrying the burden of holding the hard callings and they cycle through them all the time. Well, it happened in my ward anyway. 

I expect 99% of all the people on this planet to be in the Celestial Kingdom, whether as gods or ministering angels.  Our God is a loving and forgiving God, not a demanding and rigid martinet like Satan.  Our God refuses to interfere with free agency, and knows that His plan rests on an infinite atonement -- which Satan wanted no part of, coward that he is.  Our Father wants to bring everyone home, and His Son made that possible.  If we do our part in getting those temples built and ready for the Millennium, there will someday be a big celebration when we can all be back together, just as we were in the beginning.  But then stronger than ever.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, theplains said:

I see that, but there is nothing about baptisms or other ordinances being performed in the spirit world.
Also, it is Jesus preaching - not other people being sent to preach.

I'm borrowing this passage from gotquestions.org

What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different
interpretations put forward. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized
on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring
to a pagan custom (notice he uses "they," not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian
church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not
approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?


 

I hope my Evangelical friends enjoy themselves believing that their God of perfect mercy and justice is going to consign the majority of the human race, whom he supposedly loves with a perfect infinite and eternal love, to an endless hell of unimaginable suffering, anguish and unremitting pain, because, in spite of his much vaunted intelligence, wisdom, love and perfection in all things,  he somehow couldn’t figure out a better and more compassionate way to design a plan of salvation. What Latter-Day Saint in their right mind would want to abandon the perfectly wise, loving and compassionate plan of salvation presented in their scriptures, and be happy to replace it  with a plan of salvation of a supposedly loving God who is inexplicably able to indifferently stand aloof while his beloved children are exposed to never ending torture of maximum degree? What wise and loving purpose does this cruelty and madness serve? You’d think that after a million years a being of true love would say, “IT’S ENOUGH!” 

Edited by teddyaware
  • Like 2
Link to post

What are they going to be doing?

Living.

As for the telestial kingdom, whatever you are doing now, since we're in it right now.

Actually this planet is composed of beings in several states, including all three "kingdoms". And really there aren't just three, but "many mansions". The learning/meme device of the three kingdoms is just a primer to help us understand our choices and the consequences they have on our bodies and experiences. Each person carries their "kingdom" with them.

I personally identify that I am already in the celestial kingdom. Not by any perfection or merit of mine, of course, or that I am at the completion of any potential of myself as a being, but simply because there is no place I'd rather be than the here and now. I'm not sure what prize I think I'm going to be winning at another place and time that would exceed the opportunity and my desire to be of service (although I am certainly weak at such) right where I'm at.  If there were any celestial kingdom that took me away from this adventure, service, delight of a world like this, I would say, "Could you just send me back?" So maybe I already did get sent back. Ergo, this IS my celestial kingdom because I don't want any other, except of course to keep becoming clean and kind and free and etc. I AM THAT I AM.

  • Like 2
Link to post
17 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

What are they going to be doing?

Living.

As for the telestial kingdom, whatever you are doing now, since we're in it right now.

Actually this planet is composed of beings in several states, including all three "kingdoms". And really there aren't just three, but "many mansions". The learning/meme device of the three kingdoms is just a primer to help us understand our choices and the consequences they have on our bodies and experiences. Each person carries their "kingdom" with them.

I personally identify that I am already in the celestial kingdom. Not by any perfection or merit of mine, of course, or that I am at the completion of any potential of myself as a being, but simply because there is no place I'd rather be than the here and now. I'm not sure what prize I think I'm going to be winning at another place and time that would exceed the opportunity and my desire to be of service (although I am certainly weak at such) right where I'm at.  If there were any celestial kingdom that took me away from this adventure, service, delight of a world like this, I would say, "Could you just send me back?" So maybe I already did get sent back. Ergo, this IS my celestial kingdom because I don't want any other, except of course to keep becoming clean and kind and free and etc. I AM THAT I AM.

Highly unlikely that life in the post-resurrection Telestial Kingdom of glory is going to be that much like life on this miserable, fallen pre-resurrection telestial earth.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; (D&C 76

Link to post
3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I hope my Evangelical friends enjoy themselves believing that their God of perfect mercy and justice is going to consign the majority of the human race, whom he supposedly loves with a perfect infinite and eternal love, to an endless hell of unimaginable suffering, anguish and unremitting pain, because, in spite of his much vaunted intelligence, wisdom, love and perfection in all things,  he somehow couldn’t figure out a better and more compassionate way to design a plan of salvation. What Latter-Day Saint in their right mind would want to abandon the perfectly wise, loving and compassionate plan of salvation presented in their scriptures, and be happy to replace it  with a plan of salvation of a supposedly loving God who is inexplicably able to indifferently stand aloof while his beloved children are exposed to never ending torture of maximum degree? What wise and loving purpose does this cruelty and madness serve? You’d think that after a million years a being of true love would say, “IT’S ENOUGH!” 

I believe that all people are free to believe or reject Christ's atonement and to believe or disbelieve in the existence
of only one God and that we cannot become Gods of our own worlds some day where we will be worshipped. As
for those who have not received the gospel yet, I believe God will judge them on the knowledge that they had of
Him.

Do you believe Heavenly Father will send one-third of all his spirit children to Outer Darkness (the lake of fire
where the beast and false prophet are) because they made a choice to follow Lucifer's plan instead of Jesus'
plan when they did not know which plan was good and which plan was evil before they made that choice?
Since you don't know what plan is evil or good, you would also fight if you believed others chose an evil plan
(especially if your Father was viewed as choosing that evil plan too).

Jesus said "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto
life, and few there be that find it."

'Many' is a majority when compared to 'few'

Link to post
5 hours ago, theplains said:

I'm borrowing this passage from gotquestions.org

What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different
interpretations put forward. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized
on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring
to a pagan custom (notice he uses "they," not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian
church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not
approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place
?

I've always found the above explanation to be logically unsound to Paul's argument (idiotic really, in my opinion).   Why would anyone use a false pagan practice to justify belief in a true Christian principle?  Think about it honestly, and read it the way the explanation suggests and see if it would be a convincing argument to you:

"Else what shall [the corrupt PAGANS] do which [practice the false ordinance of baptizing for the dead], if the dead rise not at all?  why are they then [practicing the false ordinance of baptizing for the dead]?"

Or look at it another way.  Remember the "Heaven's Gate" cult from 1997?    Let's read it this way:

"Else what shall [the Heaven's Gate cult] do which [practice mass suicide for the dead], if the dead rise not at all?  why are they then [practicing mass suicide]?"

How would you react to such an argument?  Would it make you want to puke, or would this automatically persuaded you to believe in the Christian resurrection?  After all, if the pagans or the Heaven's Gate people believe in an afterlife, why not you too?   And what guarantee would you have that the pagans would have any concept of a Christian resurrection made possible through the atonement, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?  Why would Paul even try to make such a connection?   

The explanation above concludes with this question:  Paul "merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?"  Pagans have all kinds of customs that may not have anything to do with true Christian principles (like the resurrection).  Why do any of the pagan customs exist?  Is it because they are all related to true Christian principles like the resurrection?  Do you honestly think this would be a logical argument for Paul to make?

As for the "they" not "we" argument, that's equally unsound given the application of the practice and the context.  Even today, not all members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the opportunity to participate in baptisms for the dead.  It makes total sense to say "they" who are baptized for the dead.  So why would anyone assume that all of the early Christians had that opportunity?   Paul even uses "they" in application to some Christians within the same chapter (1 Corinthians 15) in verse 23:

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."   

There is simply no justification to exclude Christians from this practice by Paul using the Greek equivalent of the word "they" in application to them.

Link to post
3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

which surpasses all understanding

I do experience that now; my joy and gratitude for what is given and before me. No one has to die to have this gift of how they see their own life and the world.

  • Like 2
Link to post
On 5/7/2020 at 10:17 PM, Kafiristan said:

All,

Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

I don’t even know what those in Celestial Kingdom will be doing. 

Link to post

A priest at St Rose of Lima in Clearfield, Utah had an interesting description of who could accept what in the afterlife.

I did not like his character (very uncharitable, imo), but the comment was truly remarkable, at least to me.

He believed that a person would be able to accept what he could consume of God's love and wisdom, using the analogies of a thimble full, a cup full, an ocean full.

His challenge to his parishioners I was told to enlarge one's willingness to consume what God would give you.

  • Like 2
Link to post
14 hours ago, Maidservant said:

What are they going to be doing?

Living.

As for the telestial kingdom, whatever you are doing now, since we're in it right now.

Actually this planet is composed of beings in several states, including all three "kingdoms". And really there aren't just three, but "many mansions". The learning/meme device of the three kingdoms is just a primer to help us understand our choices and the consequences they have on our bodies and experiences. Each person carries their "kingdom" with them.

I personally identify that I am already in the celestial kingdom. Not by any perfection or merit of mine, of course, or that I am at the completion of any potential of myself as a being, but simply because there is no place I'd rather be than the here and now. I'm not sure what prize I think I'm going to be winning at another place and time that would exceed the opportunity and my desire to be of service (although I am certainly weak at such) right where I'm at.  If there were any celestial kingdom that took me away from this adventure, service, delight of a world like this, I would say, "Could you just send me back?" So maybe I already did get sent back. Ergo, this IS my celestial kingdom because I don't want any other, except of course to keep becoming clean and kind and free and etc. I AM THAT I AM.

I can only imagine what it is like to be content here let alone happy.

Link to post
14 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I do experience that now; my joy and gratitude for what is given and before me. No one has to die to have this gift of how they see their own life and the world.

So are you denying that the glory of the post-resurrection Telestial Kingdom is so grand, wonderful and glorious that understanding what it’s like there is beyond the ability of mortal human beings to comprehend?

That glory granted the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom of glory is called telestial glory. In the infinite mercy of a beneficent Father it surpasses all mortal understanding. (Bruce R McConkie)

Link to post
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe that all people are free to believe or reject Christ's atonement and to believe or disbelieve in the existence
of only one God and that we cannot become Gods of our own worlds some day where we will be worshipped. As
for those who have not received the gospel yet, I believe God will judge them on the knowledge that they had of
Him.

Do you believe Heavenly Father will send one-third of all his spirit children to Outer Darkness (the lake of fire
where the beast and false prophet are) because they made a choice to follow Lucifer's plan instead of Jesus'
plan when they did not know which plan was good and which plan was evil before they made that choice?
Since you don't know what plan is evil or good, you would also fight if you believed others chose an evil plan
(especially if your Father was viewed as choosing that evil plan too).

Jesus said "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat:Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto
life, and few there be that find it."

'Many' is a majority when compared to 'few'

When you assert God will judge people based on their knowledge, are you saying that those who die without hearing the gospel and accepting Christ aren’t going to be sent to an endless hell?

Why do you believe that a God of perfect love, omniscience, and infinite and eternal power is incapable of perfecting beings who were made in his own image? John says “God is light and in him there is no darkness.” Therefore why would God not want to finish the job of perfecting his creation and purge them of all darkness as well? Is it because for some inexplicable reason the God of perfect love doesn’t want his creatures to have the same degree of joy and enlightenment he enjoys? 

The reason why Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven is because they rejected God as their father and Christ as their Lord and Redeemer, and did so in the full light of noonday, having a fully informed knowledge as to what they were doing. The sons of perdition, who will also be thrust into that permanent hell at the time of the final judgement, will be consigned to that state because after being given thousands of years and thousands of merciful opportunities to come unto Christ they utterly refuse to do so.

God cannot save anyone who, after being given thousands of years to decide, doesn’t want to be saved, This is a far cry from the capricious God of the Evangelicals who is apparently comfortable with condemning billions to hell who’ve had very limited time, opportunity and instruction to learn that they absolutely must to come unto Christ and repent or be condemned to hell.

Another important point to understand is that, as the Book of Mormon testifies, those who utterly refuse to accept salvation would be more miserable in heaven than in hell. Truly the kingdom of heaven must first be within us before we can appreciate being in heaven.

In this mortal world, it is indeed true that there are few that find the way to eternal life. Which is why when the unsaved enter the spirit prison (aka hell) after death God sends empowered and authorized messengers to preach the gospel to them so that, in effect, it’s the gospel that finds them. At that point they then are left with no other choice but to accept Christ or reject him prior to the final judgement, after which there is no more opportunity to repent.

Edited by teddyaware
Link to post
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I can only imagine what it is like to be content here let alone happy.

I hear you. It wasn't always like that for me. I have to fight for it/create it/etc daily. I wouldn't use either the words content or happy, also. A person can have a spectrum of emotion and feeling, but these emotions and feelings no longer lead to misery.

Like right now I am rather restless and melancholy; my heart hurts, even. But I am also aware of my blessings and of 'being held'. Again . . . this is where I want to be right now. This IS what I'm doing in eternity.

12 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So are you denying that the glory of the post-resurrection Telestial Kingdom is so grand, wonderful and glorious that understanding what it’s like there is beyond the ability of mortal human beings to comprehend?

That glory granted the inhabitants of the lowest kingdom of glory is called telestial glory. In the infinite mercy of a beneficent Father it surpasses all mortal understanding. (Bruce R McConkie)

Deny is your word. I respectfully submit to you that there doesn't need to be an ultimatum in what people understand.

And . . . Bruce R. McConkie?? :D  (I'm sorry . . . I had to :D . . . I don't take my cues from the conceptual thinking of the time period of which he is an artifact. LOVED his final testimony, I remember listening to that and wow.)

I am sure there are many experiences that are ahead of me, in time and eternity, I cannot now understand. There are many experiences I cannot at this time recollect, because I am sure that I have experienced many things in the past of eternity that are surpassing, before entering this world. In fact, the experience I now have is beyond the understanding of the younger me, and I mean that in the most real way; I walked out of pure hell.

I have the sense that the 'premortal' me--which is STILL me, I'm no one else, I'm still that person--would have been told that what was ahead of me in the ordinance of entering this world (which is the Holy of Holies), that it would blow my mind, i.e. could not be told for its glories, could not be told for its treasure. They were right. You have to be here. It can't be explained.

I know that there are very high states of being and body; there are very low states of being and body; and everything in between. And these states are possible at any time one lives the principles/laws of them. Granted, it takes an effort to choose and experience 'celestially' (etc), individually or in families in this world, since EVERYone isn't doing it all at once. So there is a hurdle there. But it's not impossible.

I'm not saying I'm in the highest state right now. I know that for sure I am not. I am saying that if I was asked what I would want to do for eternity and allowed that, that I am already doing it. Which necessarily includes a lowering of state in order to embody. Which is what we all did when we entered this world from our Father's realms (so 'celestiality' is something we all already know, we just cannot recollect now).

My question to you and to anyone is how do you possibly not see and know the glory/ies that are here now? This IS a realm of glory. This an invitation! You are not so far away from your Father as you may think!

Glory is available, now AND forever. It is done by living the principles that yield the glory. This is our destiny: to leave hell and enter glory.

Alma in the Book of Mormon teaches that what will be restored to us is what we already are. He teaches that it is impossible to be given something we never knew or had of our own selves. The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that celestiality comes from overcoming. I have not overcome all, but there is much I have overcome, and I am already receiving glory from that overcoming.

The hummingbirds are starting to come out in my yard. Glory.

Edited by Maidservant
  • Like 2
Link to post
  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/8/2020 at 12:17 PM, Kafiristan said:

All,

Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

There is no progression between kingdoms.

Quote

KINGDOMS PROGRESS IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS. Now let us see how faulty this reasoning is. If in time those who enter the telestial glory may progress till they reach the stage in which the celestial is in now -- then they are in celestial glory, are they not, even if the celestial has advanced? That being the case (I state this for the argument only, for it is not true), then they partake of all the blessings which are now celestial. That means that they become gods, have exaltation, gain the fulness of the Father, and receive a continuation of the "seeds forever." The Lord, however, has said that these blessings, which are celestial blessings, they may never have; they are barred forever!

The celestial and terrestrial and telestial glories, I have heard compared to the wheels on a train. The second and third may, and will, reach the place where the first was, but the first will have moved on and will still be just the same distance in advance of them. This illustration is not true! The wheels do not run on the same track, and do not go in the same direction. The terrestrial and the telestial are limited in their powers of advancement, worlds without end.

LIMITATION ON CELESTIAL PROGRESSION. In section 131, the Lord has said, through the Prophet Joseph Smith: "In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase." So, we see, even in the  celestial, some are barred and cannot go on to exaltation.

Further light is thrown on this in section 132: "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity, and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever." These angels, spoken of here, include those who enter the celestial kingdom but do not gain the highest glory in that kingdom.

In this same section the Lord says: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory. For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

"This is eternal lives -- to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law. Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law."

Now, if a man is deprived of the "continuation of the lives" for ever -- and not to have these blessings is referred to as leading to the deaths, or the lack of the continuation of the lives, or increase -- then he cannot "worlds without end" reach the celestial glory; for the celestial glory is "the continuation of the lives" or increase eternally; it is to be gods, even the sons of God.

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:239-240

Just like the angels in Heaven, those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will live separately and alone.  Your bodies will not be capable of procreation and there will not be romantic relationships.  However, there will be opportunities for learning and growth within the limits that are set.  There will be a lot of company in telestial kingdom.  According to the prominent LDS Hebrew scholar and authority on Isaiah, Avraham Gileadi, Isaiah tells us that 90% of the population will enter the telestial kingdom, 9% the terrestrial kingdom, and only 1% will make the celestial kingdom. 

Quote

 

 

Link to post

OTOH:

Quote

1952: Joseph L Anderson, Secretary of the First Presidency

The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.

Sincerely your brother, Joseph L Anderson, Secretary of the First Presidency” </ref>Joseph L. Anderson, Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965.</ref>

1995: Boyd K. Packer:

Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!” “Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.” “There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin. [1]

1855: Brigham Young

None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods — all others would have to inherit another kingdom — they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?]. [2]

1910: Joseph F. Smith:

Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for. [3]

1960: J. Reuben Clark

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. [4]

1899: James E. Talmage:

It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase. [5]

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Do_Mormons_believe_that_there_is_there_progression_between_the_three_degrees_of_glory%3F

  • Like 4
Link to post

I don't see the use in being "troubled". So what if you don't understand?  There's a lot that is not understood -- until it is.  I rely heavily upon my conviction that our Father is a loving God, that we are His children, and however it ends up for us will be the best for all.  In the end we will have no problem at all in understanding everything and feel to praise Him for all that we are worthy of.

If it bothers you that it seems like someone will inherit the Telestial instead of the Terrestrial or the Celestial Kingdom, ask yourself if you even have the faintest idea what the least of these kingdoms of Glory will actually be like.  If you're honest you will have to admit that you know pretty much close to Zip, Nada, Nichts, and Nothing.  So close to nothing in fact, that for all intents and purposes you know less than nothing. How is it possible to know less than nothing about it, do you ask?  It is because much of what you think you know is false.  

Imagine to yourself what your mortal life would be like if you had everything your heart desired, that you were so far beyond happy that your joy had no description, and that not only did you feel like smiling all the time, but you did smile all the time. Imagine that you had no disappointments, no regrets, and no sadness. Not even the smallest bit.  And then once you have managed this, realize that your life in the lowest part of the Telestial Kingdom will still be beyond that imagination.  

And then you think you will be upset and feel bad that you can't get promoted to the next level beyond that?  Pfft!  No way, Jose.

And then imagine that @Robert F. Smith is right when he says that we will all eventually make to the Celestial Kingdom.  I don't think he's correct, but like I wrote above, how would I know?  What the Lord has prepared for us is literally beyond our imagining. So stop being troubled.  You don't have enough reason to be, God being God.  And being troubled is actually being ungrateful.

  • Like 1
Link to post
17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

We in the terrestrial kingdom will sail.The water will be 82*F, the air will be 82*F, the wind will be 13 kts, the seas will be under 4 feet. Everyone is invited.

This makes me think of Sailing by Christopher Cross:

And of course, Southern Cross by Crosby, Stills and Nash:

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Posted (edited)

I had some further thoughts on this, to expand upon the idea that we have no idea what it all it means, at this time. And to admonish everyone to stop thinking so small.

Understand that you are important to God, but He cannot use you in His work -- His eternal work in the expanse of eternity, not just the work in this little puddle we swim in here on earth -- until He has proven you, and proven you to yourself. Hence you are here in a place where you cannot remember what went before, dumbed down to a figurative sub-moron level, and restricted to a single mental track. And you are presented with problems and opportunities. What will you do today? Will you do evil, or will you do righteousness?  Will you choose Father's work over your own?  And especially, will you love your fellow humans or will you despise them?

If you make certain choices you will be found worthy of the Telestial Kingdom. If you make others, you will be found worthy of the Terrestrial. And with yet others, it will be the Celestial. And finally, some will have proven themselves worthy for the highest level of the Celestial, and be counted suitable to do the glorious work that the Father does.  The scriptures are replete with this doctrine, and not only the Doctrine and Covenants, but also the New Testament.

But some want to reduce it to sitting around feeling various shades of contentment. There is no vision in these conceptions.

Do you know how utterly huge the universe is?  I took the screen name of Stargazer because I am interested in astronomy.  And what I have discovered is that humans have discovered that the universe is so vast that we cannot even begin to comprehend the teensiest part of it.  You see the sun shining bright, and it's pretty big you think, but how big is it?  You cannot comprehend how big it is, but just try for a moment to imagine it.  It's voluminous enough that 1.3 million earths could fit inside it. After this, there are plenty of other suns out there, glowing brightly. And at night you can see a few thousand of them. But there are patches of luminosity out there which are actually clusters of hundreds and thousands of stars like the sun, some with planets like the earth circling them. And there are other patches you can barely discern, like the Andromeda Galaxy, which is similar to the one we occupy and misidentify as the Milky Way, and here we can see that it has billions of stars circling around a central bulge of stars.  This galaxy is so far away that it takes light 2 million years to cross the gap.  Looking further outward, we see clusters of galaxies, hundreds of millions of light-years across, containing hundreds and even thousands of galaxies similar to ours. Going further we see that there are super-clusters of galaxies containing millions of galaxies containing billions of stars each. And yet further still we see enormous clusters of super-clusters of galaxies, super-clusters of super-clusters of galaxies, and long filaments of chains of super-clusters of super-clusters of galaxies. And all of this expands continuously and evolves. And as it all evolves, gas condenses into new stars, swirling into new planets, and new homes and testing grounds for more and more of Father's children.

Whose job do you think it is to help Father direct all of this into the forms He needs in order to provide these new testing grounds for Father's children?  I'm speculating here a bit, but I'm pretty sure that you're going to be closely involved with it, once you have proven to yourself where your place is, in eternity.  You can even go beyond this Universe, because you know that the Father doesn't actually dwell in this Universe that He created, but that He lives outside of it. You could call the place where God dwells the Super-Universe -- and how much larger than this already-incomprehensibly large Universe of time and space must it be!  

You are going to be so doggoned busy that you won't have time to worry about much else.

People whose idea of heaven is that it is just like here, but with better furnishings in the living room really need to open their minds a bit.  You can't see it, but can't you at least try to imagine the utter glory of it all?

We like to quote Moses 1:39 when talking about the purpose of God, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. But we almost always forget to read the preceding verses, where Moses asks about the Father's worlds and works, and he is told:

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Edited by Stargazer
  • Like 3
Link to post
13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

...................................

And then imagine that @Robert F. Smith is right when he says that we will all eventually make to the Celestial Kingdom.  I don't think he's correct,.....................

Did I say that?  Well, if I did, in a burst of optimism, I may have gone too far.  I do think that nearly all of us make it back to a kingdom of Glory.  That is the genius of the Plan of Salvation:  If we are willing, we can all accept the Atonement and any accompanying ordinances.  Temple sealers I have heard think that most of those for whom the ordinances are done are grateful and accepting.  I feel the same.  Do I know the percentages allocated to this or that kingdom of Glory?  Nope.  But I am hopeful.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I had some further thoughts on this, to expand upon the idea that we have no idea what it all it means, at this time. And to admonish everyone to stop thinking so small.

Understand that you are important to God, but He cannot use you in His work -- His eternal work in the expanse of eternity, not just the work in this little puddle we swim in here on earth -- until He has proven you, and proven you to yourself. Hence you are here in a place where you cannot remember what went before, dumbed down to a figurative sub-moron level, and restricted to a single mental track. And you are presented with problems and opportunities. What will you do today? Will you do evil, or will you do righteousness?  Will you choose Father's work over your own?  And especially, will you love your fellow humans or will you despise them?

If you make certain choices you will be found worthy of the Telestial Kingdom. If you make others, you will be found worthy of the Terrestrial. And with yet others, it will be the Celestial. And finally, some will have proven themselves worthy for the highest level of the Celestial, and be counted suitable to do the glorious work that the Father does.  The scriptures are replete with this doctrine, and not only the Doctrine and Covenants, but also the New Testament.

But some want to reduce it to sitting around feeling various shades of contentment. There is no vision in these conceptions.

Do you know how utterly huge the universe is?  I took the screen name of Stargazer because I am interested in astronomy.  And what I have discovered is that humans have discovered that the universe is so vast that we cannot even begin to comprehend the teensiest part of it.  You see the sun shining bright, and it's pretty big you think, but how big is it?  You cannot comprehend how big it is, but just try for a moment to imagine it.  It's voluminous enough that 1.3 million earths could fit inside it. After this, there are plenty of other suns out there, glowing brightly. And at night you can see a few thousand of them. But there are patches of luminosity out there which are actually clusters of hundreds and thousands of stars like the sun, some with planets like the earth circling them. And there are other patches you can barely discern, like the Andromeda Galaxy, which is similar to the one we occupy and misidentify as the Milky Way, and here we can see that it has billions of stars circling around a central bulge of stars.  This galaxy is so far away that it takes light 2 million years to cross the gap.  Looking further outward, we see clusters of galaxies, hundreds of millions of light-years across, containing hundreds and even thousands of galaxies similar to ours. Going further we see that there are super-clusters of galaxies containing millions of galaxies containing billions of stars each. And yet further still we see enormous clusters of super-clusters of galaxies, super-clusters of super-clusters of galaxies, and long filaments of chains of super-clusters of super-clusters of galaxies. And all of this expands continuously and evolves. And as it all evolves, gas condenses into new stars, swirling into new planets, and new homes and testing grounds for more and more of Father's children.

Whose job do you think it is to help Father direct all of this into the forms He needs in order to provide these new testing grounds for Father's children?  I'm speculating here a bit, but I'm pretty sure that you're going to be closely involved with it, once you have proven to yourself where your place is, in eternity.  You can even go beyond this Universe, because you know that the Father doesn't actually dwell in this Universe that He created, but that He lives outside of it. You could call the place where God dwells the Super-Universe -- and how much larger than this already-incomprehensibly large Universe of time and space must it be!  

You are going to be so doggoned busy that you won't have time to worry about much else.

People whose idea of heaven is that it is just like here, but with better furnishings in the living room really need to open their minds a bit.  You can't see it, but can't you at least try to imagine the utter glory of it all?

We like to quote Moses 1:39 when talking about the purpose of God, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. But we almost always forget to read the preceding verses, where Moses asks about the Father's worlds and works, and he is told:

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.
37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.
38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.
39 For behold, this is my work and my glory — to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

This why I love you Stargazer. When we get enough sailing in we will hop in your FTL ship and go be about the Lord's work. I spend hours gazing at the stars. It's why I love being at sea, far away from land and light pollution. Seeing the Southern Cross for the first time, trying to tack around Venus, giving my own names to the constellations you can see from the Southern hemisphere, these things please me greatly. I love building homes too, perhaps I will build homes on many worlds and never get tired.

Edited by rodheadlee
  • Like 3
Link to post
On 6/4/2020 at 5:05 AM, Ratbag said:

There is no progression between kingdoms.

Just like the angels in Heaven, those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will live separately and alone.  Your bodies will not be capable of procreation and there will not be romantic relationships.  However, there will be opportunities for learning and growth within the limits that are set.  There will be a lot of company in telestial kingdom.  According to the prominent LDS Hebrew scholar and authority on Isaiah, Avraham Gileadi, Isaiah tells us that 90% of the population will enter the telestial kingdom, 9% the terrestrial kingdom, and only 1% will make the celestial kingdom. 

I refuse to accept statements about the afterlife from an orc. Do you guys even have an afterlife?

I am not sure I would take those percentages too seriously? Sounds like guesswork or an esoteric reading of Isaiah. Plus if you factor in those who die before accountability it definitely skews the numbers.

  • Like 3
Link to post
5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I refuse to accept statements about the afterlife from an orc. Do you guys even have an afterlife?

I am not sure I would take those percentages too seriously? Sounds like guesswork or an esoteric reading of Isaiah. Plus if you factor in those who die before accountability it definitely skews the numbers.

What is an orc?

Link to post
5 hours ago, Ratbag said:

What is an orc?

I suggest google. 

Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By canard78
      Random question, but I was doing some study on the different stages in individual progress and looking into the origins and symbolic implications of the Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial experience in both Temple worship and eternal kingdoms.
      So we have:
      1/ Celestial
      2/ Terrestrial
      3/ Telestial
      The first two have established meaning. The third seems like a made up word, it's not English. Is it?
    • By swfarnsworth
      Ever since I finally memorized that the Terrestrial is the moon glory and the Telestial is the star glory (I got them mixed up a lot as a kid), I've thought that the two names should be switched. Here's why:
      "Telestial" is an invented word to describe the unnamed degree in 1 Cor. 15 created from a combination of the names of the other two degrees, so it would make sense to have it be the name of the degree in between the Celestial and Terrestrial. In the JST, Joseph could have simply inserted the word "Telestial" in between references to the other two (making the stars correspond to Terrestrial and the moon to Telestial) rather than adding it as an appendage.
      Though the earth will become a Terrestrial sphere during the millennium, it is presently a Telestial sphere. The word Terrestrial comes from the Latin word for earth, so it would make sense for the earth to be called a Telestial sphere when it is in between its present earthly state and the Celestial state it will be in after the Millennium.

      I'm not suggesting that the names should actually be switched; rather, I'm asking if there is a particular reason (or reasons) I haven't thought of yet that the degrees have the names that they do.
      As a side note, I remember being in primary sharing time lesson with a Plan of Salvation flow-chart. Though I did often get the names mixed up, I could still remember that the order was sun, moon, stars. The primary presidency member teaching the lesson had the degrees stacked in this descending order: sun, stars, moon. At the end of the lesson, another member of the presidency quietly pointed out her mistake, which had been bothering me for the duration of the lesson. When she switched the star and the moon pictures (I can't remember if the names were in the right places or not), she said "I guess you learn something every day!". This boosted my "I'm a smart little kid" ego.
×
×
  • Create New...