Leader Vs. Manager Bishops?

[Duncan]

I have had great to awful Bishops as I'm sure everyone has.I remember a talk years ago from Hugh Nibley, something like leadership to Management: the fatal shift. He seemed to think that leadership was better than management, I can't recall why but he seemed to think it was better. I am thinking though what would a leader Bishop look like? It seems like  now that they get acted upon from the Stake and don't seem to have much autonomy to do their own thing and they get dealing with or managing the little bushfires that crop up in people's lives so the Bishop is dealing with that and trying to prevent the fire. I know that now the EQ and RS have some of that responsibility but at least here, either people take care of their own stuff or they aren't coming to us and still going to the Bishop. 

[Bernard Gui]

32 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have had great to awful Bishops as I'm sure everyone has.I remember a talk years ago from Hugh Nibley, something like leadership to Management: the fatal shift. He seemed to think that leadership was better than management, I can't recall why but he seemed to think it was better. I am thinking though what would a leader Bishop look like? It seems like  now that they get acted upon from the Stake and don't seem to have much autonomy to do their own thing and they get dealing with or managing the little bushfires that crop up in people's lives so the Bishop is dealing with that and trying to prevent the fire. I know that now the EQ and RS have some of that responsibility but at least here, either people take care of their own stuff or they aren't coming to us and still going to the Bishop. 

Much like my son Abogadissimo, I reckon.

His ward has a huge youth program. He has observed that he now feels he has two huge callings.....bishop and YM President. Quite a burden.

I likened being a bishop akin to a duck in a forest fire.....trying to stomp out all the fires coming your way with your little webbed feet. One fire out, and another comes up behind and singes your tail feathers, so you spin around to stomp that one out, and then another and another, until you are spinning and spinning and spinning.

Reminds me of the old elephant joke. Why do ducks have flat feet? To stomp out forest fires. Why do elephants have flat feet? To stomp out flaming ducks. Maybe the Stake President is the elephant?

Then there was the description given to my bishopric by our HC trainer... everyone around you has monkeys on their backs and are trying to move them onto your back. The trick to being a good bishop is learning to deflect monkeys in transit.

It's been two years since I was in a bishopric (ward clerk), but I didn't notice a lot of micromanaging from the stake level. Things may be different now.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

I also recall one interview with my SP. I was pretty much overwhelmed by the problems I was dealing with and wondered if I could continue. He said, "Well, bishop. Think of this. All the problems you can't deal with end up here with me." I thought to myself, "Multiply that times 7 wards." Nuff said.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Boanerges]

I think the reality is that the church needs both, and traditionally both roles have fallen to the bishop. I think the change to putting some of the load on the elders quorum and Relief Society presidencies (and ministers) is a great idea, but even its stated purpose is not to define the difference in the roles. I also think the cultural shift is going to be very slow and take time, and will take the concerted effort of the bishops to make it happen. I like Bernard's analogy with the monkeys. Elders quorum and Relief Society presidents have experienced the same thing, and that will probably increase. I agree, the trick is to recognize the transiting monkeys and keep them from transiting. A similar argument has been made with administering and ministering. Again, the church needs both, but do both of them need to be done by the same person?

[smac97]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have had great to awful Bishops as I'm sure everyone has.I remember a talk years ago from Hugh Nibley, something like leadership to Management: the fatal shift. He seemed to think that leadership was better than management, I can't recall why but he seemed to think it was better. I am thinking though what would a leader Bishop look like?

A few attributes:

1. Manager: The bishop ensures the meetings, programs, finances, and facilities of the Church are being properly administered/utilized.  

2. Leader: The bishop functions as a "Judge in Israel," which mostly pertains to authorizing financial and other forms of assistance (food orders, commodities orders, therapy sessions, etc.), and also administering disciplinary measures (formal and informal).

3. Leader: The bishop provides general pastoral/spiritual care and guidance, within a confined sphere.  He should make all members and visitors feel welcomed and valued.  I think bishops ought not try to play the role of a mental health therapist, particularly as to clinical issues, sexual questions, etc.

4. Leader: The bishop focuses on the welfare of the youth in the ward.

5. Leader/Manager: The bishop ensures the doctrines are properly taught, personal and political opinions are not taught, focusing on the Savior is paramount, etc.

Bishops are both.  "Management" tends to take up a lot of time, hence the need to delegate.  Ideally, bishops should be focused more on leadership and pastoral care.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 10, 2020 by smac97

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, smac97 said:

A few attributes:

1. Manager: The bishop ensures the meetings, programs, finances, and facilities of the Church are being properly administered/utilized.  

2. Leader: The bishop functions as a "Judge in Israel," which mostly pertains to authorizing financial and other forms of assistance (food orders, commodities orders, therapy sessions, etc.), and also administering disciplinary measures (formal and informal).

3. Leader: The bishop provides general pastoral/spiritual care and guidance, within a confined sphere.  He should make all members and visitors feel welcomed and valued.  I think bishops ought not try to play the role of a mental health therapist, particularly as to clinical issues, sexual questions, etc.

4. Leader: The bishop focuses on the welfare of the youth in the ward.

5. Leader/Manager: The bishop ensures the doctrines are properly taught, personal and political opinions are not taught, focusing on the Savior is paramount, etc.

Bishops are both.  "Management" tends to take up a lot of time, hence the need to delegate.  Ideally, bishops should be focused more on leadership and pastoral care.

Thanks,

-Smac

Granted this was in the late '70s. We were in a regional priesthood training meeting with a general authority. He was talking about bishops delegating things to their counselors. Being the 2nd counselor, I decided to browse through my copy of the Handbook that I had brought to the meeting. I added up all the meetings I should be attending. It was about 80 every month. I counted the regular church meetings in the total. That was a little less than 3 meetings every day. I asked the leaders if anyone had ever made this kind of tally. Nope. But they thought it was interesting. Any counselors here? Have things changed much?

Edited February 10, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[rockpond]

54 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have had great to awful Bishops as I'm sure everyone has.I remember a talk years ago from Hugh Nibley, something like leadership to Management: the fatal shift. He seemed to think that leadership was better than management, I can't recall why but he seemed to think it was better. I am thinking though what would a leader Bishop look like? It seems like  now that they get acted upon from the Stake and don't seem to have much autonomy to do their own thing and they get dealing with or managing the little bushfires that crop up in people's lives so the Bishop is dealing with that and trying to prevent the fire. I know that now the EQ and RS have some of that responsibility but at least here, either people take care of their own stuff or they aren't coming to us and still going to the Bishop. 

I think that the bishop has to be both a leader and a manager.  But my hope, especially as I am currently serving as an executive secretary, is that he is able to delegate as much of the management* as possible to me and to the ward clerk.

*By this, I don't mean to usurp any decision making authority.  I try to make it so that my Bishop can make timely and inspired decisions and that we can do the work of executing those decisions so that he can stay focused on ministering and pastoral care.

[HappyJackWagon]

I used to see this question posed often, but in terms of "ministering" versus "administering".

IMO- both are valuable and essential tools. Some people will naturally have greater strengths in one area or the other. But I always took exception with the implication that "ministering" was better than "administering". I've seen bishops who are so unorganized that the ward stops functioning in  useful ways, BUT that bishop is very good one on one with people. So the bishop leaves the 99 and ministers to the one, but meanwhile the 99 suffer. Administration meets the needs of the many (which often includes the 1). I find that many people don't trust a bishop to minister to them if the ward organization is a dumpster fire.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

19 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Granted this was in the late '70s. We were in a regional priesthood training meeting with a general authority. He was talking about bishops delegating things to their counselors. Being the 2nd counselor, I decided to browse through my copy of the Handbook that I had brought to the meeting. I added up all the meetings I should be attending. It was about 80 every month. I counted the regular church meetings in the total. That was a little less than 3 meetings every day. I asked the leaders if anyone had ever made this kind of tally. Nope. But they thought it was interesting. Any counselors here? Have things changed much?

I'm serving as bishop right now. I did a count of my mandated meetings for the month of January (a slower month than many) and counted 28. This doesn't include things like youth interviews or other interviews. That would put the count up to about 70. 

My counselors were in 24 of the 28 meetings, but did fewer interviews. I'd say their meeting count would be closer to 50. 

For some context, our ward has about 160 active members and a little over 40 active youth. 

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I've found this thread pretty interesting so far. 

I've always framed the difference between management vs. leadership as one of vision like this--

 

 A leader has vision and is able to effectively convey that vision to others (with accompanying "buy in"). 

A manager holds things together and is an effective administrator. 

 

Bishops (and other church officers) need both skill sets, but fantastic leaders have a strong sense of vision and purpose. 

[Duncan]

32 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

I've found this thread pretty interesting so far. 

I've always framed the difference between management vs. leadership as one of vision like this--

 

 A leader has vision and is able to effectively convey that vision to others (with accompanying "buy in"). 

A manager holds things together and is an effective administrator. 

 

Bishops (and other church officers) need both skill sets, but fantastic leaders have a strong sense of vision and purpose. 

Those are good insights! Thank you!! That's the thing are Bishops having their own visions or are part of someone else's vision? I say that because I remember years of Stake Mission plans and Mission plans and ward misison plans and they weren't all the same and the ward had to fix it to follow the Stake who then fought with the mission and it seemed all over the place and one organization was following another and it seemed like chaos that never got resolved really, ou ward doesn't have a ward mission plan even now!

[stemelbow]

The best bishop I remember having was the guy who sat back and let everyone run the show.  He sat more in the background.  The wards often function just fine without his over-embellished busy-ness.  The busy-body and cult of personality bishops were always the worst, if you ask me.  They certainly seemed to see themselves as good managers and leaders, and likely in terms of the ways of the world, they were.  The contradiction of being of the world or good at the ways of the world, and yet condemning the same traits in everyone else or for everything else perhaps got in the way of me seeing too much positive in their service.  

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The best bishop I remember having was the guy who sat back and let everyone run the show.  He sat more in the background.  The wards often function just fine without his over-embellished busy-ness.  The busy-body and cult of personality bishops were always the worst, if you ask me.  They certainly seemed to see themselves as good managers and leaders, and likely in terms of the ways of the world, they were.  The contradiction of being of the world or good at the ways of the world, and yet condemning the same traits in everyone else or for everything else perhaps got in the way of me seeing too much positive in their service.  

I wish I could give you a rep point for that! the worst SP we had, is still living in the Stake, but he's OLD SCHOOL LDS, ugh. But his Stake Conference talks were about making fun of his wife and single women and talking about himself for half an hour. I hope to heaven above he doesn't become our first Temple President, he's over 75 but who knows.

[Jeanne]

I may be off my rocker here as I don't always understand the new responsibilities now...but I was wondering how difficult would it be for high council men help out with interviews of their wards?

[rockpond]

29 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I may be off my rocker here as I don't always understand the new responsibilities now...but I was wondering how difficult would it be for high council men help out with interviews of their wards?

I don't see a reason why that couldn't be done in terms of priesthood authority.  And I could certainly see President Nelson directing such a change (for recommend renewals with any worthiness concerns being directed to the SP).

I think the argument against is that it would limit the ability of the stake presidency to get to know members of their stake.  As a bishop's counselor, I felt that recommend renewals were a valuable opportunity to build relationships and offer support to ward members.  I imagine stake presidencies may feel the same (but I have not ever served in that capacity).

Edited February 11, 2020 by rockpond

[stemelbow]

I've never heard a greater waste of time than 70-80 meetings a month for someone.   Every time I met with the bishop was a waste of time--he knew it and I knew it and we often joked or commented on that.  Sorry to say.  

[Bob Crockett]

According to the D&C, the true pastor in the Church is the stake president.  Bishops' duties have gone up and down and up over the years.   An ancestor of mine was the first bishop in the Payson Ward.  He served for 25 years.  A "priesthood president" was called every five years to run the ward's ecclesiastical functions.    Seem familiar?

Edited February 11, 2020 by Bob Crockett

[MustardSeed]

Over the years I’ve been amazed by the things people call on their bishops for. 
 

I only called on mine once in my life.  He was helpful but I’ve since learned to call on bishop only for worthiness issues.  The rest can be otherwise directed. 

[bsjkki]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Over the years I’ve been amazed by the things people call on their bishops for. 
 

I only called on mine once in my life.  He was helpful but I’ve since learned to call on bishop only for worthiness issues.  The rest can be otherwise directed. 

I am astounded by this too. I brought up a personal issue once and found it to be a waste of time. I prefer keeping the Bishop out of my personal life.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I am astounded by this too. I brought up a personal issue once and found it to be a waste of time. I prefer keeping the Bishop out of my personal life.

same, I read Elder McConkie one time as saying the less the Bishop knows the better. One time I shared a very personal item with the Bishop and he read it to the ward council, without my permission. So, fool me once...

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Over the years I’ve been amazed by the things people call on their bishops for. 
 

I only called on mine once in my life.  He was helpful but I’ve since learned to call on bishop only for worthiness issues.  The rest can be otherwise directed. 

This. Our current ward executive secretary gate keeps a lot just to keep the insipid and trivial out. Wanting the bishop to discipline their children, getting advice on whether they should take a job offer, what kinds of musical instrument their kid should learn to play. You push back or suggest that is something they should decide on their own and they act as if you are treating their very soul as worthless. We have pushed most of the welfare into the EQ and RS and only when they think help is needed from the bishop does it go to the bishop.

My stake is driving me nuts right now. They had an auditor training but somehow wanted all the clerks to come. I skipped it due to my niece’s birthday party and I am getting harassed and told it was mandatory. I had to bite my tongue and not point out that the last auditor they sent out I had to train so I am not sure their training regimen is that good. That and the Area Presidency decided that they want Annual Histories early because I guess they know better than the General Authorities who set an official deadline so I had to stay up late getting it done “late”. Then the Area supposedly had the brilliant idea of doing Youth Committee meetings every week with the Bishop and the Young Women’s Presidency. We just got another memo from the stake reminding us that they need all kinds of reps for YSA and SA right after they just took all the YSAs for the new YSA Ward and they just cut our attendance to below 150 and we can barely fill the organization we do have. We got a reminder to keep announcements brief the same week we also got a two page letter to be read in full in sacrament meeting. Another note about having fewer meetings the same week they are mandating minimum numbers of meetings above that in the general handbook. I am just waiting for them to start a weekly meeting on cutting down the number of meetings we have.

Gospel is still true..............somehow..........

Edit: Just got my official audit notice. It is scheduled in the middle of sacrament meeting. (Sigh)

Edited February 12, 2020 by The Nehor

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This. Our current ward executive secretary gate keeps a lot just to keep the insipid and trivial out. Wanting the bishop to discipline their children, getting advice on whether they should take a job offer, what kinds of musical instrument their kid should learn to play. You push back or suggest that is something they should decide on their own and they act as if you are treating their very soul as worthless. We have pushed most of the welfare into the EQ and RS and only when they think help is needed from the bishop does it go to the bishop.

My stake is driving me nuts right now. They had an auditor training but somehow wanted all the clerks to come. I skipped it due to my niece’s birthday party and I am getting harassed and told it was mandatory. I had to bite my tongue and not point out that the last auditor they sent out I had to train so I am not sure their training regimen is that good. That and the Area Presidency decided that they want Annual Histories early because I guess they know better than the General Authorities who set an official deadline so I had to stay up late getting it done “late”. Then the Area supposedly had the brilliant idea of doing Youth Committee meetings every week with the Bishop and the Young Women’s Presidency. We just got another memo from the stake reminding us that they need all kinds of reps for YSA and SA right after they just took all the YSAs for the new YSA Ward and they just cut our attendance to below 150 and we can barely fill the organization we do have. We got a reminder to keep announcements brief the same week we also got a two page letter to be read in full in sacrament meeting. Another note about having fewer meetings the same week they are mandating minimum numbers of meetings above that in the general handbook. I am just waiting for them to start a weekly meeting on cutting down the number of meetings we have.

Gospel is still true..............somehow..........

There is a  level of entitlement in the church that I don't think is very healthy. Meaning, the church (leaders & members alike) expect volunteers to act like employees. It's bad enough treating people who "volunteer" for certain positions to live up to demanding expectations, but it's even worse, IMO, to be so demanding of people who have been "drafted" into positions. Is it reasonable to have "mandatory" meetings and get upset with members who don't attend, when everything they do they are doing free of charge and out of the goodness of their hearts? I don't think so.

In my opinion, the church, its leaders and members alike, should be generally more thankful for the service people render, instead of always expecting they do more.

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 12:24 PM, Duncan said:

I have had great to awful Bishops as I'm sure everyone has.I remember a talk years ago from Hugh Nibley, something like leadership to Management: the fatal shift. He seemed to think that leadership was better than management, I can't recall why but he seemed to think it was better. I am thinking though what would a leader Bishop look like? It seems like  now that they get acted upon from the Stake and don't seem to have much autonomy to do their own thing and they get dealing with or managing the little bushfires that crop up in people's lives so the Bishop is dealing with that and trying to prevent the fire. I know that now the EQ and RS have some of that responsibility but at least here, either people take care of their own stuff or they aren't coming to us and still going to the Bishop. 

I work for a large corporation. I'm a manager but I'm also expected to lead my team to accomplish the goals of the organization. While I have some autonomy, that autonomy is quite limited as it must fit within the box the organization has set. The organization, whether a company or a church sets general goals and has guidelines and policies that must be followed. When people are hired/called/drafted into positions within the organization they NEVER have full reign to do whatever they want. They are shown the box and given some autonomy for how they function within that box. That's the best anyone can really hope for. Even CEO's, Presidents, and prophets are held to standards and expectations of those they lead, as well as boards of directors and councils of apostles.

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This. Our current ward executive secretary gate keeps a lot just to keep the insipid and trivial out. Wanting the bishop to discipline their children, getting advice on whether they should take a job offer, what kinds of musical instrument their kid should learn to play. You push back or suggest that is something they should decide on their own and they act as if you are treating their very soul as worthless. We have pushed most of the welfare into the EQ and RS and only when they think help is needed from the bishop does it go to the bishop.

My stake is driving me nuts right now. They had an auditor training but somehow wanted all the clerks to come. I skipped it due to my niece’s birthday party and I am getting harassed and told it was mandatory. I had to bite my tongue and not point out that the last auditor they sent out I had to train so I am not sure their training regimen is that good. That and the Area Presidency decided that they want Annual Histories early because I guess they know better than the General Authorities who set an official deadline so I had to stay up late getting it done “late”. Then the Area supposedly had the brilliant idea of doing Youth Committee meetings every week with the Bishop and the Young Women’s Presidency. We just got another memo from the stake reminding us that they need all kinds of reps for YSA and SA right after they just took all the YSAs for the new YSA Ward and they just cut our attendance to below 150 and we can barely fill the organization we do have. We got a reminder to keep announcements brief the same week we also got a two page letter to be read in full in sacrament meeting. Another note about having fewer meetings the same week they are mandating minimum numbers of meetings above that in the general handbook. I am just waiting for them to start a weekly meeting on cutting down the number of meetings we have.

Gospel is still true..............somehow..........

Edit: Just got my official audit notice. It is scheduled in the middle of sacrament meeting. (Sigh)

I'm glad I'm outta that cra cra! I think often of the stress I had in my active days. I feel you, and hope things get better.

[bluebell]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This. Our current ward executive secretary gate keeps a lot just to keep the insipid and trivial out. Wanting the bishop to discipline their children, getting advice on whether they should take a job offer, what kinds of musical instrument their kid should learn to play. You push back or suggest that is something they should decide on their own and they act as if you are treating their very soul as worthless. We have pushed most of the welfare into the EQ and RS and only when they think help is needed from the bishop does it go to the bishop.

My stake is driving me nuts right now. They had an auditor training but somehow wanted all the clerks to come. I skipped it due to my niece’s birthday party and I am getting harassed and told it was mandatory. I had to bite my tongue and not point out that the last auditor they sent out I had to train so I am not sure their training regimen is that good. That and the Area Presidency decided that they want Annual Histories early because I guess they know better than the General Authorities who set an official deadline so I had to stay up late getting it done “late”. Then the Area supposedly had the brilliant idea of doing Youth Committee meetings every week with the Bishop and the Young Women’s Presidency. We just got another memo from the stake reminding us that they need all kinds of reps for YSA and SA right after they just took all the YSAs for the new YSA Ward and they just cut our attendance to below 150 and we can barely fill the organization we do have. We got a reminder to keep announcements brief the same week we also got a two page letter to be read in full in sacrament meeting. Another note about having fewer meetings the same week they are mandating minimum numbers of meetings above that in the general handbook. I am just waiting for them to start a weekly meeting on cutting down the number of meetings we have.

Gospel is still true..............somehow..........

Edit: Just got my official audit notice. It is scheduled in the middle of sacrament meeting. (Sigh)

I would have struggled not to reply "I'm a volunteer not an employee. Nothing I do for this calling is mandatory."