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What Will Those Who Qualify Only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for Eternity?


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All,

Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

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25 minutes ago, Kafiristan said:

All,

Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

It’s extremely difficult to understand why the inheritors of the Terrestrial Kingdom will be ministered to (taught toward the end goal of improvement) by Jesus Christ himself, and the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be ministered to by angels and by ministers from the Terrestrial Kingdom, if there isn’t a road for improvement and progression in light and truth for all those who will be so taught. What would be the point of this dynamic ongoing program of spiritual instruction in things pertaining to the Kingdom of God if those in the lower kingdoms of glory are incapable of growth and improvement?

Edited by teddyaware
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Dear Kafiristan, just came here to say I was thrilled to see the obscure reference to one of my favorite movies of all time.
Welcome to the board!

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Don't know but they will be happy. Well, happier than people here are anyways. They are given salvation and it beats the non-atonement fate of us all. I also suspect it beats what would have happened if we had stayed in premortality.

Also don't know on raising a kingdom later. My gut says "yes" because I can see why God would not tell us that if it were true. Then again it is easy to construct a scriptural argument for no progress.

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I don't know.  What do you think they'll want to do?  If the same spirit that possesses a person in mortality possesses him in the hereafter, isn't that a clue?  Celestial will (want to) do as celestial is, terrestial will (want to) do as terrestrial is, and telestial will (want to) do as telestial is.  Brad Wilcox once wrote that we myopic mortals have it backward: We think that God is the stern taskmaster who will be telling us we can't stay in his presence when in reality, it is we who, because we don't feel comfortable in a celestial environment, will be saying "Get me out of here!" while God has been pleading with us the whole time we were in mortality to do the things that will make us celestial people.

If your response to that is, "Well, 99.9% of mortals never had a chance!", we're judged according to what we know.  The more we know, the harsher will be our judgment, and the less we know, the more lenient will be our judgment.

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2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't know.  What do you think they'll want to do?  If the same spirit that possesses a person in mortality possesses him in the hereafter, isn't that a clue?  Celestial will (want to) do as celestial is, terrestial will (want to) do as terrestrial is, and telestial will (want to) do as telestial is.  Brad Wilcox once wrote that we myopic mortals have it backward: We think that God is the stern taskmaster who will be telling us we can't stay in his presence when in reality, it is we who, because we don't feel comfortable in a celestial environment, will be saying "Get me out of here!" while God has been pleading with us the whole time we were in mortality to do the things that will make us celestial people.

If your response to that is, "Well, 99.9% of mortals never had a chance!", we're judged according to what we know.  The more we know, the harsher will be our judgment, and the less we know, the more lenient will be our judgment.

This is exactly why I'll likely be with most of my friends in the Telestial Kingdom!:lol:

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19 hours ago, Kafiristan said:

All,

Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

I think this is best examined when one realises the Book of Mormon teaches that one 
cannot progress after this mortal life.

I'll quote some of the passages I found.
 
"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). The mortal 
time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 
41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 9:25-27).

Mosiah 2:32-33 - "But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among 
you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 
For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for 
if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh 
damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, 
having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

Mosiah 2:38-39 - "Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an 
enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively 
sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the 
Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an 
unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto 
you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a 
never-ending torment."

Mosiah 15:22-27 - "And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that 
have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, 
shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first 
resurrection. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have 
eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. And these are those 
who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before 
Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus 
the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first 
resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children 
also have eternal life. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought 
to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their 
sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, 
that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and 
would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first fresurrection.
Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord 
hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny 
himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim."
                                                           
Mosiah 16:10-11 - Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption 
shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to 
be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be 
evil-If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they 
be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, 
who hath subjected them, which is damnation.

Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech 
of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after 
this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not 
improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there 
can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that 
same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, 
that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For 
behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, 
ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, 
and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

2 Nephi 9:25 - Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there 
is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where 
there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, 
because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement 
satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to 
them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, 
and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored 
to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. But wo unto him 
that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and 
that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his 
state!"

Alma 40:11-14 - "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the 
resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of 
all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all 
men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And 
then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received 
into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, 
where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then 
shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, 
they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil 
works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and 
take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there 
shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own 
iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the 
souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the 
fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as 
well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection."

Doctrine and Covenants 76:81 seems to indicate that people will be released from hell 
to be welcomed into a kingdom more glorious than their life on earth before they died 
(contrast with Alma 34:32-35; 40:11-14; and 2 Nephi 9:25). 

"And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even 
as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 
These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.  
These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. 
These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, 
until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work."

Doctrine and Covenants 63:17 is a reference to liars, whoremongers, and sorcerers being 
cast into the lake of fire but Doctrine and Covenants 76:103,106 has these telestials 
(liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers) leaving hell for a kingdom of glory.

Another 'revelation' (D&C 101:65-66) has the wicked (those who don't become gods) cursed 
with everlasting fire.

"Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and 
the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be 
crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward 
every man according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and 
their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire".

Hope this helps,
Jim

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Posted (edited)

FYI, theplains is not a believer, his perspective of our scripture and interpretations of church doctrine therefore may differ from actual members.

Edited by Calm
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22 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Dear Kafiristan, just came here to say I was thrilled to see the obscure reference to one of my favorite movies of all time.
Welcome to the board!

Thanks!  It is one of my favorite movies as well.  For those who don't know what movie Rajah is referencing, it is The Man Who Would be King (came out in 1975). 

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23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s extremely difficult to understand why the inheritors of the Terrestrial Kingdom will be ministered to (taught toward the end goal of improvement) by Jesus Christ himself, and the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom will be ministered to by angels and by ministers from the Terrestrial Kingdom, if there isn’t a road for improvement and progression in light and truth for all those who will be so taught. What would be the point of this dynamic ongoing program of spiritual instruction in things pertaining to the Kingdom of God if those in the lower kingdoms of glory are incapable of growth and improvement?

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I too have wondered about the point and purpose of the ministering of those in the Celestial to those in the Terrestrial and those in the Terrestrial ministering to those in the Telestial if it is not to teach them and help them further learn, grow, and repent so they can then move up to a higher kingdom.  An interesting quote (below) I came across attributed to Apostle J. Reuben Clark, Jr. infers progression from kingdom to kingdom is possible:

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. (Church News, p. 3 , 23 April 1960)

I know that an article in the Church News doesn't constitute revealed doctrine, but this and other writings and opinions by church leaders since Joseph Smith's time give hope that progression from kingdom to kingdom is at least a possibility, one that the Lord has not chosen to make clear to us at this time.  Apostle Bruce R. McConkie didn't like the idea of progression from kingdom to kingdom at all and condemned it in an address as a "deadly heresy" (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/) but I don't know that his one talk negates everything else said by prophets and apostles who preceded him.  I suppose it will take revelation to put the matter to rest for those of us here in mortality.

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21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

They will be emptynesters, lol!

ROFL!  I love it!  Humorous, and true since eternal increase (of ones family) only continues in the Celestial Kingdom. 

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18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Don't know but they will be happy. Well, happier than people here are anyways. They are given salvation and it beats the non-atonement fate of us all. I also suspect it beats what would have happened if we had stayed in premortality.

Also don't know on raising a kingdom later. My gut says "yes" because I can see why God would not tell us that if it were true. Then again it is easy to construct a scriptural argument for no progress.

I agree they will be happier and that think that God will give them everything they are able and willing to receive (whatever that means in a Telestial or Terrestrial context).  As for progressing from one kingdom to the next, I've always thought that in line with the doctrine of eternal progression, as a person continues to learn and gain experience on earth and in the spirit world (and hopefully in the kingdoms of glory?), their perspective and understanding will grow and they will see what they are missing out on by choosing to live the laws that qualify them only for the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms.  They will realize it will be worth the effort to repent/change/obey/do whatever is required to come where God the Father is and partake of the blessings that can only be given there.  We know for sure there is opportunity to grow and repent in the Spirit World after death in advance of the Final Judgement.  Maybe all of what I just wrote only happens in the Spirit World before the Final Judgement and not after one has been assigned a kingdom but in my mind it seems consistent with the justice and mercy of God to allow for it in the lower kingdoms, even if it is a much slower process than it would have been if repentance and obedience to Celestial Laws had occurred in mortality or the Spirit World.  Thanks for your reply. 

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10 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't know.  What do you think they'll want to do?  If the same spirit that possesses a person in mortality possesses him in the hereafter, isn't that a clue?  Celestial will (want to) do as celestial is, terrestial will (want to) do as terrestrial is, and telestial will (want to) do as telestial is.  Brad Wilcox once wrote that we myopic mortals have it backward: We think that God is the stern taskmaster who will be telling us we can't stay in his presence when in reality, it is we who, because we don't feel comfortable in a celestial environment, will be saying "Get me out of here!" while God has been pleading with us the whole time we were in mortality to do the things that will make us celestial people.

If your response to that is, "Well, 99.9% of mortals never had a chance!", we're judged according to what we know.  The more we know, the harsher will be our judgment, and the less we know, the more lenient will be our judgment.

Good questions and good thoughts.  We know that when we die the same spirit/attitudes/inclinations we had in life will continue with us in the hereafter but there is still opportunity for learning and repentance in the postmortal spirit world.  What we will want to do can change as we continue learning and gaining knowledge and experience.  Is that continued opportunity to change limited to the postmortal spirit world before the Final Judgment or will it continue in one of the three kingdoms of glory?  IDK (but desperately want to know!)  :O)  Thanks for your reply.

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5 hours ago, theplains said:

I think this is best examined when one realises the Book of Mormon teaches that one 
cannot progress after this mortal life.

I'll quote some of the passages I found.
 
"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). The mortal 
time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 
41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 9:25-27).

Mosiah 2:32-33 - "But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among 
you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 
For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for 
if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh 
damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, 
having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

Mosiah 2:38-39 - "Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an 
enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively 
sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the 
Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an 
unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto 
you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a 
never-ending torment."

Mosiah 15:22-27 - "And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that 
have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, 
shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first 
resurrection. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have 
eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. And these are those 
who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before 
Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus 
the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first 
resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children 
also have eternal life. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought 
to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their 
sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, 
that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and 
would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first fresurrection.
Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord 
hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny 
himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim."
                                                           
Mosiah 16:10-11 - Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption 
shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to 
be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be 
evil-If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they 
be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, 
who hath subjected them, which is damnation.

Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech 
of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after 
this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not 
improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there 
can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that 
same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, 
that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For 
behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, 
ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, 
and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

2 Nephi 9:25 - Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there 
is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where 
there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, 
because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement 
satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to 
them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, 
and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored 
to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. But wo unto him 
that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and 
that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his 
state!"

Alma 40:11-14 - "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the 
resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of 
all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all 
men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And 
then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received 
into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, 
where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then 
shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, 
they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil 
works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and 
take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there 
shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own 
iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the 
souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the 
fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as 
well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection."

Doctrine and Covenants 76:81 seems to indicate that people will be released from hell 
to be welcomed into a kingdom more glorious than their life on earth before they died 
(contrast with Alma 34:32-35; 40:11-14; and 2 Nephi 9:25). 

"And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even 
as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 
These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.  
These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. 
These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, 
until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work."

Doctrine and Covenants 63:17 is a reference to liars, whoremongers, and sorcerers being 
cast into the lake of fire but Doctrine and Covenants 76:103,106 has these telestials 
(liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers) leaving hell for a kingdom of glory.

Another 'revelation' (D&C 101:65-66) has the wicked (those who don't become gods) cursed 
with everlasting fire.

"Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and 
the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be 
crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward 
every man according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and 
their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire".

Hope this helps,
Jim

Thanks for your reply, Jim.  When you look at the Standard Works there is very little on which to base a hope of advancing from one kingdom to another.  Many modern prophets and apostles have spoken both for and against the idea of progressing from kingdom to kingdom.  Additional, clarifying revelation is required to put the matter to rest. 

However, as far as I am aware, there isn't disagreement about opportunity to progress, repent, and change in the Postmortal Spirit World.  As recently as the April 2020 LDS General Conference, Elder Dallin H. Oaks taught "our progress need not conclude with the end of mortality."  Just as you noted in one of the scriptures you quoted, Oaks taught that "we are told that this life is the time to prepare to meet God and that we should not procrastinate our repentance (see Alma 34:32–33)."  "Still", he continues, "we are taught that in the spirit world the gospel is preached even to 'the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth' (Doctrine and Covenants 138:29) and that those taught there are capable of repentance in advance of the Final Judgment (see verses 31–34, 57–59)." 

It is far better to live the Gospel (if one has access to it in this life) and repent while on earth than to wait to try to change and repent in the Spirit World.  Working to conquer and master one's passions and appetites without the very tool (your mortal body) one needs to use to do it when you knew you should have and could have done it on earth doesn't sound like an easy task even with God's help, but yet, a way will be provided for those who sincerely want to change and repent. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

This is exactly why I'll likely be with most of my friends in the Telestial Kingdom!:lol:

That's up to you. ;)  Want is as want does.  Why does God ask us to participate in our our salvation and in our own exaltation, even though our piddly little efforts, in comparison to what He and His Son already have done for us, aren't worth a fig?  Because that's how we demonstrate to Him that we want it.  God can do pretty much anything ... except save or exalt someone against that person's will.  If we don't want it, He's not going to force it upon us.  That was someone else's plan, remember? 

P.S.: I always joke that I'll settle for a modest little cottage on the outskirts of the Celestial City. ;)

Edited by Kenngo1969
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Posted (edited)

Kafiristan,

Keep in mind that Sunny Jim, aka theplains, isn't a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  While he's entitled to his opinions regarding our history, our doctrine, our practices, and so on, you're not likely to get thoughts from him which match those who are in the mainstream of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Just a word to the wise.  [I see Cal beat me to it!  She usually does! <_<:angry:

;):D]

-Ken

Edited by Kenngo1969
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55 minutes ago, Kafiristan said:

Good questions and good thoughts.  We know that when we die the same spirit/attitudes/inclinations we had in life will continue with us in the hereafter but there is still opportunity for learning and repentance in the postmortal spirit world.  What we will want to do can change as we continue learning and gaining knowledge and experience.  Is that continued opportunity to change limited to the postmortal spirit world before the Final Judgment or will it continue in one of the three kingdoms of glory?  IDK (but desperately want to know!)  :O)  Thanks for your reply.

I don't know whether there will be progression between kingdoms in the post-judgment afterlife.  I don't have a source, but I've heard that the Brethren are split on the issue, and if they don't know, it's certainly above my paygrade.  When Home Teaching was still a thing in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I used to say that I'd love to be able to worry about the ultimate fate of my immortal soul in the life to come ... but I was still trying to get 100% Home Teaching. ;):D 

Suffice it to say, there's more good even in people whom many would consider to be the worst among us and more bad even in people whom many would consider to be the best among us than many of us might suspect.  I wonder, at the judgment, are we going to be called on as witnesses in each other's cases?  Will we be saying, "Jesus, boy, am I glad you called me to be a witness against Kenngo1969!  You should hear how he mistreated his fellow men and fellow women!"  Whereupon, after listening to the testimony that is offered against Kenngo1969, Jesus might stroke His chin thoughtfully and say, "Yes, that's all very serious, no question about it.  But there's another side to that coin.  I wonder, do you know much about the burdens he was carrying?  As it happens, I do, because I helped him carry those burdens.  Let me tell you about them."

That's why God forgives whom He will forgive, but we are commanded to forgive everyone (see Doctrine and Covenants 64:10) and why we're encouraged to consider the measuring instruments we use to judge our fellow men and women (see Matthew 7:2 in the Holy Bible).

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6 hours ago, theplains said:

I think this is best examined when one realises the Book of Mormon teaches that one 
cannot progress after this mortal life.

I'll quote some of the passages I found.
 
"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors" (Alma 34:32). The mortal 
time of preparation is also called the probationary period (Alma 5:31; 12:24-26; 
41:6; 42:4, 10; 2 Nephi 9:25-27).

Mosiah 2:32-33 - "But, O my people, beware lest there shall arise contentions among 
you, and ye list to obey the evil spirit, which was spoken of by my father Mosiah. 
For behold, there is a wo pronounced upon him who listeth to obey that spirit; for 
if he listeth to obey him, and remaineth and dieth in his sins, the same drinketh 
damnation to his own soul; for he receiveth for his wages an everlasting punishment, 
having transgressed the law of God contrary to his own knowledge.

Mosiah 2:38-39 - "Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an 
enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively 
sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the 
Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an 
unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever. And now I say unto 
you, that mercy hath no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a 
never-ending torment."

Mosiah 15:22-27 - "And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that 
have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, 
shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first 
resurrection. They are raised to dwell with God who has redeemed them; thus they have 
eternal life through Christ, who has broken the bands of death. And these are those 
who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before 
Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus 
the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first 
resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children 
also have eternal life. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought 
to tremble; for the Lord redeemeth none such that rebel against him and die in their 
sins; yea, even all those that have perished in their sins ever since the world began, 
that have wilfully rebelled against God, that have known the commandments of God, and 
would not keep them; these are they that have no part in the first fresurrection.
Therefore ought ye not to tremble? For salvation cometh to none such; for the Lord 
hath redeemed none such; yea, neither can the Lord redeem such; for he cannot deny 
himself; for he cannot deny justice when it has its claim."
                                                           
Mosiah 16:10-11 - Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption 
shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to 
be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be 
evil-If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they 
be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, 
who hath subjected them, which is damnation.

Alma 34:32-35 - "For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; 
yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  And 
now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech 
of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after 
this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not 
improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there 
can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that 
same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, 
that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For 
behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, 
ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; 
therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, 
and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked."

2 Nephi 9:25 - Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there 
is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where 
there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, 
because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement 
satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to 
them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, 
and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored 
to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. But wo unto him 
that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and 
that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his 
state!"

Alma 40:11-14 - "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the 
resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of 
all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all 
men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And 
then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received 
into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, 
where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then 
shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, 
they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil 
works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and 
take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there 
shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own 
iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the 
souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the 
fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as 
well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection."

Doctrine and Covenants 76:81 seems to indicate that people will be released from hell 
to be welcomed into a kingdom more glorious than their life on earth before they died 
(contrast with Alma 34:32-35; 40:11-14; and 2 Nephi 9:25). 

"And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even 
as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. 
These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.  
These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. 
These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, 
until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work."

Doctrine and Covenants 63:17 is a reference to liars, whoremongers, and sorcerers being 
cast into the lake of fire but Doctrine and Covenants 76:103,106 has these telestials 
(liars, sorcerers, adulterers, and whoremongers) leaving hell for a kingdom of glory.

Another 'revelation' (D&C 101:65-66) has the wicked (those who don't become gods) cursed 
with everlasting fire.

"Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and 
the tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be 
crowned with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward 
every man according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and 
their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire".

Hope this helps,
Jim

What you fail to understand is that the Book of Mormon’s “death of the mortal body” does not take place in the eyes of God until the time when vicarious ordinance work for the dead finally comes to an end at the time of the last resurrection and final judgement. As long as there are living mortal human beings who enter the temples to do vicarious ordinance work for the dead, the Book of Mormon’s “day of this life” has not come to an end for a single son or daughter of God. God in his abundant mercy for his deceased children regards each and every one of them as if they are still alive in the flesh. And they will continue to be thus regarded until the wonderful program of vicarious temple for the dead comes to its glorious conclusion, when all but the sons of perdition will be saved and inherit a mansion of glory in the post-resurrection kingdom of God. The apostle Peter perfectly understood this glorious doctrine of divine mercy...

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

 

Edited by teddyaware
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2 hours ago, Kafiristan said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I too have wondered about the point and purpose of the ministering of those in the Celestial to those in the Terrestrial and those in the Terrestrial ministering to those in the Telestial if it is not to teach them and help them further learn, grow, and repent so they can then move up to a higher kingdom.  An interesting quote (below) I came across attributed to Apostle J. Reuben Clark, Jr. infers progression from kingdom to kingdom is possible:

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come. (Church News, p. 3 , 23 April 1960)

I know that an article in the Church News doesn't constitute revealed doctrine, but this and other writings and opinions by church leaders since Joseph Smith's time give hope that progression from kingdom to kingdom is at least a possibility, one that the Lord has not chosen to make clear to us at this time.  Apostle Bruce R. McConkie didn't like the idea of progression from kingdom to kingdom at all and condemned it in an address as a "deadly heresy" (https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie/seven-deadly-heresies/) but I don't know that his one talk negates everything else said by prophets and apostles who preceded him.  I suppose it will take revelation to put the matter to rest for those of us here in mortality. leaders of the 
 

Some of the early Church leaders, including Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff, believed it was likely possible that the inheritors of the lower post-resurrection kingdoms of glory would eventually be able to obtain celestial glory. And to this I say why not? Why would a God of perfect love, whose very work and purpose is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal live of man,” want to prevent any of his children from obtaining true happiness? The very thought makes reason stare. And remember that the text of Doctrine and Covenants 76 tells us it does not provide the last word when it comes to the plan of salvation and the heavenly glories that lie in futurity.

113 This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
114 But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion;
115 Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; (D&C 76)

Edited by teddyaware
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I posted this in another corner of the forum a week or so ago.  Perhaps it is relevant to this thread, as well:

Quote

 

If one's view is that s/he simply ceases to exist entirely and succumbs to the void immediately upon shuffling off this mortal coil, then perhaps the biggest surprise to him or her will simply be continuing to exist upon doing so:

"Wow!   I'm still here!":shok:  :o I was not expecting that!:yahoo:

If the bar is set that low, it won't take much to surprise such folks. ;)  Will they be the ones who are least prone to complain about getting only two mints on the pillow instead of the expected three? :D

Time will tell, I suppose.  We shall see. :)

 

 

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On 5/7/2020 at 8:17 PM, Kafiristan said:

All,

Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 

Since they are kingdoms of glory, they should likely be quite exciting and interesting, and they can be visited by those from the Celestial glory.

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9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Since they are kingdoms of glory, they should likely be quite exciting and interesting, and they can be visited by those from the Celestial glory.

I picture those that go to the CK likened unto those that are the usual 10 people that are stalwart in each ward and carrying the burden of holding the hard callings and they cycle through them all the time. Well, it happened in my ward anyway. 

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10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

I see that, but there is nothing about baptisms or other ordinances being performed in the spirit world.
Also, it is Jesus preaching - not other people being sent to preach.

I'm borrowing this passage from gotquestions.org

What was being baptized for the dead? It is a mysterious passage, and there have been more than thirty different
interpretations put forward. 1. The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized
on behalf of those who have died—and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? 2. Either Paul is referring
to a pagan custom (notice he uses "they," not "we"), or to a superstitious and unscriptural practice in the Corinthian
church of vicarious baptism for believers who died before being baptized. 3. Either way, he certainly does not
approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?


 

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    • By canard78
      Random question, but I was doing some study on the different stages in individual progress and looking into the origins and symbolic implications of the Telestial, Terrestrial, Celestial experience in both Temple worship and eternal kingdoms.
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