Eternal Gender: Why? (a part II, more focused thread)

[Nofear]

45 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The bolded parts.  Because they aren't basic facts of LDS theology.

I can agree with that. I was referring to the main bullet points (but wasn't clear).

Edited October 13, 2019 by Nofear

[mfbukowski]

 

Why not see it as cosmic forces, the eternal dialectic, sometimes opposed, sometimes complimentary, order vs chaos, seen as the human creation of Order and creation of the world as we know it in the birth of the Word?

Edited October 14, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/12/2019 at 11:55 AM, Nofear said:

I first wrote a great deal more but I think it can be distilled down to a simpler situation.

• Exalted beings (eventually) are omnipotent. The have full control over existence inasmuch as control is possible ..........................

I consider these assumptions to be false.  All exalted beings are finite, limited, and exist within time & space and natural law.  None can be omnipotent or omniscient.  They are not chameleons.

On 10/12/2019 at 11:55 AM, Nofear said:

• Celestial and Eternal Society is the pinnacle of harmony, peace, felicity, and efficacy.
  • Our species has chosen to be basically gender binary
  • We know that numerous sex/gender models exist and are present in different species

We have no reason to believe that being binary is a choice, nor that Celestial society is free from problems.  We have only to reflect upon one particular Divine Assembly in which Satan prevailed upon 1/3 of the host of heaven to apostatize.  It has never been and never will be easy.

On 10/12/2019 at 11:55 AM, Nofear said:

• Our spirit bodies were created by our Heavenly Parents
  • A part of us is eternal and uncreate (I call that intelligent matter) and predates our spirit bodies
  • We do not know if gender existed for us before our spirit body (as the D&C suggests, eternal does not necessarily mean into the infinite past or future)

Just like the infinite atonement, we had no beginning and we shall have no end -- on into infinity.  That is correct LDS theology.

On 10/12/2019 at 11:55 AM, Nofear said:

................................

So, how would you answer these questions?

• If an Exalted Being wants to change the physiological gender of their resurrected body, is that possible?
• Why has Eternal and Celestial Society chosen a gender binary mechanism?
• If gender existed before our spirit body, what does "gender" mean for a something that has no body?
• If gender did not exist before our spirit body, what was the mechanism whereby our Heavenly Parents chose a gender? Is that an immutable choice?........................................

We have no way in which to answer any of those questions.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

All exalted beings....exist within time & space

On what do you base this belief?

Quote

we had no beginning and we shall have no end -- on into infinity.

Then why assume we are finite?

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

nor that Celestial society is free from problems.  We have only to reflect upon one particular Divine Assembly in which Satan prevailed upon 1/3 of the host of heaven to apostatize. 

Do we know for sure preexistence spirits were in the Celestial Kingdom?

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

1. I consider these assumptions to be false.  All exalted beings are finite, limited, and exist within time & space and natural law.  None can be omnipotent or omniscient.  They are not chameleons.

2. We have no reason to believe that being binary is a choice, nor that Celestial society is free from problems.  We have only to reflect upon one particular Divine Assembly in which Satan prevailed upon 1/3 of the host of heaven to apostatize.  It has never been and never will be easy.

3. Just like the infinite atonement, we had no beginning and we shall have no end -- on into infinity.  That is correct LDS theology.

On point 1: I also believe we all exist in time and space (though I quite suspect there is "more" to it than what we mortals perceive) and subject to natural law. Nonetheless, they are omnipotent and omniscient and have full control over existence inasmuch as control is possible. Members, of course, vary in opinion on that underlined part.

On point 2: I didn't say Celestial society was free from problems. Only that it is the best society possible. Now, I personally assume that the society of exalted beings will be free from "problems" between themselves. Non-exalted beings ... well, we are all kinds of problems.

On point 3: There is an aspect of us that is self-existent and eternal. Quite true. Our spirit and mortal bodies are not that aspect. Consider President Joseph F. Smith's teaching (and probably all other latter-day saint prophets):

Quote

God is not only our Ruler and Creator; He is also our Heavenly Father. All men and women are literally the sons and daughters of God. “Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).

Now, I tend to assume that born is not viviparous as it has a lot of logistical problems, nonetheless, however one wants to define it our spirit bodies had a beginning. For me, personally, gender began with our spirit bodies, but I grant that others do not assume such.

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, Nofear said:

On point 1: I also believe we all exist in time and space (though I quite suspect there is "more" to it than what we mortals perceive) and subject to natural law. Nonetheless, they are omnipotent and omniscient and have full control over existence inasmuch as control is possible. Members, of course, vary in opinion on that underlined part.

On point 2: I didn't say Celestial society was free from problems. Only that it is the best society possible. Now, I personally assume that the society of exalted beings will be free from "problems" between themselves. Non-exalted beings ... well, we are all kinds of problems.

On point 3: There is an aspect of us that is self-existent and eternal. Quite true. Our spirit and mortal bodies are not that aspect. Consider President Joseph F. Smith's teaching (and probably all other latter-day saint prophets):

Now, I tend to assume that born is not viviparous as it has a lot of logistical problems, nonetheless, however one wants to define it our spirit bodies had a beginning. For me, personally, gender began with our spirit bodies, but I grant that others do not assume such.

You appealed to you inner physicist (and allude to quantum and theoretical physics in point 1 above), to which I responded to here: Posted 20 hours ago (edited) ...but haven't heard back from you.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We have no way in which to answer any of those questions.

But it's OK to play along with what we've got...

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

But it's OK to play along with what we've got...

If you have the skills of Orson Scott Card, go for it.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

On point 1: I also believe we all exist in time and space (though I quite suspect there is "more" to it than what we mortals perceive) and subject to natural law. Nonetheless, they are omnipotent and omniscient and have full control over existence inasmuch as control is possible. Members, of course, vary in opinion on that underlined part.........................

Omnipotence leads to absurd paradoxes which  make hash of normative Judeo-Christian theology, which LDS theology has fortunately abandoned.  God cannot be all-knowing or all-powerful in a universe of coeternal beings who have free agency.  That would be a logical contradiction in terms.  Natural law keeps us all within bounds.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Do we know for sure preexistence spirits were in the Celestial Kingdom?

No, but it does seem that we all knew our heavenly parents rather well, and that our primeval state featured the same free agency which our Celestial state will have.  Just how wild and woolly was it in heaven?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If you have the skills of Orson Scott Card, go for it.

ewww....

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

On what do you base this belief?

Because natural law entails time & space.  Normative Judeo-Christian theology rejects that, arguing that God exists outside of space and time, that He created space & time, natural law, and everything, and that He was the first uncaused cause, etc, which means that He is responsible for everything, including evil.  The self-contradiction destroys God, just as Lehi observes in 2 Nephi 2:11-13.

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Then why assume we are finite?

Because we are all forever limited by natural law, at every step of existence.  It impinges absolutely at every stage and in every aspect of our being.  Even God is limited by natural law:

Quote

if ye shall say there is no law, . . . if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. 2 Ne 2:13

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Omnipotence leads to absurd paradoxes which  make hash of normative Judeo-Christian theology, which LDS theology has fortunately abandoned.  God cannot be all-knowing or all-powerful in a universe of coeternal beings who have free agency.  That would be a logical contradiction in terms.  Natural law keeps us all within bounds.

I suppose your understanding depends on how you define omnipotence. 

Do you define it as ALL power, or as all of the power that our kind of being can have, like the ability to do all of the good AND evil things that our kind of being can do, with God choosing to do only all of those good things?

And I suppose that also depends on what sex that God person is, too, because a male God person can do only some of all of the good things that our kind of being can do while a female God person can do some other good things that a male God person cannot do.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Ahab

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Because natural law entails time & space.

Could entail more though as far as we know and we are simply not aware of it because we exist in time and space. 

“Because we are all forever limited by natural law”

But if there has been no beginning nor will there be an end, there is already one form of infinite nature within natural law. Perhaps there are others. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

On 10/12/2019 at 10:55 AM, Nofear said:

So, how would you answer these questions?

• If an Exalted Being wants to change the physiological gender of their resurrected body, is that possible?

Not as I understand what our resurrection will be.  My understanding is that our mortal body will be restored to the state of Adam and Eve before they fell, so that if we are an Adam then our body will be restored to the kind of body Adam had in the garden of Eden before he fell, and if we are an Eve then our body will be restored to the kind of body Eve had in the garden of Eden before she fell.

On 10/12/2019 at 10:55 AM, Nofear said:

• Why has Eternal and Celestial Society chosen a gender binary mechanism?

Because when a spirit child is born it is either a son or a daughter of heavenly parents who are reproducing themselves.

On 10/12/2019 at 10:55 AM, Nofear said:

• If gender existed before our spirit body, what does "gender" mean for a something that has no body?

That the gender of a person is not determined until he or she is born as either a male or a female, I think.

On 10/12/2019 at 10:55 AM, Nofear said:

• If gender did not exist before our spirit body, what was the mechanism whereby our Heavenly Parents chose a gender? Is that an immutable choice?

I don't know but I suppose it had something to do with our heavenly parent's biology as they reproduced themselves as a whole other person.  They may have done something in particular to determine the sex/gender of each of their spirit children, or they could have just allowed it to happen naturally as it does for heavenly parents.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I consider these assumptions to be false.  All exalted beings are finite, limited, and exist within time & space and natural law.  None can be omnipotent or omniscient.  They are not chameleons.

We have no reason to believe that being binary is a choice, nor that Celestial society is free from problems.  We have only to reflect upon one particular Divine Assembly in which Satan prevailed upon 1/3 of the host of heaven to apostatize.  It has never been and never will be easy.

Just like the infinite atonement, we had no beginning and we shall have no end -- on into infinity.  That is correct LDS theology.

We have no way in which to answer any of those questions.

Thanks.

Too much work to take it on

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Could entail more though as far as we know and we are simply not aware of it because we exist in time and space. 

“Because we are all forever limited by natural law”

But if there has been no beginning nor will there be an end, there is already one form of infinite nature within natural law. Perhaps there are others. 

Perhaps.  Science is limited by what is known.  What, for example, existed before the Big Bang?  We do not, and we cannot know.  Maybe God knows.

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Perhaps.  Science is limited by what is known.  What, for example, existed before the Big Bang?  We do not, and we cannot know.  Maybe God knows.

If anyone knows, then I would definitely say that yes He is someone who definitely knows.  And I like it when he shares his thoughts with me about some things, sometimes.

[Nofear]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

You appealed to you inner physicist (and allude to quantum and theoretical physics in point 1 above), to which I responded to here: Posted 20 hours ago (edited) ...but haven't heard back from you.

I didn't find much common ground upon which to reply. Though, curiously, I like you suspect that intelligent matter can act without being acted upon (as opposed to all other stuff in the universe). This, unfortunately violates the laws of conservation of energy, momentum, angular momentum and breaks a whole host of other laws governing physical  matter. We have no framework upon which to discuss intelligent matter. And so I set it aside for the time being.

I quite agree that "gender is an eternal principle". That does not mean it extends into the infinite past. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19.4-12?lang=eng#4-12

[Nofear]

@Robert F. Smith, @CV75

I quite agree that omnipotence and omniscience lead to paradoxes when understood in the ultimate way (though less obviously so for omniscience). Consequently, I always understand the term to be with caveats. The scriptures say God is all powerful. We can both agree that God has all power that can be had.

What we don't agree on is that our spirit bodies extend into the infinite past and are uncreate. To say that I have always and will always exist as a immensely complex creature with ten fingers and toes, a colon, nose, belly-button, etc. into the the infinite past well, to paraphrase Eliza R. Snow, "No, the thought makes reason stare!" Indeed, to me the thought is as worthy of the severe mockery that Parley P. Pratt gave the Protestant and Catholic God of no parts or passions (see Key to the Science of Theology). It is about as close to a literal analog of "turtles all the way down" that one can get. But, I have to admit that, officially, our doctrine makes no claim on the subject.

For me the past history goes as:

1. A part of us existed, uncreate, eternal, and extending into the infinite past -- as "intelligences"*.
2. Our Heavenly Parents laid hold upon these "intelligences" and housed them an a spirit body. Thus we were begotten and born.
3. Our Heavenly Earthly Parents also house these intelligences and their accompanying spirit body in physical bodies. Thus we were begotten and born (on earth).
4. There will be a time of separation of the intelligence+spirit body and a physical body. The resurrection, however, will rectify that separation.

 

* To me, these entities were "simple", without parts or components. It is a opinion derived from reason. Consequently for me, gender appears at stage 2 and not before. Theologically, there is no statement about this and so I don't hold it against members for believing otherwise beyond believing they are foolish and haven't thought about it to any degree.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Nofear

[Nofear]

Another aspect upon which we disagree is to what extent exalted beings have control over their resurrected bodies. The idea that don't have any control makes no logical sense. I can alter my physical person quite a bit. It is within today's technology to modify my heart, skin color, face, and much more. With genetic alteration, I can even alter the very code that programs my physical body. That, that is possible even with our very limited understanding and capability. I see exalted beings as being capable of so very, very much more... if they wanted too. I don't say they do but only that they could. Even if an exalted being were pre-disposed to variation and change on a whim for change's sake, I would likely see him or her, over aeons of time, settling on a look and form and not changing much from that. Ability does not mean they do.

But, I most definitely believe they. exalted beings, have it within their power to adjust their bodies (physical and spirit) in profound and potentially complete ways. Others, disagree with me. That's fine. The question, for those that might share similarity with my position*, is whether or not "gender" is within the realm of "potentially complete ways" or gender outside of that realm? Part of the answer to that question is a clear sentiment about what, exactly, do we mean by gender and what does it mean to be an eternal principle. I personally answer the latter question by supposing that the male-female paradigm is one that the society of exalted beings "decided"** as being the most conducive to celestial society. But, I don't know why exactly and so I thought to ask if others had thoughts on the issue.

 

 

* For those that believe in much more limited and less powerful exalted beings the question is moot and they are free to mock the position for reducing to absurdity. Not being in that camp, I think such mockery would be premature and ultimately bite them in their behinds, but I won't begrudge them the behavior.

** The question of "decided" is also moot for some. To them, gender is a principle that existed in intelligences into the infinite past. Logically, I'm not in that same camp of thought.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Omnipotence leads to absurd paradoxes which  make hash of normative Judeo-Christian theology, which LDS theology has fortunately abandoned.  God cannot be all-knowing or all-powerful in a universe of coeternal beings who have free agency.  That would be a logical contradiction in terms.  Natural law keeps us all within bounds.

I like how you phrased this.

Omnipotence and omniscience are always within a specific sphere.  Complete omnipotence and omniscience are absurd ideas.

[Ahab]

18 minutes ago, Nofear said:

@Robert F. Smith, @CV75

I quite agree that omnipotence and omniscience lead to paradoxes when understood in the ultimate way (though less obviously so for omniscience). Consequently, I always understand the term to be with caveats. The scriptures say God is all powerful. We can both agree that God has all power that can be had.

What we don't agree on is that our spirit bodies extend into the infinite past and are uncreate. To say that I have always and will always exist as a immensely complex creature with ten fingers and toes, a colon, nose, belly-button, etc. into the the infinite past well, to paraphrase Eliza R. Snow, "No, the thought makes reason stare!" Indeed, to me the thought is as worthy of the severe mockery that Parley P. Pratt gave the Protestant and Catholic God of no parts or passions (see Key to the Science of Theology). It is about as close to a literal analog of "turtles all the way down" that one can get. But, I have to admit that, officially, our doctrine makes no claim on the subject.

For me the past history goes as:

1. A part of us existed, uncreate, eternal, and extending into the infinite past -- as "intelligences"*.
2. Our Heavenly Parents laid hold upon these "intelligences" and housed them an a spirit body. Thus we were begotten and born.
3. Our Heavenly Parents also house these intelligences and their accompanying spirit body in physical bodies. Thus we were begotten and born (on earth).
4. There will be a time of separation of the intelligence+spirit body and a physical body. The resurrection, however, will rectify that separation.

 

* To me, these entities were "simple", without parts or components. It is a opinion derived from reason. Consequently for me, gender appears at stage 2 and not before. Theologically, there is no statement about this and so I don't hold it against members for believing otherwise beyond believing they are foolish and haven't thought about it to any degree.

What makes the most sense to me is that we are reproductions of our parents, and they are reproductions of their parents, etc forever backwards and forwards.  Otherwise you're thinking of an "intelligence" as some other kind of being than the kind our parents are or were.

We can see that is true in the mortal realm, where each kind of being reproduces after its own kind.  Each kind has a way of reproducing itself from something intrinsic to the kind of being it is, with each kind able to continue reproducing after its own kind.

 

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Another aspect upon which we disagree is to what extent exalted beings have control over their resurrected bodies. The idea that don't have any control makes no logical sense. I can alter my physical person quite a bit. It is within today's technology to modify my heart, skin color, face, and much more. With genetic alteration, I can even alter the very code that programs my physical body. That, that is possible even with our very limited understanding and capability. I see exalted beings as being capable of so very, very much more... if they wanted too. I don't say they do but only that they could. Even if an exalted being were pre-disposed to variation and change on a whim for change's sake, I would likely see him or her, over aeons of time, settling on a look and form and not changing much from that. Ability does not mean they do.

But, I most definitely believe they. exalted beings, have it within their power to adjust their bodies (physical and spirit) in profound and potentially complete ways. Others, disagree with me. That's fine.

So the resurrected Jesus of religious art could actually be a fair skinned blue eyed guy, not a olive skinned dark hair/eyed Jew?

If he wants to be...