Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Ever since I finally memorized that the Terrestrial is the moon glory and the Telestial is the star glory (I got them mixed up a lot as a kid), I've thought that the two names should be switched. Here's why:

  • "Telestial" is an invented word to describe the unnamed degree in 1 Cor. 15 created from a combination of the names of the other two degrees, so it would make sense to have it be the name of the degree in between the Celestial and Terrestrial. In the JST, Joseph could have simply inserted the word "Telestial" in between references to the other two (making the stars correspond to Terrestrial and the moon to Telestial) rather than adding it as an appendage.
  • Though the earth will become a Terrestrial sphere during the millennium, it is presently a Telestial sphere. The word Terrestrial comes from the Latin word for earth, so it would make sense for the earth to be called a Telestial sphere when it is in between its present earthly state and the Celestial state it will be in after the Millennium.

I'm not suggesting that the names should actually be switched; rather, I'm asking if there is a particular reason (or reasons) I haven't thought of yet that the degrees have the names that they do.

As a side note, I remember being in primary sharing time lesson with a Plan of Salvation flow-chart. Though I did often get the names mixed up, I could still remember that the order was sun, moon, stars. The primary presidency member teaching the lesson had the degrees stacked in this descending order: sun, stars, moon. At the end of the lesson, another member of the presidency quietly pointed out her mistake, which had been bothering me for the duration of the lesson. When she switched the star and the moon pictures (I can't remember if the names were in the right places or not), she said "I guess you learn something every day!". This boosted my "I'm a smart little kid" ego.

Link to post

Terrestrial is a good name for the middle degree, I think, because it will be most like this earth. Tierra (in Spanish) and Terra (in Latin) means "earth." Celestial is the degree above the earth in glory, and telestial is the degree below the earth in glory. My 1.7635820 cents. :)

Link to post

Telestial is the habitation of those who will be saved but still cut off from the presence of God the Father and his Son. They are raised in the last resurrection, the resurrection of judgment.

Telos is Greek for last or end.

Looks like a fine fit to me where it is.

Link to post

Did Joseph Smith know this?

I think that isn't a question which could be answered.

If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

Indeed.

Link to post

It is obvious from the context of D&C 76 that he was given the name, by the LORD, of the Telestial Kingdom. He didn't just invent it.

Link to post

Did Joseph Smith know this? If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

"Telestial" did not exist as a word until Joseph Smith introduced it. True, "telos" means "end" in Greek, but it means "end" in the sense of "fulfillment or completion of anything,...its consummation, issue, result, end" (Liddell-Scott). This would seem to better describe the highest level of the celestial kingdom rather than the telestial kingdom—those who inherit the telestial kingdom are fundamentally incomplete.

Also, I am not sure why we would expect to find a Greek basis for "telestial" when both "celestial" and "terrestrial" derive from Latin. I think it is quite possible that "telestial" was formed by combining "celestial" and "terrestrial."

Link to post

Tele is a Greek root word and means "distant" or "far." For example, telephone means "sound from a distance." Television means "vision from a distance." Teletubbies means "entertaining television program meant to educate children in entertaining ways that promote insanity among adults, instantiating them from all reality and inducing a state of extreme catatonic stupor." See below for results of watching Teletubbies.

Hippies.jpg

I would have posted a picture of Bill Hamblin, but his buddy Sandy would have inserted me into a video game and would have had me as the archenemy of all honest people and also Evangelists. and they would all seek to destroy me. My own children would have turned on me and my life would have become a true hell....well, a more truer hell. I would have been forced to move to Texas and root for the Dallas Cowboys.

hell-1.jpg

  • Upvote 1
Link to post

I had always understood, and I cannot remember where I got it from, that the -el prefix was a superlative of sorts. Celestial was the highest, Telestial was the lowest.

I don't know what language it is from, or perhaps it is simply the way I used to keep the Terrestial and Telestial straight.

Link to post

Did Joseph Smith know this? If so, whoever told me that he made Telestial up out of Celestial and Terrestrial was mistaken.

I do not know whether or not Joseph Smith knew this in 1832. It is possible. There were Greek-English lexicons available in many places. That said, Joseph Smith did not begin to study Greek until a later time. So, I do not know. Nonetheless, the term is fitting and derivative from the meaning inherent since the people who inherit the Telestial kingdom are the last to be redeemed at the time of the end, which is the completion of the redemptive work of Christ.

Link to post
True, "telos" means "end" in Greek, but it means "end" in the sense of "fulfillment or completion of anything,...its consummation, issue, result, end" (Liddell-Scott). This would seem to better describe the highest level of the celestial kingdom rather than the telestial kingdom...

Watch out when using Liddell-Scott. It is outdated. If you must use it for meanings used in the New Testament, it is best to supplement with a newer reference that focuses on Koine, the dialect of the New Testament. That said, however, those who enter the Telestial do so at the consummation of the redemptive work of Christ for us in the resurrection.

As to it applying to the Celestial better than the Telestial, I don't see how considering that those exalted in the Celestial kingdom are not resurrected at the consummation of Christ's redemptive work for the inhabitants of the Earth. In addition, there is no end to their growth and progress, no consummation thereof.

Also, I am not sure why we would expect to find a Greek basis for "telestial" when both "celestial" and "terrestrial" derive from Latin.

It is true that Celestial and Terrestrial derive from Latin. They are, however, English words. On the other hand, many English words derive from Greek rather than Latin. English words involving derivatives from telos/teles derive from Greek rather than from Latin. I just don't see it an insurmountable problem.

Edited by MormonMason
Link to post

Watch out when using Liddell-Scott. It is outdated. If you must use it for meanings used in the New Testament, it is best to supplement with a newer reference that focuses on Koine, the dialect of the New Testament.

Fair enough. I looked up "telos" in BDAG and it defines the term as

1. a point of time marking the end of a duration, end, termination, cessation...

2. the last part of a process, close, conclusion, esp. of the last things, the final act in the cosmic drama

I concede that this definition seems a better fit for "telestial."

Link to post

I don't know if it is at all relevant, but Tellus is an old name for the earth sometimes used in the western esoteric tradition.

Not of the earth but of the Earth Mother Goddess. It also is Latin for land or territory. It also is the name of an Athenian citizen who was said to be among the happiest of men. It is of differing derivation.

Edited by MormonMason
Link to post

It is obvious from the context of D&C 76 that he was given the name, by the LORD, of the Telestial Kingdom. He didn't just invent it.

It is possible for Joseph Smith to have invented words for the things the Lord was showing him without calling his prophetic calling into question.

Tele is a Greek root word and means "distant" or "far." For example, telephone means "sound from a distance." Television means "vision from a distance." Teletubbies means "entertaining television program meant to educate children in entertaining ways that promote insanity among adults, instantiating them from all reality and inducing a state of extreme catatonic stupor."

That makes the most sense of any suggestions made so far, though it's still strange that it would be a Greek root when the other two derive from Latin.

I had always understood, and I cannot remember where I got it from, that the -el prefix was a superlative of sorts. Celestial was the highest, Telestial was the lowest.

I don't know what language it is from, or perhaps it is simply the way I used to keep the Terrestial and Telestial straight.

I speak Latin and know a miniscule amount of Greek. I can read the Vulgate, but not the Greek NT.

"Terrestrial" derives from the Latin word "terrestrus". Without diagramming the morphemes of that word, it's an adjective meaning "earthly". Likewise, "Celestial" derives from the Latin "celestis" (sometimes spelled "caelestis"), which means "heavenly". "Telestial", however, does not resemble any Latin words I know. Where's MiserereNobis when you need him?

The superlative morpheme in Latin is -issim-. I'm glad that we don't call the highest degree the Celestissimal Kingdom. This would make missionary conversations rather awkward.

Link to post

I just checked Wiktionary to verify Urronur's claim, and it gave the etymology as "From tel(o)- +‎ (cel)estial", with "telo-" being defined as a prefix meaning "end". It is not stated what sort of end this is, be it a completion, the endpoint of a line segment (where neither end is a start or a finish), or the end of a rope (where the end of the rope is always the end and never the beginning).

It didn't give a citation saying that this was Joseph's/the Lord's reasoning in picking that name.

Also, "telestial" and "satellite" are anagrams.

Link to post

...That makes the most sense of any suggestions made so far, though it's still strange that it would be a Greek root when the other two derive from Latin.

English is like that. It has smatterings of vocabulary from a number of languages, including Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Arabic, French, and so forth. Telestial is an English word, just as Terrestrial and Celestial also are English words. They have as their roots other languages but they all are English words.

I speak Latin and know a miniscule amount of Greek. I can read the Vulgate, but not the Greek NT.

"Terrestrial" derives from the Latin word "terrestrus". Without diagramming the morphemes of that word, it's an adjective meaning "earthly". Likewise, "Celestial" derives from the Latin "celestis" (sometimes spelled "caelestis"), which means "heavenly". "Telestial", however, does not resemble any Latin words I know. Where's MiserereNobis when you need him?

The superlative morpheme in Latin is -issim-. I'm glad that we don't call the highest degree the Celestissimal Kingdom. This would make missionary conversations rather awkward.

You should learn to read the Greek New Testament. You will get a lot out of it.

The Greek underlying the English Celestial is epouranios. This is not the actual form of the word in the Greek text but the root.

Epouranios itself is a compound deriving from epi ("upon", "concerning", etc.) and ouranos ("heaven"). The Koine ending -ios/-ia/-ion is the rough equivalent to our English -ly in adjectives and adverbs and so forth.

We can see the same kind of construction in the second word. So, literally, we have "heavenly" and "earthly" in modern English of these texts.

You won't find teles/telos in Latin so far as I am aware. The closest in form is Latin tellus but has a different derivation than does Greek telos/teles.

Link to post

You should learn to read the Greek New Testament. You will get a lot out of it.

...

You won't find teles/telos in Latin so far as I am aware. The closest in form is Latin tellus but has a different derivation than does Greek telos/teles.

Every two weeks I tell myself that I will have the free time to do that sort of thing (i.e., continue learning Greek) in two weeks, but within those two weeks, the next two weeks are filled. The best laid plans of mice and men...

If only there was an original Greek translation of the JST for us to analyze, but that would be a contradiction.

Link to post

Every two weeks I tell myself that I will have the free time to do that sort of thing (i.e., continue learning Greek) in two weeks, but within those two weeks, the next two weeks are filled. The best laid plans of mice and men...

If only there was an original Greek translation of the JST for us to analyze, but that would be a contradiction.

If you allocate no less and no more than an hour a day, you can accomplish learning to at least read the Greek New Testament in somewhere between 52 days and 52 weeks. If you want to learn the advanced stuff, it will take longer. If you just want basic reading ability, the time I have given above would be sufficient if you use a book by John H. Dobson, entitled Learn New Testament Greek. It is the book I wish I had learned from when I learned. Would have been a helluva lot easier. Unfortunately, it wasn't written yet when I learned.

Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Kafiristan
      All,
      Please help me out.  I've been troubled for many years by the question of the status of those who qualify only for the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms.  Will these people be allowed to grow, repent, progress, and eventually move up to the Celestial Kingdom, or will they remain in their assigned kingdom for eternity?  If progressing from kingdom to kingdom is not possible, then, what will those who inherit the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms do for all eternity? 
    • By Nofear
      I first wrote a great deal more but I think it can be distilled down to a simpler situation.
      Exalted beings (eventually) are omnipotent. The have full control over existence inasmuch as control is possible . That would include their own physical and spirit body. If such a being wants to change his hair, eye, skin color -- he or she can. If such a being wants to retain physical markings consistent with mortal wounds -- he or she can. If such a being wants to be a foot taller or have four fingers -- he or she can. Celestial and Eternal Society is the pinnacle of harmony, peace, felicity, and efficacy. Our species has chosen to be basically gender binary We know that numerous sex/gender models exist and are present in different species Our spirit bodies were created by our Heavenly Parents A part of us is eternal and uncreate (I call that intelligent matter) and predates our spirit bodies We do not know if gender existed for us before our spirit body (as the D&C suggests, eternal does not necessarily mean into the infinite past or future) These are the basic facts of LDS theology. While I have several non-majority (yet still consistent with orthodoxy) opinions, I think these are mostly non-controversial as being consistent with our theology.
      So, how would you answer these questions?
      If an Exalted Being wants to change the physiological gender of their resurrected body, is that possible? Why has Eternal and Celestial Society chosen a gender binary mechanism? If gender existed before our spirit body, what does "gender" mean for a something that has no body? If gender did not exist before our spirit body, what was the mechanism whereby our Heavenly Parents chose a gender? Is that an immutable choice?  
      A note: These questions are not designed to be subversive in any way even though it might come across that way. I am theologically orthodox and orthopraxic. I fully support and sustain the Brethren, Elder Oaks, and the rest. I have my own partial answers to these questions, but other commentary may add insight that had not occurred to me.
    • By HappyJackWagon
      The church often teaches about the 3 degrees of glory. Within the highest glory, the Celestial Kingdom, there are also three subdivisions. It is taught that to achieve the highest level in the highest degree one must enter into celestial marriage. I further recall that the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be home to angels and those who will be servants, ie those who did not enter the covenant of celestial marriage. I cannot seem to recall who resides in the middle degree of the Celestial Kingdom. There seems to be very little taught about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but I'd love to hear ideas or see references about it.
      D&C 131:1-4
      In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
      From an article by common consent I read this...
      From D&C 76: 92 96 And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one.
      Also, from another thread where we have been discussing the teaching the Jackson County, Missouri (Independence) was the location of the Garden of Eden, it has been argued by some that despite a number of different prophets/apostles teaching that in various talks, conference, books, and Ensign articles, that because we don't have anything directly from Joseph (Even though Brigham cites Joseph) that it is an unreliable teaching. But this common consent article raises the same point about the 3 degrees within the Celestial Kingdom.
      The church seems to hang on to the concept of three degrees within the Celestial Kingdom but there really isn't much known or taught about it, beyond the highest level. What do we know about the bottom 2 levels of the Celestial Kingdom?
      https://bycommonconsent.com/2006/03/18/is-the-celestial-kingdom-divided-into-three-subdegrees/
    • By lds-convert-sw
      So my story is really long, but the short story is... My wife and I were married for 6 years, together a total of 8. I really really messed up, and I was not the man I should have been. She has been through a lot. There was a day this summer, the 'last straw' when my wife decided "Enough, I can't take anymore". And so we aren't together anymore. Divorced. But, an amazing experience happened shortly after, as I hit rock bottom in my life. A true revelation from God, and my eyes were opened to all I did, and what I needed to do. I knew our Savior on a personal level, for the first time ever. I was reborn. I know this sounds completely crazy, even clichéd, but I am not the man I used to be. (Click HERE if you have 15 minutes, you can read about what happened in great detail)
       
      My questions are:
      1. Can a marriage be saved?, especially a temple marriage. I love my (ex) wife so much, and I hurt so deeply, knowing the pain I've caused. I understand my covenants I made, finally. I want to be the husband I should have been. But it may be too late.
       
      2. Anyone who has gone through divorce as a Latter-Day Saint, how have you survived? How is it possible to live again? How can a heart heal? Most days, I feel like my heart is literally going to tear itself apart. I go to sacrament (a different ward) and while I love church, I feel alone. All the talk of marriage, and families are forever, and husbands and wives, and I don't belong anywhere anymore. I know we all have trials, but I can't find my way, I'm lost. I don't know who to talk to, I've talked to my bishop, and he's nice, but he has enough to deal with. Who do I turn to (Earthly), I have no family, my kids won't talk to me, I have no friends anymore. Every day I'm on my knees begging the Lord for forgiveness and asking for help.
    • By ilyan
      Announcing new LDS eBook, Intelligent Universe, now available on Amazon Kindle and in multiple formats at Smashwords.

×
×
  • Create New...